Mystery Meat Posted July 15, 2015 Author Posted July 15, 2015 Your response was what I view as a very dogmatic assertion "God called them so just trust them." See because you have a testimony of this others simply must trust them. That is how it comes across. Rather it may be better to say "In my experiences I have a strong testimony that these men are called of God in spite of their flaws so I trust them. I hope you can come to that point as well." Noted and fair point. I suppose I assumed it was implied in my answer. I could have made it more clear. You are right.
Mystery Meat Posted July 15, 2015 Author Posted July 15, 2015 I kind of cringe that I even hinted that I wanted you to share. That is very personal, so feel bad I did that. Also, I believe you had that experience. I think some people it's easier, that they have more light or more belief. Recently, as I mentioned before either on this thread or another, my niece did a reading for me. Both my parents have passed on, I've been struggling that they don't leave signs or I questioned if they were even still around on the other side. Well, my niece who is amazing and has the gift, told me that I'm in blackness, at first I was taken aback, feeling kind of sad that she'd say that. I have two sisters that feel like they know my parents are together and happy. And I and my other sister, my niece's mom struggle. She said imagine a blackness in a box. She said my other two sisters boxes had light and that's why they were able to communicate better or see that my parents were okay. Her mom and I just need to fully believe and open up the communication. She also asked if I talk to my mom. I do on occasion, but mostly just in my head. She said I need to talk more out loud. That makes so much sense, since the ones on the other side can't really read our minds, or are so busy up there, they need to be able to hear our call outs. My niece said so much that she wouldn't have known about a health issue etc. My mom was talking through her and said words that I remember her saying. It was incredible! My mom suffered with Alzheimer's at an early age and I told my niece I was so angry that we were robbed of so many years with her. Well, my mom spoke up and told my niece, Michelle, that she had two choices before she came to this earth and she chose it for her life. She wanted me and my family to be proactive, what ever that means. Still unsure about what she was getting at. But Michelle is Catholic, do they believe in a pre existence? So I thought that was interesting. Sorry for my rant, but that is why I believe you. I just need more light, so I can have experiences like that. I need to open the box to let the light in. I know that sounds cheesy. No need to apologize Tacenda. I wish I could share it with any real conviction on a message board. To be clear: I did not have a heavenly messenger come to me. This is nothing that could be measured. God has not forbidden me from sharing it, but I am hesitant to be too open with what was meant to be personal for me, especially on a message board.
Teancum Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Hmmm So now I am wicked as well as a coward.... since the wicked take the truth to be hard. Aren't we all? And pride goes before the fall as well. Never claimed to be humble. By the way I have no problem having my approach challenged when it is done fairly and with rational dialogue rather than simple assertions of faith. But then I think that is the weakness of your approach MM. And you have stooped to name calling and labeling. As I have noted I am willing to admit to being wrong. I had to admit that, once again, at least for me and for my experience I concluded my Mormon testimony was wrong. And I may be wrong about it being wrong. So basically you want to set the terms of the discussion? You want to have a discussion about faith without assertions of faith. That seems completely absurd. There is no way to obtain eternal knowledge without faith. Your unwillingness to accept this is what prevents this conversation from moving forward. And that is the weakness of your approach. I have never said you have to take my word for it. But don't expect me to play by your arbitrary rules. It would be like me saying lets talk about black holes, but math or physics have no place in the discussion. Faith is to understanding God/Religion what math and physics are to understanding Black Holes. Are you open to admitting that you are wrong? I think not. You KNOW what you KNOW and it is a FACT. And in fact in my experience many/most of the true believers here are not open to being wrong about their testimony. Yet you accuse me of having cognitive dissonance about seeking truth? How silly of you. I am open to seek truth wherever I can and as noted I still pray and ask for answers yet I do state to God that I need more than feelings that are interpreted as an answer to a prayer. What that would be I do not know. That is not cognitive dissonance at play. I am not open to admitting I am wrong, because God is not wrong. I don't know everything and so the things that God has revealed to me as absolutely true are not on the table for being wrong. But, for example, I believe the BoA and the BoM are actual histories. I could be wrong on those issues. Also, it seems to me that you have done the same thing to God that you have done to our conversation here. "God, I am open to an answer, but it has to be on my terms, and faith is not on my terms." Remember, "a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." You have limited the answer you will accept, and therefore, I am afraid, you will not get one at all. But that doesn't mean the answers aren't there to be had. What it is, is being open to having your world view challenged and shaken up and being willing to respond to that and not ignore it. Cognitive dissonance is finding ways to make things fit into what we are, have been and are used to. It is when one discovers that maybe the Church is not what it claims to be yet they will continue to find ways to make it fit, work and conform. I did that for years. That was cognitive dissonances. Well I think that is enough for now. Have a nice day. I really need to exit this thread at least for now. 1: I never said faith has to be tossed out in such discussions. I said that only assertions of faith only with no rational dialogue does not work. Anyone can make a faith assertion about anything.... about the man in the moon, fairies and so on. Would you accept them with no rational discussions other than someone's simple assertion that they KNOW fairies are real? 2: Who says there is no way to obtain eternal knowledge but by faith? It seems to me this is the premise set by those who make fantastic truth claims but cannot back them up with evidence. Why is it we should operate by faith without evidence in some of the most important decisions we will ever make. We would never act in such a way for other major life decisions would we? 3: If you are not willing to admit you may be wrong why bother discussing anything with anyone? 4: I have often worried that my prayers are bordering on the sign seeking edge. But I never said faith was not acceptable. I just have said I need more than a warm feeling, burning in the bosom. Am I setting the terms? Maybe? But I am not sure the terms set out in man written so called scripture is the way God really works with us so who know. If God is there I can tell you he/she/it knows my heart and that it is sincere.
Teancum Posted July 15, 2015 Posted July 15, 2015 Noted and fair point. I suppose I assumed it was implied in my answer. I could have made it more clear. You are right. Listen I know we are crossing swords a bit on this thread but I do appreciate and in a way even admire your strong faith and passion in standing up for your testimony. I am sad in some ways that I don't have that any longer.... but also in some ways not.Does that make sense at all?
Mystery Meat Posted July 15, 2015 Author Posted July 15, 2015 Listen I know we are crossing swords a bit on this thread but I do appreciate and in a way even admire your strong faith and passion in standing up for your testimony. I am sad in some ways that I don't have that any longer.... but also in some ways not.Does that make sense at all?
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