339 replies to this topic

[Zakuska]

Rob Bowman, on 15 November 2010 - 03:06 PM, said:

This statement seems to presuppose that had God tried to restore the church before 1830, he would have had to force people to accept Him. I thought we agreed that the Christians of the Great Apostasy period ca. 120-1820 were not at fault. Now you seem to be suggesting that God could not have found a hospitable group of people to accept the Restoration prior to 1830.

Well lets see Rob.  How many "State mandated religions" were there during that time? Constantine comes to mind.  Then the Church of England.  Then we have the puritains fleeing religious persecution to the USA.

There had to be a reformation to set the stage for the restoration, and religious freedom.

Edited by Zakuska, 15 November 2010 - 03:59 PM.

[Hick Preacher]

Vane in <<<    >>>> quotes



Vance-

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<<<I don't think that is the right question to ask. To me the question should be "when does the acquisition of saving knowledge begin?">>>

The influence of the Holy Ghost is everywhere, and in all people, even the profane to some degree.    

This is evident from Romans 1:20  

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20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

And in John 1:

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1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5   And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6  There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8  He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

So the knowledge of salvation, by the Holy Ghost is to a small degree in all men.
This is because the Holy Ghost has many different offices in which He serves.

So human salvation begins at birth in some sense-- because the influence of the Spirit it there touching all humans to some small degree.

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<<<No. But for most of the people that have lived so far, that won't occur while in mortality. We can only assume that the Holy Ghost operates in the spirit world in the same fashion as in this world. By the end of the Millennium, everyone will have received the "LOH Gift of the Holy Ghost, either in person or by proxy.  



I don't think that is an accurate approach.

The Holy Ghost is the bringer of knowledge and truth. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost for the worthy.

The Melchizedek Priesthood is the dispenser of that right. >>>

The Melchizedek Priesthood is also a manager of the knowledge engine of Mormonism.

This is because the first principles and ordinances of the LDS Gospel form a pattern that cycles as the Mormons grows and learns in his/her religion. This places the Priesthood as a manager over the Mormon Church Member’s spiritural growth process.

First the person learns of a Mormon Principle—Like pay tithe, keep word of Wisdom,  are instructed that they have been called to serve a Church Position, and on and on----


Next they have Faith in it and decide to be obedient or do it— (FAITH PHASE)

Then  they live it or are obedient- they do it-- ( The Repentance phase) Such as pay tithe, attend meetings, are faithful in callings.

Then after they prove themselves be being faithful and doing this calling-- the Bishop or Stake Pres might interview them and  gives a  recommend- or advancement.

So they get a Priesthood perk – such as  Baptised,  They are ordained, given a higher Priesthood, get a Patriarchal blessing, get a temple recommend, get advanced in the Church, as called by a Priesthood leader---- and  in theory get MORE blessings from the Holy Ghost.
That is the Priesthood Ordinance stage (Baptism by Water at first, but baptism with Blessings of the Holy Ghost in later repeated cycles)


So the Priesthood give the Holy Ghost or manages Blessings through this cycle as revealed in the First Principles and Ordinances of the Gospel of Mormonism.
Faith
Repentance
Ordainance
Blessings of Holy Ghost-- Knowledge gained- Advancement in Mormonism


This is a cycle that is managed by the Priesthood—and empowered by the Holy Ghost—and a perk for Obedience is often indeed MORE KNOWLEDGE—a special kind of Knowledge  including A TESTAMONY.

This is some kind of partnership in Mormonism between the Holy Ghost, The Priesthood and the Church Member.  And it is all about Gaining Knowledge.   Faith-Repentance- Priesthood Ordinance-- then Gift of the Holy Ghost

So the person is walked through by the Priesthood who presides over him/her through repeating cycles of Faith---Repentance-- Ordinance-- and an increase of Knowledge by the GoHG--- over and over,  until they become a God.   This is why the Laying on of Hands is so critical in Mormonism to the Gift of the Holy Ghost, after Baptism.  It is a Priesthood demonstration, or an illustration of the cycle of Mormonism.   If you have an eye to see it--this principle and cycle is the inverted pentagram on the LDS temple-- the five points stand for each-- the one pointing down is for the Blessing that comes from obedience and enduring to the end.

This pattern or knowledge cycle is embedded in the 'First Principles and Ordinances of The Gospel" of Mormonism.  And is tied to the Mormon notion of The Gift of the Holy Ghost    






Some Mormon citations related to this teaching of Mormonism about the vital necessity of gaining knowledge.

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“And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.”
D&C 130:18-19

Knowledge is necessary to life and godliness. Woe unto you priests and divines who preach that knowledge is not necessary unto life and salvation. Take away Apostles, etc., take away knowledge, and you will find yourselves worthy of the damnation of hell. Knowledge is revelation. Hear, all ye brethren, this grand key: knowledge is the power of God unto salvation.”  


“Knowledge does away with darkness, suspense and doubt; for these cannot exist where knowledge is. … In knowledge there is power. God has more power than all other beings, because He has greater knowledge; and hence He knows how to subject all other beings to Him. He has power over all.”

“As far as we degenerate from God, we descend to the devil and lose knowledge, and without knowledge we cannot be saved, and while our hearts are filled with evil, and we are studying evil, there is no room in our hearts for good, or studying good. Is not God good? Then you be good; if He is faithful, then you be faithful. Add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, and seek for every good thing [see 2 Peter 1:5].



…

“… A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God.”

These four from --------- -----------------------Chapter 22: Gaining Knowledge of Eternal Truths,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007),261–270   from Martha Jane Knowlton Coray, reporting a discourse given by Joseph Smith on May 21, 1843, in Nauvoo, Illinois; Martha Jane Knowlton Coray, Notebook, Church Archives

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“Knowledge saves a man, and in the world of spirits a man cannot be exalted except by knowledge. “
“…but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before.”

  King Follet Discourse

Edited by Hick Preacher, 15 November 2010 - 03:38 PM.

[zerinus]

Rob Bowman, on 15 November 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

My question presupposes for the sake of argument the LDS claim that it was Christ's intention that the church should always have apostles and prophets.

That is right.

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If that claim is correct, then it isn't the fault of the Christians between 120 and 1820 that the church was apostate and ceased to exist on the earth.

I am sure it was not the fault of all of them. I am sure there would have been many who would have been worthy to have prophets and Apostles (and the fullness of the true Church) among them. But I would argue that the times and general atmosphere and condition of the people was such that that institution could not have been restored among them at that time. If it was, God would have restored it at that time.

I would like to ask you a question: Why did God allow the Israelites to remain in captivity in Egypt for 400 years before sending Moses to deliver them? Why didn't He send someone to deliver them 100, 200, or 300 years sooner? Were there no Israelites who deserved to have been rescued any sooner?

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Rather, if the LDS claim is correct, it would seem that it was God's own doing that the church ceased to exist on the earth. You seem to concede that point.

Well, it wasn't God's doing that it went into Apostasy; but it was God's doing to decide when the time was right for it to be restored.

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 15 November 2010 - 03:06 PM, said:

There is an ambiguity in your language (common on this point in LDS explanations that I have observed) that I would like to see cleared up. What do you mean by "the people as a whole"? Do you mean people in general in the Hellenistic world of the late first century?

I mean that there may have been some who didn't reject the apostles and their message.  But even these eventually died.  But with the death/disappearance of the apostles, the authority was lost.  The doctrines taught by the churches were corrupted.  Without the rightful shepherds the flock was left to the mercy of the wolves.  The wolves, as prophesied, did NOT spare the flock.  After this initial apostasy and loss, no fault can be placed on those that followed.

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This statement seems to presuppose that had God tried to restore the church before 1830, he would have had to force people to accept Him.

No, not really.  It presupposes that had God tried to restore the church before 1830, it would have failed to survive.  As it was, the true church barely survived.

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I thought we agreed that the Christians of the Great Apostasy period ca. 120-1820 were not at fault.

They were not at fault for the apostasy.

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Now you seem to be suggesting that God could not have found a hospitable group of people to accept the Restoration prior to 1830.

Finding a "hospitable group of people to accept the Restoration" is not the same as having an environment where that restoration could survive.

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Good luck coming up with a coherent account on this issue. I've never seen one.

It wouldn't matter what kind of account was presented, you still wouldn't accept it as reasonable.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You had written:

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The apostasy occurred because the people as a whole, rejected and murdered the apostles.

So I asked you to which people you referred as "the people as a whole": Christian people, or non-Christian people, or both? You didn't answer this question. Please answer it now: who, in your opinion, murdered the apostles?

[Ahab]

Rob Bowman, on 15 November 2010 - 03:00 PM, said:

Ahab,

As I have already pointed out, Luke says that Cornelius had given to him "the" gift of the Holy Spirit, not one of the gifts or a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but as we (LDS) who are familiar with the gifts of the Holy Spirit know, there is more than one gift of the Holy Spirit.

You seem to think the term "the" gift can only refer to only one particular gift, as if the word "the" can only refer to only that gift, but we can correctly and honestly state that Cornelius did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit he would be commanded and expected to receive after he was baptized even though he did receive the gift of the Holy Spirit that he did receive.

[Vance]

Hick Preacher, on 15 November 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

The influence of the Holy Ghost is everywhere, and in all people, even the profane to some degree.    

This is evident from Romans 1:20  

And in John 1:

That is the light of Christ or also called your conscience. It is given to every person to help distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong.  How it is administered, I couldn't say.

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So the knowledge of salvation, by the Holy Ghost is to a small degree in all men.

IF the light of Christ is administered by the Holy Ghost, then you would be correct.  But I don't know if that is the case.

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This is because the Holy Ghost has many different offices in which He serves.

I wouldn't use the word "offices" but rather capacities.

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So human salvation begins at birth in some sense-- because the influence of the Spirit it there touching all humans to some small degree.

IF the light of Christ is administered by the Holy Ghost, then you would be correct.  But then again, you could say that salvation began in the council in heaven before the world was.

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The Melchizedek Priesthood is also a manager of the knowledge engine of Mormonism.

I don't think the word "manager" is an accurate description.  Women, without holding the Priesthood, have access to as much knowledge as men do.

In that the Priesthood administers ordinances and with ordinances comes specific pieces of knowledge, you are correct.  But not all knowledge is related to the ordinances. Some comes by personal study, experience, and obedience.  The best way to know God is to do what He would do or in other words, be like Him and do His work.

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 15 November 2010 - 04:12 PM, said:

So I asked you to which people you referred as "the people as a whole": Christian people, or non-Christian people, or both? You didn't answer this question. Please answer it now: who, in your opinion, murdered the apostles?

Rob,
Nearly all of the epistles were written to address heresies that were creeping into the church.  The New Testament records accounts of "Christian" individuals and groups that were hindering the work of the apostles within the Church.  Paul describes these people as "wolves".  I don't know if any of them were involved in the death/disappearance of the apostles.

Now, if you want to use circular reasoning and claim that any individual who would participate is such activity wasn't a real "Christian" and then claim that "Christian" people weren't involved in instigating the apostasy, then delude yourself.

Paul was very clear when he said,
Acts 20:28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
  29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
  30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
  31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

I have never understood what part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand.  If the flock isn't spared, then what happened to it?

[Zakuska]

Vance, on 15 November 2010 - 04:30 PM, said:

Rob,
Nearly all of the epistles were written to address heresies that were creeping into the church.  The New Testament records accounts of "Christian" individuals and groups that were hindering the work of the apostles within the Church.  Paul describes these people as "wolves".  I don't know if any of them were involved in the death/disappearance of the apostles.

Now, if you want to use circular reasoning and claim that any individual who would participate is such activity wasn't a real "Christian" and then claim that "Christian" people weren't involved in instigating the apostasy, then delude yourself.

Paul was very clear when he said,
Acts 20:28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
  29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
  30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
  31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

I have never understood what part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand.  If the flock isn't spared, then what happened to it?

Then theres always his note to Tim cooberating his words in Acts.

• 2 Tim. 1: 15  15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Edited by Zakuska, 15 November 2010 - 05:10 PM.

[Zeta-Flux]

Rob Bowman, on 15 November 2010 - 09:39 AM, said:

It only appears twice in the Bible, in Acts 2:38 and 10:45, and Joseph was commenting on Acts 10. How could he not have meant to be referring to its meaning in that text?

One possibility I can think of is that he followed the convention given in the Book of Mormon.

[Rob Bowman]

Zeta-Flux,

You wrote:

Zeta-Flux, on 15 November 2010 - 05:10 PM, said:

One possibility I can think of is that he followed the convention given in the Book of Mormon.

But (1) he was commenting specifically on Acts 10, not on any passage in the Book of Mormon, and (2) I see nothing in the Book of Mormon that would suggest a different meaning for the expression there than in Acts.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

How about a straight answer? Are you asserting that Christians killed the apostles?

Vance, on 15 November 2010 - 04:30 PM, said:

Rob,
Nearly all of the epistles were written to address heresies that were creeping into the church.  The New Testament records accounts of "Christian" individuals and groups that were hindering the work of the apostles within the Church.  Paul describes these people as "wolves".  I don't know if any of them were involved in the death/disappearance of the apostles.

Now, if you want to use circular reasoning and claim that any individual who would participate is such activity wasn't a real "Christian" and then claim that "Christian" people weren't involved in instigating the apostasy, then delude yourself.

Paul was very clear when he said,
Acts 20:28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
  29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
  30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
  31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

I have never understood what part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand.  If the flock isn't spared, then what happened to it?

[Ahab]

Rob Bowman, on 15 November 2010 - 05:37 PM, said:

Are you asserting that Christians killed the apostles?

Come on now, Rob.  Shirley even you would admit that they weren't really true Christians.

[Hick Preacher]

'Vance'

Vance in quotes

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That is the light of Christ or also called your conscience. It is given to every person to help distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong.  How it is administered, I couldn't say.


If the light of Christ is administered by the Holy Ghost, then you would be correct.  But I don't know if that is the case.

I think there is only One Spirit of God, not three, four or five.

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Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

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<<<I wouldn't use the word "offices" but rather capacities.>>>

Does the Holy Ghost hold the Priesthood?  If so which office(s)?  He does hold at least one Priesthood office. Thus, holds the Priesthood.

See http://www.mormonbel...he_holy_ghost_1
If the Holy Ghost does God's work in Mormonism, He then must Hold the Priesthood.

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"The Holy Ghost is God's messenger to administer in all those priesthoods."

(HC 5:555)

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IF the light of Christ is administered by the Holy Ghost, then you would be correct.  But then again, you could say that salvation began in the council in heaven before the world was.

In Mormonism surely the light of Christ is administered by the Priesthood.

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I don't think the word "manager" is an accurate description.  Women, without holding the Priesthood, have access to as much knowledge as men do.

It is just a word.

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In that the Priesthood administers ordinances and with ordinances comes specific pieces of knowledge, you are correct.  But not all knowledge is related to the ordinances. Some comes by personal study, experience, and obedience.  The best way to know God is to do what He would do or in other words, be like Him and do His work.

of Course-

What Priesthood does the Third Member of the Godhead (Holy Ghost) hold?

Could then He self administer the Holy Ghost-- because He has authority?

[Vance]

Rob Bowman, on 15 November 2010 - 05:37 PM, said:

Vance,

How about a straight answer? Are you asserting that Christians killed the apostles?

Rob,
What part of;

Vance, on 15 November 2010 - 04:30 PM, said:

I don't know if any of them were involved in the death/disappearance of the apostles.

is not a straight answer?

[Zeta-Flux]

Rob Bowman, on 15 November 2010 - 05:36 PM, said:

But (1) he was commenting specifically on Acts 10, not on any passage in the Book of Mormon, and (2) I see nothing in the Book of Mormon that would suggest a different meaning for the expression there than in Acts.

Concerning point #2, I would recommend a more thorough investigation of the phrase, and how it was used in early Mormonism.  The phrases "power of the Holy Ghost" and "gift of the Holy Ghost" obtained very specific meanings pretty quickly.

Concerning point #1, I do not understand how this supports your position.  Was he not commenting on Acts 10 because there is a discrepancy between the wording there and Joseph's previous uses of the phrase "gift of the Holy Ghost"?  Was Joseph not clarifying the fact that the way the phrase is used in Acts 10 is not expressing what Mormons usually mean by the phrase?

Edited by Zeta-Flux, 15 November 2010 - 09:15 PM.

[Vance]

Hick Preacher, on 15 November 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

I think there is only One Spirit of God, not three, four or five.

I haven't said differently.

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Does the Holy Ghost hold the Priesthood?

That hasn't been revealed as far as I know.

Does it matter?  I don't see any reason to believe He is not fully authorized to do His work.

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In Mormonism surely the light of Christ is administered by the Priesthood.

There is no scriptural basis for that assumption that I am aware of.

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What Priesthood does the Third Member of the Godhead (Holy Ghost) hold?

I don't know if He has any.  What relevance does it make one way or the other?

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Could then He self administer the Holy Ghost-- because He has authority?

I don't know.  As far as I know there is no basis in scripture to indicate that this is the order that God has established.

[PacMan]

Bump.

[Hick Preacher]

Vance, on 15 November 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

I haven't said differently.


That hasn't been revealed as far as I know.

Does it matter?  I don't see any reason to believe He is not fully authorized to do His work.


There is no scriptural basis for that assumption that I am aware of.


I don't know if He has any.  What relevance does it make one way or the other?


I don't know.  As far as I know there is no basis in scripture to indicate that this is the order that God has established.

oh I guess I asked the wrong questions about LDS Pneumatology.

[cdowis]

Hick Preacher, on 16 November 2010 - 05:59 AM, said:

oh I guess I asked the wrong questions about LDS Pneumatology.

Let me see if I can clarify this, so that you can understand the nature of priesthood.

It does not stand between us and our relationship with God == it is not a conduit to His presence, but a very specific tool, which, among other things, is necessary to administer those ordinances which lead us back to His presence.  As Christ told Peter, Matt 18 [18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

It is also the power and authority to administer the affairs of the Kingdom of God here on earth.  It is not necessary for prayer, or to obtain inspirition through the Holy Spirit.  It is not the Light of Christ, or conscience.  But it is necessary to perform the ordinance of the laying on of hands to bestoy the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is the power to bind us to heaven in the afterlife through priesthood ordinances.

Edited by cdowis, 16 November 2010 - 08:04 AM.