27 replies to this topic

[wjwalsh]

mnn727, on Oct 18 2004, 08:23 AM, said:

Quote

Well, I've read enough to learn that Brigham Young did in fact believe Adam is our Heavenly Father.

So, what you are saying is you;ve never actually read BY's sermons, you've just read what Anti's wrote about his sermons with selective quotes taken out of context.  I see.

mnn727,

Brigham Young taught that Adam was God.  There are many, many sources to that effect not only from Brigham Young, but from many early Church leaders.  Now, you can explain the teachings in various ways, but he did in fact teach it.  I would refer you not to anti-Mormon sources, but a Master's thesis from a BYU religion professor, Rodney Turner, for more information.  I also think FAIR has a copy of Van Hale's article on Adam-God somewhere on their site.  Van Hale was also a Mormon, not an anti-Mormon.

I think that denying historical reality is less than helpful to either the Church's reputation or your own personal growth.

WJW

[gaucho]

mnn727, on Oct 18 2004, 08:23 AM, said:

So, what you are saying is you;ve never actually read BY's sermons, you've just read what Anti's wrote about his sermons with selective quotes taken out of context.  I see.

No, I've read the sermons in total. I do agree that anti's use partial quotes to try and change the intended meaning of many of our doctrines. But I have read the sermons in their entirety and early church leaders have recorded in their diary's specificly as to this doctrine. It was at one time part of the temple endowment.

I personally do not know whether it is true, especially since latter day prophets have denounced it and it appears that BY also taught in other sermoms the more accepted belief of who Adam is. But, I do not reject it.  I beleive once all the mysteries are revealed, there will be much stranger things than this that will tun out to be true. For more info on Adam God, check this out.

http://www.koz2.org/html/adam_god.html

[Jesso]

My question is, how do you account for the time when Brigham Young in the Deseret News article in the last Adam-God thread where Brigham Young says that Adam is Micheal, a great prince and Elohoim tells him "Go ye and make an earth."

Edited by Jesso, 18 October 2004 - 10:11 AM.

[wjwalsh]

Jesso, on Oct 18 2004, 10:10 AM, said:

My question is, how do you account for the time when Brigham Young in the Deseret News article in the last Adam-God thread where Brigham Young says that Adam is Micheal, a great prince and Elohoim tells him "Go ye and make an earth."

What is there to account for?  (I am trying to understand your exact issue)

WJW

[Jesso]

I guess I'm asking "Isn't Elohoim God?"

[gaucho]

Jesso, on Oct 18 2004, 10:10 AM, said:

My question is, how do you account for the time when Brigham Young in the Deseret News article in the last Adam-God thread where Brigham Young says that Adam is Micheal, a great prince and Elohoim tells him "Go ye and make an earth."

This would be one of the times that BY appeared to teach the identity of God and Adam as we believe and understand today. On the other hand, if I was trying to defend the Adam God Doctrine, which I am not, I would say that Eloheim is our spiritual grandfather.  Adam, who was the first man on this Earth is our spiritual father, or our Heavenly Father acting under the direction of his father who is Eloheim, our grandfather. Do I believe this? No. But stranger things than this may turn out to be true.

[wjwalsh]

Jesso, on Oct 18 2004, 10:54 AM, said:

I guess I'm asking "Isn't Elohoim God?"

I dunno.  Who/What is Elohim? And Who/What is God?  I am not trying to bother you, but just point out that these are ambiguous words.

WJW

[wjwalsh]

gaucho, on Oct 18 2004, 10:58 AM, said:

I would say that Eloheim is our spiritual grandfather.  Adam, who was the first man on this Earth is our spiritual father, or our Heavenly Father acting under the direction of his father who is Eloheim, our grandfather. Do I believe this? No. But stranger things than this may turn out to be true.

Or, maybe Elohim is just a symbol, representing the entire patriarchal chain of Gods.  We normally think of Elohim as the ultimate God, but If we say there was no grand beginning ('If Ye Could Hie to Kolob'), then there was no ultimate God.

Our minds have a natural philosophical tendency for look for simplicity and concreteness.  Maybe we are allowed to view Elohim as a concrete Father God, but BY was teaching us something more expansive.

WJW