Uncle Dale Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) ... this absolutely absurd, evil and abusive practice... I can sort of see where it all came from. Joseph Smith's boyhood nextdoor neighbor was John Stafford, who once recalled that even as ayoungster Smith had some knowledge of the Koran. English editionsof that book, available back in the 1820s, typically included a lengthyintroduction to the subject, and explained Islamic polygamy. Some ofthose texts may have also explained that Mohammed was the headof the seventh and final dispensation of the One True Religion --relegating the 6th, headed by Jesus and/or Peter, to the status ofa failed attempt, which left behind a world-wide apostasy. Anapostasy which required the Restoration of All Things Divine. Whatever Smith's knowledge of such arcane matters, he certainlyknew of Israelite polygamy -- without it, there would have been notribes of Joseph -- and he considered himself an Ephraimite,descended from a father who bore the sole right to the PatriarchalPriesthood of the ancient Joseph. To deny Old Testament polygamy being part of the "Plan of Salvation,"would have meant denying the validity and authority of Solomon, fromwhom no less a personage than Jesus himself claimed descent. If there was to be a "Restoration of All Things" -- then some form ofthe biblical polygamy had to be considered. Too bad (for many of us) that the imitation of antique religion was not limited to levirate marriage... that would have solved so manysubsequent problems. Oh well, UD Edited June 10, 2015 by Uncle Dale 1
ALarson Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Have fun with the lesson. It seems pretty clear to me that polygamy is the 800 pound gorilla in the room for the LDS Church. Nobody would go to the lengths, breadths, efforts, tears, blood, sweat and anguish for this absolutely absurd, evil and abusive practice unless they needed to in order to maintain the alleged prophetic call of Joseph Smith and his successors down to Wilford Woodruff as well as maintain a testimony that the LDS Church really was restored.... including plural marriage... through Joseph Smith. Believing Mormons these days UTTTERLY reject any other so called prophet or cultic leader who introduces polygamy including those that have an LDS tradition,. The current LDS leaders have to HATE this aspect of their own tradition and do all they can to sweep it away. The recent essays never would have happened had not the technology and information age thrust it upon them. That in and of itself is telling. Best wishes ALarson in your lesson. I could not do it. It is clear to me what the real answer is on this one.Thanks, Teancum and I agree with what you believe. I've already told the Bishop that I will help them with some sources for this lesson, but I will have to take a backseat with the teaching of this one. I firmly believe that polygamy originated with Joseph Smith and did not come from God. Interesting thing is that I know that my Bishop feels the same way and he's expressed that his wife is REALLY struggling with this issue. But, he is trying to do what the SP has asked (discuss the essays with the ward members). I even asked him if he was sure he wanted to tackle this essay for our next lesson and he said, "Yes, it's the number one topic that the members in the ward are coming to me about with questions. Many are looking for answers regarding Joseph's polygamy" I'm not real sure there are any good answers that explain how it was lived by some in the early days of the church, but I know that many on here believe that it came from God and I'm going to draw from their perspective to try and help my Bishop with this. Edited June 10, 2015 by ALarson 1
ALarson Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) I can sort of see where it all came from. Joseph Smith's boyhood nextdoor neighbor was John Stafford, who once recalled that even as ayoungster Smith had some knowledge of the Koran. English editionsof that book, available back in the 1820s, typically included a lengthyintroduction to the subject, and explained Islamic polygamy. Some ofthose texts may have also explained that Mohammed was the headof the seventh and final dispensation of the One True Religion --relegating the 6th, headed by Jesus and/or Peter, to the status ofa failed attempt, which left behind a world-wide apostasy. Anapostasy which required the Restoration of All Things Divine. Whatever Smith's knowledge of such arcane matters, he certainlyknew of Israelite polygamy -- without it, there would have been notribes of Joseph -- and he considered himself an Ephraimite,descended from a father who bore the sole right to the PatriarchalPriesthood of the ancient Joseph. To deny Old Testament polygamy being part of the "Plan of Salvation,"would have meant denying the validity and authority of Solomon, fromwhom no less a personage than Jesus himself claimed descent. If there was to be a "Restoration of All Things" -- then some form ofthe biblical polygamy had to be considered. Too bad (for many of us) that the imitation of antique religion was not limited to levirate marriage... that would have solved so manysubsequent problems. Oh well, UDThis is interesting UD. Your posts are fascinating to read and I appreciate your contributions from your perspective. What about the "New Israelites" that Oliver Cowdery's Father was a part of and possibly Joseph Smith,Sr. too? Any thoughts there? Here's a link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Israelites The sect claimed literal descent from the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and they practiced divination and polygamy. After the sect was joined by a counterfeiter and treasure seer named "Winchell" (probably Justus Winchell) in the spring or early summer of 1800, the New Israelites began dowsing to look for buried treasure in Middletown and Rutland, Vermont. They also embarked on the construction of a temple. The group employed the divining rod for both treasure hunting and other forms of revelation. Edited June 10, 2015 by ALarson
Buckeye Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Good luck ALarson with the 5th Sunday Lesson. My ward had a similar lesson just discussing the essays at a high level. The main focus was on faith vs. doubt. I can say that when the polygamy essays were mentioned - just as part of a long list of topics the essays cover - that there was considerable unease in the group, particularly with the sisters. If possible, you may want to have a sister help teach the lesson (if you can find one willing). You'll also want to really decide ahead of time what you're looking to accomplish. With polygamy in particular, its very easy to get side tracked on person opinions, justifications, horror stories, etc. I consider myself pretty brave and willing to discuss anything, but I wouldn't touch this lesson with a 10-foot pole until I had tried it out with my family and other smaller groups of people I really trust.
hope_for_things Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 ALarson, Take a look at the review of this book by Merina Smith, Revelation, Resistance, and Mormon Polygamy: The Introduction and Implementation of the Principle, 1830-1853 (USU Press, 2013) http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/review-revelation-resistance-and-mormon-polygamy/ Sounds like a very interesting book and specifically covering this time period. 1
JulieM Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Alarson, I think that Buckeye's suggestion to maybe have at least one woman involved with teaching this topic is a good idea. I know that polygamy has been mentioned a few times in our ward's relief society and it's a very uncomfortable topic for most. But, I think that's because many just don't know what to believe about how it was lived or they don't know what is in the essays from the leaders. It's just kind of a hazey part of church history that many members wish would just go away. I am interested to hear how this goes for your ward, but I second the idea of having some female perspective involved. Good luck to you!
Buckeye Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) I am involved with the planning of our ward's next 5th Sunday discussion and my Bishop has decided to begin covering the essays regarding polygamy/plural marriage. We met Sunday night (along with his counselors and a few other leaders in the ward) and we were discussing the revelation on plural marriage (D&C 132), its origin, history and so on. When it was discussed that it wasn't until 1852 that Brigham Young and Orson Pratt officially announced the revelation to the general membership of the church, someone asked how many had lived polygamy during the years between Joseph's death and that announcement (mainly meaning new sealings and other's being introduced to it other than those during Joseph's life). So, I told them I'd ask this question here as there are many on this board who are very knowledgeable about details from church history. Some questions: - Was polygamy still practiced mainly within the inner circle or leadership of the church during those years (as it was when Joseph Smith was alive)? - Was it just by a specific calling from Brigham Young? - Or was it lived openly but the revelation just hadn't been presented publicly yet? - Also, how about the 3+ years between Joseph's death and when Brigham became the next president of the church? Were there many plural marriages taking place during those years? Thanks in advance for any input or help. I'm also trying to read anything I can find on this topic, so any references anyone can give will be greatly appreciated! Dave Banack of T&S just did a review of Merina Smith’s Revelation, Resistance, and Mormon Polygamy: The Introduction and Implementation of the Principle, 1830-1853 (USU Press, 2013) (http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/review-revelation-resistance-and-mormon-polygamy/) Looks like this is just what you're searching for. A few topical highlights from Dave's review: Practice drove the theology as much as the reverse: “Theology and practice came to have a kind of contingent and symbiotic relationship in which the two grew together: resistance spurred an already-developing theology, which in turn provided support for the practice of polygamy” (p. 55).The death of Joseph Smith, Sr., as a key transition: “The heady days after the approval of the Nauvoo charter were followed by the death of Joseph Smith’s beloved father, Joseph Smith Sr., in 1840. It is quite possible that this loss had two effects on the son — it impressed on him the importance of eternal family connections, but perhaps it also removed an obstacle to polygamy, for most members of the Smith family were initially firmly opposed to it” (p. 65).The Book of Abraham and Freemasonry helped, in 1842, to lay a foundation for polygamy, Abraham being “well known as a polygamist” and Freemasonry “helped lend a sense of moral rightness to secrecy …” (p. 91, 92).Rumors, scandal, and the exploits of John C. Bennett roiled Nauvoo in 1842. To publicly acknowledge the practice would have had dire consequences for the Church, but continuing the secrecy was almost as bad. “The evils of continued secret practice, however, were also very great. The damage from rampant rumors and from the growing resistance of some informed leaders high in the church’s hierarchy was gradually tearing the church and the city apart” (p. 128).The review of how William Clayton was brought into the practice showed “the close connection between polygamy and priesthood” (p. 143). But as the theology developed, everything became linked to polygamy: the endowment, second anointing, the Quorum of the Anointed, salvation and exaltation (p. 165-68). The practice of polygamy was like a black hole that sucked in every developing LDS doctrine.... In conclusion, I will add a few of my own comments. It is worth noting that post-Nauvoo but pre-Utah (and pre-1852 public announcement) polygamy doesn’t get much discussion in most treatments of polygamy, which tend to focus on Joseph Smith and Nauvoo or on the flowering of the practice in later Utah under Brigham Young and his successors. So the last part of the book is a real contribution. It also reinforces the author’s point, made at several places in the book, that the theology and the practice of polygamy developed in tandem, at times rather haphazardly. It simply was not the case that polygamy was first revealed, then slowly implemented. So many explanations and justifications were variously offered that they each begin to lose particular credibility. The practice developed its own momentum. Over time, it seems the justifications became largely irrelevant to the practice. “In Utah the theological narrative continued to evolve and develop” (p. 246). It’s still developing. Edit: I see that hope_for_things already directed you to the T&S post. Sorry for the repeat. Edited June 11, 2015 by Buckeye
Uncle Dale Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) ... What about the "New Israelites" that Oliver Cowdery's Father was a part of and possibly Joseph Smith,Sr. too? Any thoughts there? I don't think there's enough known facts for us to make anyfirm conclusions. Was Oliver's father associated with someof the Wood Scrape "Israelites?" -- Maybe. Probably -- butuntil some better evidence can be uncovered, there's notmuch more we can do besides speculate. UD Edited June 11, 2015 by Uncle Dale
ALarson Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 ALarson, Take a look at the review of this book by Merina Smith, Revelation, Resistance, and Mormon Polygamy: The Introduction and Implementation of the Principle, 1830-1853 (USU Press, 2013) http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/06/review-revelation-resistance-and-mormon-polygamy/ Sounds like a very interesting book and specifically covering this time period. This book looks excellent! Thanks for posting this, hope_for_things (and also thanks to Buckeye for posting the additional information on this book). I appreciate everyone's input and help with this as it's turning into a struggle for those trying to prepare the discussion. I just started a new thread regarding one of the questions the Bishop has (about Helen Mar Kimball). I'm honestly wondering if it's possible to even teach or discuss the essays about Plural Marriage in a large group? The Bishop wants to present them in chronological order and I'm also wondering if he just needs to start with doing an entire lesson on D&C section 132. This is a huge topic that could actually take many, many lessons to cover. He's hoping to get some more direction for the SP on this and I hope he will too.
ALarson Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 I don't think there's enough known facts for us to make anyfirm conclusions. Was Oliver's father associated with someof the Wood Scrape "Israelites?" -- Maybe. Probably -- butuntil some better evidence can be uncovered, there's notmuch more we can do besides speculate. UDYes, I agree. It's fascinating to read about this group. I do know that there are witness statements that link Oliver's father with the group and also mention Joseph Smith, Sr., but I'd need to look this up again as it's been a few years since I read them. Thanks, UD.
ALarson Posted June 11, 2015 Author Posted June 11, 2015 Good luck ALarson with the 5th Sunday Lesson. My ward had a similar lesson just discussing the essays at a high level. The main focus was on faith vs. doubt. I can say that when the polygamy essays were mentioned - just as part of a long list of topics the essays cover - that there was considerable unease in the group, particularly with the sisters. If possible, you may want to have a sister help teach the lesson (if you can find one willing). You'll also want to really decide ahead of time what you're looking to accomplish. With polygamy in particular, its very easy to get side tracked on person opinions, justifications, horror stories, etc. I consider myself pretty brave and willing to discuss anything, but I wouldn't touch this lesson with a 10-foot pole until I had tried it out with my family and other smaller groups of people I really trust. Thanks, Buckeye! As I just posted above, I'm also questioning how effective a discussion on plural marriage can be in a large group. But, it's not my decision and I know the Bishop is trying to do what the SP has requested. We'll see how it goes. I'm just glad that I won't be the one teaching! I do like the idea of having one of the sisters involved. I'm just not sure if any of them would be comfortable talking about it. I'll suggest it to the Bishop who will probably talk first to the Relief Society president to get her input.
Buckeye Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Thanks, Buckeye! As I just posted above, I'm also questioning how effective a discussion on plural marriage can be in a large group. But, it's not my decision and I know the Bishop is trying to do what the SP has requested. We'll see how it goes. I'm just glad that I won't be the one teaching! I do like the idea of having one of the sisters involved. I'm just not sure if any of them would be comfortable talking about it. I'll suggest it to the Bishop who will probably talk first to the Relief Society president to get her input. If no sisters are willing to help with the lesson, that should tell you something about how the lesson would go. Instead of chronological, I would start with "easy" and work towards "hard/impossible." Something like, 1) Are we Christians, 2) WOW, 3) First Vision, 4) Frontier Violence, 5) BOM translation and DNA , 6) Deification, 7) Race and Priesthood, Women's roles (essay still pending), 9) Book of Abraham, 10) Polygamy (general overview), 11) Polygamy (Utah and cessation), 12) Polygamy (Nauvoo)
Uncle Dale Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Yes, I agree. It's fascinating to read about this group. I do know that there are witness statements that link Oliver's father with the group and also mention Joseph Smith, Sr., but I'd need to look this up again as it's been a few years since I read them. Thanks, UD. I'm fairly certain that Oliver Cowdery considered himselfto be a descendant of Israelites -- and all of that, BEFOREPatriarch Joseph Smith, Sr. revealed that Oliver was aliteral descendant of Ephraim, the son of Joseph. If I'm correct in that conclusion, then the most logicalexplanation of such a conclusion on Oliver's part, isthat his father's Israelite identity had been revealed bythe divining rods of the Wood Scape cult members.They could use their revelatory rods to discover whichtribe a member of their group was descended from --and to locate hidden treasure -- and perhaps even to"translate" writings made in unknown languages. Some of the Woods moved west, to the part of New Yorkwhere Joseph Smith's relatives were living during the 1810s and 1820s. Lucy, while taking her family to Palmyra in 1816,passed through that very district, and tarried there briefly.I wonder if she knew anything about the "New Israelites?" UD
Recommended Posts