Hell

[Islander]

On 3/7/2021 at 12:11 AM, InCognitus said:

I came into this conversation late, but I was basing my response on your latest posts in this thread and your statement from this post:

In this statement you make it sound like you are at least familiar with Calvinist theology.  Have you read any of his theological writings?  Or how do you know what you said in the quote above?

On the contrary.  The sects of the early 19th century were basically biblicists, and used scripture to try to support their various views. And you know that story, "the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible." (JSH 1:12)  

The position I am backing is that of the restored church, wherein Jesus restored his doctrines and teachings and his organization led by apostles and prophets, and he directs his church through revelation, and has given us additional scripture, along with the Holy Bible, and it is from that foundation that we get our interpretations of scripture.  

This is usually the default fall back position they take when someone else disagrees with their private interpretation of scripture, but rarely do they say their views come by revelation.  Typically they say their views come by reading the Bible alone but an unbeliever can't comprehend the teachings of the Bible because they don't have the Holy Spirit.  So in other words, if you don't interpret scripture the same way that they do then obviously you don't have the Holy Spirit (from their way of thinking).

I agree with you that the Bible and Book of Mormon are in complete harmony with each other.

I said nothing about personal experience or personal inspiration in my prior post.  When I said I thank God daily for the restoration to set all of these things straight, I was referring to the teachings that God restored by revelation to the prophet Joseph Smith and to the prophets and apostles since that time.   And in part I was reacting to your statement where you said "from the very pages of scripture it is clear that predestination is part of God's plan", because The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't teach "predestination" in the way that I understood you to be insisting that we believe.  

Look up "predestination" in the Topical Guide.  And what does it say?   "See Foreordination".  God foreordains individuals to specific roles and callings, but he never predestinates anyone (if that word is understood to mean that the individual has no choice in the matter). 

Take a look at this December 1990 Ensign article in the "I Have a Question" section.  The question asked:   "Romans 8:29–30 seems to indicate that Paul believed in predestination. Did he?"

Some of what the author says here may be confusing.  He says, for example, that "Many Christian churches regard the words predestine and foreordain as synonymous."   Well, to be clear, the Latter-day Saints regard the words foreordain and predestine as synonymous.  The difference is the order of the words, with the first word providing the meaning of the second.  

The concept of foreordination is entirely consistent with the rest of scripture in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price, while the Calvinist definition of "predestination" is not.  I may have misunderstood your meaning, and if I have then please let me know.

Please realize that I was, primarily, responding to Smith on my postings. He was the one that mentioned Calvin and Arminianism as doctrines that clash with classical LDS doctrine. I just stated that I have never read any of such works. They may have articulated in their writings about those doctrines but I am not familiar with them. 

Like I mentioned, our will exists inside the will of God. As much as you ay desire to escape the atmosphere, under your own kinetic power is impossible. So in like manner, God knows ALL possible permutations in human history and behavior for he transcend time and space. So whatever our "choice" maybe, God has taken it into account and will work, ultimately according to His plan and Will. There is not ONE molecule on this earth that escapes the all-searching eye of the Almighty God. So, whatever our "choice" is already part of and connected to His ultimate plan. 

The Greek word translated "predestination" speaks of shaping or conforming onto or in similitud of. That is what Romans 8:29-30 talks about. It must be understood in that context. God had a relationship with us that predates the foundation of the earth. To foreknow is to have an intimate relationship from before as when the Lord tells Jeremiah: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jer 1:5. It clearly implies a prior relationship, foreordination and the setting apart for a specific task on the earth as determined by the Lord, an ion ago. In that sense, God chose Jeremiah, He poured His Spirit into Him in a way that it is impossible for the prophet to walk away from his calling. He cried: "Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay." Jer 20:9. Can you say that Jeremiah's agency was taken away from him? When the Spirit of the Lord comes upon you, His will becomes your will. I think that is a tension that is poorly, if at all, understood by the Latterday Saints. 

When Nephi declared: "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."  He was just voicing his testimony of what the Holy Ghost has revealed to him and what he knew about the character of God. But it was the Lord who chose to reveal that to Nephi, who fueled his faith and strengthen his resolve even in the face of adversity and danger. Nephi's conviction was Spirit-driven. The Lord chose Nephi for that task. I think that is undeniable.

The issue here is that the Lord is sovereign and we, finite, fallen, sinful creatures can not begin to understand what, how and why He does what He does. We are left with His words in the scriptures to try to make sense of such things. But if we understand His character, promises, deeds and covenants then the text is filled by the context in which His actions take place.

So, in that context, He does intimately (as in a relationship) knows, sets apart, choses and foreordain some but not others. Why? We don't know. But we do know that whatever He does is ALWAYS right because He is ALWAYS righteous. We have to take that on faith and trust in Him. Like it says in Isa 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."

I maintain that there is no LDS doctrine that contradicts that biblical teaching.