Galileo in the Book of Mormon Part 3

[clarkgoble]

19 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

In either case, the personal name Nephi only appears in two places in literature: Kircher's Oedpius Aegyptiacus and the Book of Mormon. In both cases, Nephi is an Egyptian Jew with a knowledge of encoded Egyptian script. I tend to think this is non-random.

Yes, it is standard renaissance era material. But Kircher extrapolated some interesting things from his research, including a belief that there were two transmissions of Egyptian religion into the Indies, at two time periods corresponding with the migrations in the Book of Mormon. 

Umm. What? Nephi is a common Arabic name. While I'm not an Arabic speaker like Robert, I'm pretty sure it's not hard to find in literature. One might question why Lehi would give his son a non-Hebrew name of course. Some have also suggested it's an Egyptian rather than Arabic name meaning "captain." Or did you simply mean in the 19th century? But even if one is going for a 19th century context I'm sure there's people who'd been in Arab countries and lived in 1820's America.

Edited February 23, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/21/2018 at 9:49 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

I suppose so, just feels like you are reaching over stronger evidence (Kircher translating a manuscript written by Nephi) to pull out arguments that aren't going to be convincing without stronger evidence.

 

On 2/22/2018 at 12:52 AM, Rajah Manchou said:

Kircher found a manuscript written by an Egyptian Jew named Nephi which he spent a good deal of his life translating. Kircher also believed that Egyptian-Israelite culture, perhaps resembling that of his Nephi, .......................

If we are indeed looking for a 17th century translator of a history of the descendants of an Egyptian Jew named Nephi who migrates to a land called Ramah and/or Cumorah in the 6th century BC, Kircher is an interesting possibility.

I think that was a Jewish rabbi from Babylon named Barachias Nephi, who authored an Arabic manuscript telling how to interpret Egyptian hieroglyphs -- whether such a person actually existed is not known, but it is interesting because there was an Arabic manuscript which did tell how to actually read Egyptian hieroglyphs, and it is a shame that Kircher didn't find that one.  Could have saved him a lot of time and energy, and for nought.

[Rajah Manchou]

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Umm. What? Nephi is a common Arabic name. While I'm not an Arabic speaker like Robert, I'm pretty sure it's not hard to find in literature.

It's something I read in Kircher's biography by Daniel Stolzenberg



But I also could not find any other Nephi's (personal name) in literature or history. If you can think of any, let me know. 

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

One might question why Lehi would give his son a non-Hebrew name of course. 

Kircher had given the name Rabbi Barachias Nephi as his author first, in the context of a Bablylonian (Old Cairo not Mesopotamia) Jew. For reasons noone knows, he then startaed referring to the Egyptian Jew as Abenephius, in an Arabic context. But it seems clear that Rabbi Nephi was not a non-Hebrew. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Rajah Manchou

[Rajah Manchou]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I think that was a Jewish rabbi from Babylon named Barachias Nephi, who authored an Arabic manuscript telling how to interpret Egyptian hieroglyphs -- whether such a person actually existed is not known, but it is interesting because there was an Arabic manuscript which did tell how to actually read Egyptian hieroglyphs, and it is a shame that Kircher didn't find that one.  Could have saved him a lot of time and energy, and for nought.

Supposedly Babylon refers to Cairo.

For some reason, Kircher downplayed Nephi's Jewish identity, so scholars of the period (until today) may have missed the connection, but there's an argument to be made for the manuscript being based on fragments of Jewish documents, and from the fragments Kircher did publish, it wasn't only about telling how to read Egyptian hieroglyphs. Here's that link again: Are the Fragments of Abenephius the Remains of a Lost Jewish Account of Egypt?

Edited February 24, 2018 by Rajah Manchou

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

............................. One might question why Lehi would give his son a non-Hebrew name of course. Some have also suggested it's an Egyptian rather than Arabic name meaning "captain." ....................................................

There are a number of non-Hebrew names in the Nephite-Mulekite sections of the Book of Mormon, and Jews have not generally hesitated then or now to give their children non-Hebraic names, if the circumstances called for it.  If we knew more about the lives of Lehi & family, and why he and Nephi had been specifically trained to read & write Egyptian, we might have a better idea why these foreign names show up in the Book of Mormon.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, JarMan said:

The ball is filled with a fluid so that the spindles are suspended and can rotate freely. ....................................

The only problem is that reading "glass" for "brass" would have to be a modern scribal error, and it has the additional difficulty of the whole phrase "fine brass" (1 Ne 16:10).  I have never heard of ancient "fine glass," and there is certainly no likelihood that glass and brass could be confused in Egyptian or Hebrew.  Moreover, One might want to consider also the "fine steel" bow in 16:18, as it is in chiastic parallel with the "fine workmanship" of the "precious steel" sword  of Laban in 1 Ne 4:9 -- in the book-length chiasm of 1 Nephi.  I would include the "fine brass" liahona in that same chiastic structure.

[JarMan]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The only problem is that reading "glass" for "brass" would have to be a modern scribal error, and it has the additional difficulty of the whole phrase "fine brass" (1 Ne 16:10).  I have never heard of ancient "fine glass," and there is certainly no likelihood that glass and brass could be confused in Egyptian or Hebrew.  Moreover, One might want to consider also the "fine steel" bow in 16:18, as it is in chiastic parallel with the "fine workmanship" of the "precious steel" sword  of Laban in 1 Ne 4:9 -- in the book-length chiasm of 1 Nephi.  I would include the "fine brass" liahona in that same chiastic structure.

I found four references to “fine glass” in google books from between 1620 and 1690. From the context three of the references seemed to indicate glass that was very clear like crystal. The fourth I couldn’t determine what was meant. 

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, JarMan said:

I found four references to “fine glass” in google books from between 1620 and 1690. From the context three of the references seemed to indicate glass that was very clear like crystal. The fourth I couldn’t determine what was meant. 

So, if you were to attribute the origin of the BofM to that period, and not to antiquity, those would be very useful points.

You might then want to take a closer look at the Orbis Terrarum (minutum mundum) as symbolic of sovereignty over the "Whole World" -- just such an orb was held kings and queens at their coronation, and one was even sealed in the "Amphitheatre of Eternal Wisdom," the fabled tomb of Christian Rosencreutz.  F. Yates, Rosicrucian Enlightenment, 128, 242, 246-249.

King Henry VIII, had himself painted as the Welsh King Arthur holding orbis terrarum and Excalibur (see Michael Wood’s “Arthur: The Once & Future King,” in his In Search of Myths & Heroes , broadcast on PBS-TV Nov 2005).

As pointed by Hugh Nibley, the liahona or ball may have been a "sphere, globe, or 'Reichsapfel' of clear crystal the possession of which was thought to be both the symbol and source of world dominion in the Middle Ages" (Nibley, Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri, 1st ed., 121). 

[JarMan]

43 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So, if you were to attribute the origin of the BofM to that period, and not to antiquity, those would be very useful points.

You might then want to take a closer look at the Orbis Terrarum (minutum mundum) as symbolic of sovereignty over the "Whole World" -- just such an orb was held kings and queens at their coronation, and one was even sealed in the "Amphitheatre of Eternal Wisdom," the fabled tomb of Christian Rosencreutz.  F. Yates, Rosicrucian Enlightenment, 128, 242, 246-249.

King Henry VIII, had himself painted as the Welsh King Arthur holding orbis terrarum and Excalibur (see Michael Wood’s “Arthur: The Once & Future King,” in his In Search of Myths & Heroes , broadcast on PBS-TV Nov 2005).

As pointed by Hugh Nibley, the liahona or ball may have been a "sphere, globe, or 'Reichsapfel' of clear crystal the possession of which was thought to be both the symbol and source of world dominion in the Middle Ages" (Nibley, Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri, 1st ed., 121). 

I’ve never heard of this. Move the cross inside the ball and we get my Liahona. 

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, JarMan said:

I’ve never heard of this. Move the cross inside the ball and we get my Liahona. 

Bingo!!

[JarMan]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Bingo!!

In this one he's also got the sword of Laban.  Not to mention some type of breastplate. Only thing missing is a pair of spectacles.

Wait, here we go.

Edited February 25, 2018 by JarMan

[cdowis]

15 hours ago, JarMan said:

In this one he's also got the sword of Laban.  Not to mention some type of breastplate. Only thing missing is a pair of spectacles.

Wait, here we go.

"And now I, Nephi, being a man large in stature"  It fits exactly!    Also, Nephi became a king and King Henry VIII was known for his physical prowess.

Yet another historical parallel for the Book of Mormon -- how obvious.  

Edited February 25, 2018 by cdowis