BoM name similarities in the Vernal Holley maps

[enummaelish]

If a real translation were occurring, wouldn't many (if not most or nearly all) biblical names come out differently?

No. Joseph Smith was inspired to translate the Book of Mormon in a way that would specifically reflect the King James Version of the Bible so that the two records could become

[Beowulf]

This IS fun.

I love discursing about name changes from one language to the next....

My favorite name story comes from WWI. A German raider slipped past the British ships in the South Atlantic and made it into the Indian Ocean. Off the Arabian Peninsula, they were queried by radio. Sending a message in Morse Code, they spelled out A-T-E-N rather than A-D-E-N. The German raider had to run for it because the British radio operators realized their base name had been spelled in German rather than English!

[Guest johnny_cat]

So, did Lehi (or one of his descendents) give these places their names? Or did Joseph? Or did God?

Um, I'd assume that the European settlers gave the places their names. We started with an assertion of 17 place names that supposedly matched the locations described in the Book of Mormon. Now we have 3 Biblical names in a general region. Not particularly persuasive to me.

[dacook]

dacook sez:

Midian, Shiloh, Ephraim are in the bible.

So, did Lehi (or one of his descendents) give these places their names? Or did Joseph? Or did God?

Are they OT or NT? If they're OT presumably both Mormon/Moroni/BOM author got the same translation as the translators in English. If they're NT names, presumably they were transferred to the New World by other means, or they're simple coincidences.

(I feel like a discussion leader! This is kind of fun.)

Translating names into similar languages is sometimes interesting. For example, if we look at some common English names that have been translated into some closely related Polynesian languages, we see similar (but not identical) translations, as the names were introduced to different populations independently. You can see how each group attempted to apply Polynesian pronunciation to English names :

English, Tongan, Hawaiian

David, Tevita, Kawika

John, Sione, Keoni or Ione

George, Siaosi, Keoki

James, Semisi, Kimo

Mark, Ma'ake, Maleko

What does this exercise mean? I think it means that parallel translations of names from one language into a completely different language (even if two very similar languages) rarely results in identical spelling or pronunciation. How many times has there been a need for agreement on translation from one language to another when the translation has occurred separately?

It's not as though we should expect to start with a name from Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, then translate it into some or multiple native american languages, then translate it into English, and end up with the same translation from the original language right into English.

If a real translation were occurring, wouldn't many (if not most or nearly all) biblical names come out differently?

Genesis 25: 1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Genesis 41:52 And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

Judges 15: 9

[Corky Wallace]

Enummaelish (I think I actually typed your name correctly, for once - sorry for previous goofs):

- It seems striking to me that the KJV "look & feel" could be translated so well, including spellings, yet there have been so many instances of minor corrections having to be applied in subsequent years.

Johnny Cat:

- I think that's where we started with this. It is remarkable that Euro settlers could provide the same names as the Bible, which also turned out to be darn near exactly what appeared in the BOM.

In the case of those communities that were encorporated after the BOM was translated, did they merely mimic BOM names? Or were the areas possibly settled before encorporation (where posts have noted evidence of settlement date later than BOM, it is noted.)

[YH8]

If a real translation were occurring, wouldn't many (if not most or nearly all) biblical names come out differently?

No. Joseph Smith was inspired to translate the Book of Mormon in a way that would specifically reflect the King James Version of the Bible so that the two records could become

[Nighthawke]

In all fairness, Mr. Holley's book is over 20 years old, and he did not have the resources we have now. The Internet is a great thing indeed. In some ways, it keeps us all a little more honest.

Except that Quebecers are almost as zealous as Mormons when it comes to record keeping and making these records available to anyone--so looking up the towns of Morin Heights and Ste-Agathe-des-Monts would've been a simple matter of looking up the information in a library... or even dialing the toll free Quebec tourism office for a free map of the place.

Besides you can't just put a map together and say this is circa 1820. That's completely dishonest.

[Nighthawke]

In the case of those communities that were encorporated after the BOM was translated, did they merely mimic BOM names?  Or were the areas possibly settled before encorporation (where posts have noted evidence of settlement date later than BOM, it is noted.)

Oh good grief give it up already. Morin is a common everyday French surname. Go ahead, Google Morin and you'll get 1,4 million hits. By the by laddie, did ye not read what I posted earlier?

Government minister Augustin-Norbert Morin came with his Indian guide, Simon, in 1850 to survey the area.

As for the town of Ste-Agathe-des-Monts, Quebec was/is very Roman Catholic and so every other town in Quebec is named after a saint. Here look at this map and see for yourself (click on the enlarge box):

Laurentians

[kawikadave]

Had enough?

Are critics now willing to say the map is poor "proof" that Jospeph Smith used local place names in writing the B of M? Anyone???

Are you already scurrying around looking for the next ridiculous, already answered, and poorly researched "proof" that the B of M is a fraud?

[USU78]

- I think that's where we started with this. It is remarkable that Euro settlers could provide the same names as the Bible, which also turned out to be darn near exactly what appeared in the BOM.

Is Oneida a European or an Amerind name?

[YH8]

Had enough?

Are critics now willing to say the map is poor "proof" that Jospeph Smith used local place names in writing the B of M? Anyone???

Are you already scurrying around looking for the next ridiculous, already answered, and poorly researched "proof" that the B of M is a fraud?

THere's probably scurrying going on, but not much literal scurrying. There is an all but literal endless list of ridiculous topics to drone on about while not listening to the reasonable explanations. No need to listen - Dem Marminz just can't be true.

[kawikadave]

Is Oneida a European or an Amerind name?

It appears to me that it's European. The real name of the tribe is:

"Onyota'a:ka - The People of the Upright Stone"

[USU78]

Is Oneida a European or an Amerind name?

It appears to me that it's European. The real name of the tribe is:

"Onyota'a:ka - The People of the Upright Stone"

Looked in a couple of online etymological dictionaries: none gives a European derivation.

And if you're expecting a girl: Ahhhhhh!

[Corky Wallace]

Hey DaveDave,

Are the Holley maps enough to disprove the BOM? I wouldn't think so. At the same time, taken with the range of other questions & issues, it doesn't seem at all unusual that so many people are doubtful.

(While we on that topic, why is JS and the BOM taking so much heat these days, as more sources of historical information are made public via the internet? Is it kind of like the Polyg explanation for why mainline Mormonism has become accepted in the mainstream? [that answer - "the lack of opposition indicates that Satan knows they've apostacized after giving up polygamy"] Is JS & the BOM getting so much antagonistic attention because Satan is behind it all?)

Actually, I think there might be some room for both critics & TBMs to agree on BOM names:

From a true-believer standpoint, maybe the characters actually did exist, but in trying to fit the BOM into a King James motif, he chose to use some names that would be readable & pronouncable, so he used some pseudonyms for these characters, many of which happened to be biblical sounding names he was familiar with.

And from the critic standpoint, since JS made up the story anyway, he just used some names he was familiar with.

Can TBMs accomodate the notion that JS might have employed psuedonyms?

Not that my opinion counts for Jack Squat among TBMs, but it seems to me that might be your best angle on this issue.

[Guest johnny_cat]

I think that's where we started with this. It is remarkable that Euro settlers could provide the same names as the Bible, which also turned out to be darn near exactly what appeared in the BOM.

I'm not sure what's remarkable about the Europeans using Biblical place names. The problem is in insisting that the place names have something to do with the Book of Mormon. Asserting that three Biblical place names appear both in the Book of Mormon and in 19th-century America doesn't seem all that remarkable.

[kawikadave]

Are the Holley maps enough to disprove the BOM? I wouldn't think so.

That wasn't my question... let me restate it:

Can you admit the map is poor "proof" that Jospeph Smith used local place names in writing the B of M?

[ ] Yes, it provides poor evidence that Joseph Smith used local place names.

[ ] No, I think it provides good evidence that Joseph Smith used local place names.

Is that easier?

I love this addendum you gave:

At the same time, taken with the range of other questions & issues, it doesn't seem at all unusual that so many people are doubtful.

So this evidence isn't so strong, but when you add up a bunch of similar evidence, some people doubt. That's your premise?

I do agree with your premise, BTW. Some people don't have a strong testimony or are looking for reasons to doubt rather than believe. Arguments like this one damage what little faith they have and they may leave the church or just stop believing.

However, as has been shown here, that doesn't mean that this argument, or most arguments that are discussed in these forums have much merit. But they do cause doubts, especially for those who aren't willing to actually look into the validity of the matter.

[Daniel Peterson]

At the same time, taken with the range of other questions & issues, it doesn't seem at all unusual that so many people are doubtful.

Holley's list of names isn't overly persuasive, nor even very interesting. A multitude of such "questions and issues" still doesn't add up to much.

While we on that topic, why is JS and the BOM taking so much heat these days, as more sources of historical information are made public via the internet?

I don't notice any unusual "heat" if what's meant by that is new arguments and evidence. Besides, I don't see the position of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon as weakening. Rather the opposite.

Oneida, incidentally, seems rather well explained as an anglicization of Onyota'a:ka. I don't see any problem with that.

[Corky Wallace]

DaveDave,

I can't answer your question; both responses are unsatisfactory to me, at this point. The similarity of the names is curious, though, IMO, though it appears to be uninteresting to Dr. Peterson.

I do like your signature, by the way:

While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding."

Gordon B. Hinckley

GBH is a good man, IMO.

Dr. Peterson,

I hadn't considered the precise meaning of "heat" when I posted that, though you suggest one, and I'll take your word that there are not much in the way of new arguments and evidence, as I'm a relative newbie. (I honestly don't know.) What made me think the internet is creating problems for the BOM & JS was the result when I Googled looking for an apologist position for a topic I posted about yesterday:

Joseph Smith Patriarchal Blessing

After going through the first two pages of search results, my thought was "man, I think I understand at least part of why a fair number of apologists seem kind of grumpy." (I think we have some ourselves on the anti side. Maybe this debate brings out the worst in people.)

Google hits, growth rates, grass roots ideology and translational questions do not connote "truth" in this area, but the (apparent) number of opponents can't be very enjoyable. (As a Utah Democrat, I know the feeling. You might be tempted to state that in my case, I'm both in a very small minority as well as simply wrong! It wouldn't be the first time I've heard it! )

[wenglund]

Were a Vern Holley type to try and make a case, using a map of Texas, that a young farm boy living in that state in 1930, wrote the Bible, do you suppose the Corky Wallace types would find that curious, and have reason to doubt the ancient origins of the Bible?

Hhhmmmmm.....

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Corky Wallace]

Would I find a map of Texas as evidence the Bible was fabricated?

Well, no, for two reasons:

1) - Jerusalem, Bethlehem and other biblical locations are precisely located and there are copious amounts of hard evidence that many of the places actually existed, not to mention the fairly robust historical trail from the Greeks, Romans, etc. (I'm not stating the Bible is all true - only that many of the locations and societies described therein are solidly verifiable.)

2) - If Jesus really was a Texan, we'd all really, REALLY be in trouble.

You know, with the Prophet Warren Jeffs apparently moving to Texas, it is possible we'll see some more scriptural resources originating in that fair land.

[wenglund]

Corky,

You missed the point. But, that's okay. People often don't get the humor when the joke is on them.

I am grateful, though, for the brief moment of entertainment you have unwittingly provided us with.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[enummaelish]

One thing we can all appreciate about the Corkster is that at least he hangs around for the debate. In contrast, Joel dumps this ridiculous map upon us and John mimics Nahom, yet neither of them returns to witness the dismantling of their claims by the combined efforts of the FAIR Board. To simply hit and run is a wee bit cowardly by any standard.

Now that makes me quite grumpy. I'm off for another diet Coke.

[Corky Wallace]

Hey Weng,

Glad to help out ! ! !

LOL !

Laughter is good for the soul.

[Magyar]

As usual, Nibley said it best:

"There is no happier hunting ground for the half-trained

scholar than the world of words (An Approach to the Book of Mormon,

p. 281)."