Purpose of Polygamy before Sealings?

[Who Knows]

The first temple sealing for 'time and all eternity' took place on May 28, 1843 between Joseph and Emma. However, JS had married other women prior to that time.

I was under the assumption that the purpose of these polygamous marriages were to seal the women to Joseph, to ensure her exaltation.

Onto my question - what was the purpose of these plural marriages if they were not to 'seal' the couple together for 'time and all eternity'?

[Number 9]

To have a means of supporting and taking care of women and children with no provider. I mean, if there were enough men to go around there certainly would have been no need for polygamy. I haven't ever read that men were standing around without wives, saying, "Polygamy? Well, what about me??? I can't even find one single woman to be my wife!"

Remember the conditions of the time we are talking about - men who were husbands and fathers were killed becausue they believed. The Lord knew what was to come, as well - that many more men would be killed, and that women would be left without husbands and children without fathers. He knew that the kingdom needed to increase in population so it could grow in strength.

It seems like an obvious answer to me. Or don't you think the Lord could plan ahead?

[Who Knows]

To have a means of supporting and taking care of women and children with no provider. I mean, if there were enough men to go around there certainly would have been no need for polygamy. I haven't ever read that men were standing around without wives, saying, "Polygamy? Well, what about me??? I can't even find one single woman to be my wife!"

Remember the conditions of the time we are talking about - men who were husbands and fathers were killed becausue they believed. The Lord knew what was to come, as well - that many more men would be killed, and that women would be left without husbands and children without fathers. He knew that the kingdom needed to increase in population so it could grow in strength.

It seems like an obvious answer to me. Or don't you think the Lord could plan ahead?

You're not really still holding on to that excuse are you?

Many of JS's wives already had husbands or families to take care of them.

[AdamS]

To have a means of supporting and taking care of women and children with no provider. I mean, if there were enough men to go around there certainly would have been no need for polygamy. I haven't ever read that men were standing around without wives, saying, "Polygamy? Well, what about me??? I can't even find one single woman to be my wife!"

Remember the conditions of the time we are talking about - men who were husbands and fathers were killed becausue they believed. The Lord knew what was to come, as well - that many more men would be killed, and that women would be left without husbands and children without fathers. He knew that the kingdom needed to increase in population so it could grow in strength.

It seems like an obvious answer to me. Or don't you think the Lord could plan ahead?

I just don't buy this explanation given the fact the JS married some women who had living husbands at the time (some without the knowledge of their current husbands ).

[Cowboy Ray]

To have a means of supporting and taking care of women and children with no provider. I mean, if there were enough men to go around there certainly would have been no need for polygamy. I haven't ever read that men were standing around without wives, saying, "Polygamy? Well, what about me??? I can't even find one single woman to be my wife!"

Remember the conditions of the time we are talking about - men who were husbands and fathers were killed becausue they believed. The Lord knew what was to come, as well - that many more men would be killed, and that women would be left without husbands and children without fathers. He knew that the kingdom needed to increase in population so it could grow in strength.

It seems like an obvious answer to me. Or don't you think the Lord could plan ahead?

"Plan ahead" for what exactly?

Source: United States Bureau of Census.

Utah population:

1850 total 11,380 male 6,046 female 5,334

1860 total 40,273 male 20,255 female 20,018

1870 total 86,786 male 44,121 female 42,665

1880 total 143,963 male 74,509 female 68,454

1890 total 210,779 male 111,975 female 98,804

1900 total 276,749 male 141,687 female 135,062

"The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church is not supported by existing evidence. On the contrary, there seems always to have been more males than females in the Church...The United States census records from 1850 to 1940, and all available Church records, uniformly show a preponderance of males in Utah...This theory is not defensible since there was no surplus of women."

- LDS Apostle John A. Widstoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, 1960, pages 390-392

[Dale]

I do not see any reason to acknowledge the polyandrous sealings of Joseph Smith as anything, but platonic sealings. The purpose was to raise up spiritually adopted offspring nothing more than that. I do not believe Joseph Smith was guilty of reprehensible conduct with married women.

Sealin in Nauvoo was said to have started in 1841. Although the claim Loiusa Beaman was Joseph Smith's plural wife did not stand up in the court case called the Temple Lot case. I think the claims of Joseph Smith being a polygamist prior to Nauvoo without foundation in truth.

I do not consider platonic polyandrous sealings as anything to charge Joseph Smith with immoral misconduct over.

Todd Comptom's best proof these were normal marriages was the claim Josephine Fisher mother Sylvia Sessions said she was a daughter of Joseph Smith. But did she mean biological, or spiritually adopted child of Joseph Smith?

DNA studies going on six plus years have not confirmed this claim.

Angus Cannon may have made it up when he said he heard Brigham Young say before his death in 1877 that a report of Patyty Sessions existed also. And he said in in 1905 27+ years after the event. I doubt this claim myself.

But basically when solid evidence of a child does not exits, or to slander Joseph Smith with misconduct they have to dredge up old questionable rumors.

[Who Knows]

Sealin in Nauvoo was said to have started in 1841.

So the marriages before Emma's sealing in 1843 were sealings (and not just marriages)? Other women were sealed to Joseph before Emma was?

[KevinG]

There were endowments and sealings done prior to the Temple being completed in Nauvoo... Just as there were baptisms for the dead prior to that time. I'd be interested in our local historians telling us if they have a record of when those were done, and if we even know when the first sealings took place?

There is precedent that the Lord allowed the people of Israel to do some ordiance work prior to the Temple being built and when they were in the wilderness (on mountain tops and in the tabernacle).

[Who Knows]

There were endowments and sealings done prior to the Temple being completed in Nauvoo... Just as there were baptisms for the dead prior to that time. I'd be interested in our local historians telling us if they have a record of when those were done, and if we even know when the first sealings took place?

There is precedent that the Lord allowed the people of Israel to do some ordiance work prior to the Temple being built and when they were in the wilderness (on mountain tops and in the tabernacle).

So you're also assuming that these other marriages were, in fact, sealings.

Can anyone confirm this?

I assumed that if sealings were, in fact, allowed outside of the temple prior to 1843, that JS's sealing to Emma would have been top priority. However, they weren't sealed until the nauvoo temple in 1843, which made me wonder if the previous marriages were just that - marriages.

[KevinG]

AFAIK Joseph and the Saints were in a learning process, refining their knowledge of how to follow the revelations of the Lord. From the historical record alone I think it would be very difficult to determine which sealings were merely adoptions and which ones were considered marriges. It would also be difficult to determine when the Lord accepted ordinances done outside the Nauvoo Temple, and when it became necessary for the Saints to complete the temple to retain the authority to do them.

I don't have the expertise to give dates and places and I'm sort of hoping one of our more talented researchers has some data to confirm or dispell my speculations.

So all I can say Who Knows is... "Who Knows?"

[auteur55]

One thing we do know is that the argument that Polygamy happened so single women could be taken care is BUNK.

And to think how many people I gave that excuse to on my mission.

[KevinG]

One thing we do know is that the argument that Polygamy happened so single women could be taken care is BUNK.

And to think how many people I gave that excuse to on my mission.

Unfortunately getting into the doctrines about God calling certain prophets in their respective dispensations to enter into the Principle in order to raise righteouss posterity, in spite of the fact that monogamy is the default mode of marriage is a rather hard concept to get accross in sound bites. It makes the critics job easier and tempts us to engage in simplistic explanations of things we don't even fully understand.

I think President Hinkley was wise to dismiss the subject as he did. We are also wise to have the missionaries stick to the basics. Polygamy is not exactly at the core of our message.

[Tom]

I think President Hinkley was wise to dismiss the subject as he did. We are also wise to have the missionaries stick to the basics. Polygamy is not exactly at the core of our message.

Unfortunately, President Hinckley is likely the only person who could answer this question. Looks like we'll never know in this life.

[Number 9]

To have a means of supporting and taking care of women and children with no provider. I mean, if there were enough men to go around there certainly would have been no need for polygamy. I haven't ever read that men were standing around without wives, saying, "Polygamy? Well, what about me??? I can't even find one single woman to be my wife!"

Remember the conditions of the time we are talking about - men who were husbands and fathers were killed becausue they believed. The Lord knew what was to come, as well - that many more men would be killed, and that women would be left without husbands and children without fathers. He knew that the kingdom needed to increase in population so it could grow in strength.

It seems like an obvious answer to me. Or don't you think the Lord could plan ahead?

I guess I should have made a slightly different remark regarding my opinion, which I still hold to. I should have said that there weren't enough righteous men around.

If what I have suggested is not the case, where were all the single men who were left without prospects? Since there were SO many women ( ) in polygamist relationships, there should have been loads of men who had nobody to marry. Where are there records that support this? Please enlighten me on the loads of complaints by men who were doomed to live lonely lives because of polygamy, and the hogging up of all the good women by the church's elite.

Cowboy Ray - The Lord plans ahead for everything. He knew the kingdom needed to be built up, and polygamy helped do just that. Whether we're talking about women and their children being sealed to righteous men, or whether we're talking about the physical care necessary to provide for their needs - the end result is the same: The kingdom gets built up in a more efficient manner than without.

Who cares, anyway? I'm a woman, and it doesn't bother me. If you don't like the idea - great! I have no doubt that you will never be called to live it.

[KevinG]

I think President Hinkley was wise to dismiss the subject as he did.  We are also wise to have the missionaries stick to the basics.  Polygamy is not exactly at the core of our message.

Unfortunately, President Hinckley is likely the only person who could answer this question. Looks like we'll never know in this life.

You can know in this life.

The Lord answered the question for me. I studied out the different passages regarding polygamy in the Old Testament, Book of Mormon and D&C, gatherred insight and opinions from apologists and friends, pondered and prayed about it and came to my own conclusions... Then I received personal revelation and understanding in the matter...

We don't need the prophet to elucidate everything for us. Especially those things that the general public will use to distract us from the more basic truths of Jesus Christ and His Atonement, and the restoration of the Gospel in this dispensation. That's what the Prophet and the Missionaries should be focusing on when dealing with the public.

[juliann]

I guess I should have made a slightly different remark regarding my opinion, which I still hold to. I should have said that there weren't enough righteous men around.

Polygamy creates shortages of women. There are references to the young men not being able to find wives because the younger women were marrying the more established and well off men. The numbers differ by county and period...one thing that we know now is that polygamy must be talked about by era as it was not monolithic. "Taking care of women" might be valid when single immigrant women arrived...they tended to marry into polygamy faster and polygamy helped distribute wealth to these women. But on the whole...the "not enough men" (righteous or not) excuse needs to be put to bed.

[Who Knows]

But on the whole...the "not enough men" (righteous or not) excuse needs to be put to bed.

If only you could let all the missionaries know...

Anyways, got any ideas on my original question?

Were the marriages before the sealing with emma actual sealings? If not, what was the purpose? If so, why were other women sealed to Joseph before emma was?

[Cowboy Ray]

Number 9,

The Lord plans ahead for everything.

Again, what was he planning for? There were more men in the church than there were women, so he couldn

[sunstoned]

AFAIK Joseph and the Saints were in a learning process, refining their knowledge of how to follow the revelations of the Lord. From the historical record alone I think it would be very difficult to determine which sealings were merely adoptions and which ones were considered marriges. It would also be difficult to determine when the Lord accepted ordinances done outside the Nauvoo Temple, and when it became necessary for the Saints to complete the temple to retain the authority to do them.

I don't have the expertise to give dates and places and I'm sort of hoping one of our more talented researchers has some data to confirm or dispell my speculations.

So all I can say Who Knows is... "Who Knows?"

At the risk of being banned from this forum, could I suggest that JS motivation might have been to have physical relations with other women? It seems that in light of the evidence we have, that is the most logical explanation. And what if this view was adopted? I doubt any harm would come to the Church. JS would be seen as a imperfect human, and the church could once and for all cast off the mill stone of polygamy.

[Nomos]

At the risk of being banned from this forum, could I suggest that JS motivation might have been to have physical relations with other women?

No.

Poster queued.

This is a clear violation of board rules and has no basis in the historical and doctrinal record. Even politely worded character assasination is still character assasination.

-Nomos

[Nomos]

This thread has been reopened at the request of it's originator... Please review and stick to the original topic. If anyone decides to break board rules during this sensitive topic it will not only get you queued it may get you banned. We're not fooling around because we're very tired of watching sensitive topics degenerate into free-for-alls.

-Nomos

[Outshined]

I do not see any reason to acknowledge the polyandrous sealings of Joseph Smith as anything, but platonic sealings. The purpose was to raise up spiritually adopted offspring nothing more than that. I do not believe Joseph Smith was guilty of reprehensible conduct with married women.

Sealin in Nauvoo was said to have started in 1841. Although the claim Loiusa Beaman was Joseph Smith's plural wife did not stand up in the court case called the Temple Lot case. I think the claims of Joseph Smith being a polygamist prior to Nauvoo without foundation in truth.

I do not consider platonic polyandrous sealings as anything to charge Joseph Smith with immoral misconduct over.

Todd Comptom's best proof these were normal marriages was the claim Josephine Fisher mother Sylvia Sessions said she was a daughter of Joseph Smith. But did she mean biological, or spiritually adopted child of Joseph Smith?

DNA studies going on six plus years have not confirmed this claim.

Angus Cannon may have made it up when he said he heard Brigham Young say before his death in 1877 that a report of Patyty Sessions existed also. And he said in in 1905 27+ years after the event. I doubt this claim myself.

But basically when solid evidence of a child does not exits, or to slander Joseph Smith with misconduct they have to dredge up old questionable rumors.

I believe Dale made a very solid point here.

[Scarlet]

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner newspaper article

What about this clipping?

Also, I recall reading that she was seven months pregnant when she married Joseph Smith, but I can't seem to find that now. Has anyone read that, and if so, is it true she was pregnant and Mr. Lightner was out of town at the time?

Why wouldn't it be okay to have relations with his wives of polyandry? The morality of it all seems rather blurry.

[Dale]

Where was Adam Lightner supposed to be when out of town? Was he working? Did he have the ability to make brief visits to Nauvoo? How far out of town was he? What's the documentation used?

Mary Lightner had said Joseph Smith had instructed her to remain with Adam Lightner?

D.&C. 132 only allows earthly polygamy in the case of virgins not espoused to another. So earthly polyandry would violate D.&C. 132's instructions.

DNA testing is being done on the eight rumored children of Joseoh Smith, or most of them. This research has not confirmed any of the claims, and may disprove some more before it's finished. Mary Lightners claim of three children is unreliable if DNA research cannot confirm the claim. http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/DNA.htm

Mary Lighner only reported of hearing children not that she had doubts about Adam being the father of her children. And she speaks of only three children not a fourth she had personal knowledge of? How could she have not known that George Lighner was Josephs kid? The children of Joseph Smith And DNA Research starts out with Mary's quote on the three mythical children.

[Scarlet]

What I recall is that Mr. Lightner was out of town for business--his woodworking, I think. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

As far as unespoused virgins go, then are you proposing that all the divorced and widowed polygamist wives (to whomever) were also unconsummated marriages? Does that rule still count for today?