johnny Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 Kevin W. Graham writes,To say God is "at hand" is not to say God is in your physical presence as you would erroneously assume. ... That would make him much closer than nearby. In fact, that would make Him inside me. In fact, Jesus said the Father that was inside him does the work (John 14:10)John 1410 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.If God is literally "everywhere," He is pantheistic, period. Saying He isn't just because you don't like contradicting yourself, isn't a valid response.Clearly you are not referring to the Christian God because the Christian God is "above all" and "through all" (Eph 4:6). Do you consider "above all" pantheistic?I recommend people read the entire discussion linked in Johnny's post above. You will find the Kevin does not answer questions (see link below) Is God Male, What does the Bible say?, How are we in God's Image ?. "Being above and independent of the material universe" is another primary definition of transcendence. Yet according to the "God is literally everywhere" theory, God actually exists in this material world.I would consider "in you all" (Eph 4:6) this material worldYou and Johnny have insisted that God already is present "everywhere." "through all" (Eph 4:6) sounds like present "everywhere"Ephesians 46 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Big Dogger Posted January 20, 2005 Posted January 20, 2005 Yes, Functionaly Omnipresent, not Metaphysicaly/Ontiologicaly Omnipresent.Tanyan,Help me understand if you would. So the Holy Ghost is Functionally Omnipresent? I'm assuming that is how He is able to bare witness of Truth to those who seek it out.I don't understand how the Holy Ghost can be Funtionally Omnipresent without being Metaphysically Omnipresent. Isn't the Holy Ghost bearing witness of Gospel Truths to countless people across the world at the same time?I have been to a number of LDS meetings and heard people say, "Boy, the Spirit was sure strong here tonight!" Also, I have heard many LDS member talk about how strongly they feel the Spirit present while in the Temple.Is the Spirit really present?Peace be with you.
Zakuska Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Johnny and Dogger say:Jer 23:24: "Can anyone hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? says the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? says the Lord."I remind Jonnhy and Dogger that this isnt God speaking... this is what Jeremiah says God says. Second Hand.
johnny Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Zakuska writes, I remind Jonnhy and Dogger that this isnt God speaking... this is what Jeremiah says God says. Second Hand. And your point is ...You have one verse saying God is a man and another others saying he isnt.Why the contradiction?Their is no contradiction ... God is not like sinful man, he is Holy ... God is like a man of war and takes on the enemy> God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himselfYes the Bible and Mormonism says this... but Modern Christianity doesnt.Modern Christinity says what the bible reveals ... the Son is one in being with the Father.Mormonism says that that the Son and the Father are two seperate eternal beings.
Paul Osborne Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 do LDS believe that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent? Yes, we do. The power of the Holy Ghost is everywhere as is the power of God and Christ. The difference between the three is that the Holy Ghost doesn't have a body and he has a unique mission as part of the Godhead to testify to the souls and hearts of man. We must understand that there is nothing God doesn't know. He sees all things, past, present, and future. He penetrates every particle of every element that makes up our universe.The mind of God can span the universe, see everything at once, and yet he has a body of flesh and bones and stands in a single spot. God is a glorious Man whose exaltation is beyond our comprehension. It is the image of man that is after the image of God and it is divine. The human body is the most glorious thing in all existence. There is nothing more grand than a human body. Finally, God is older than most LDS people realize. It is my experience that LDS people tend to think that God has only made a few million worlds and isn't that old. But no man can even begin to count the number of worlds our Father has made. As I said in another post, the number is so big that there isn't enough paper in the whole world to print the number - it has billion of zeros in the number. Our Heavenly Father has created more worlds than there are atoms that make up the entire contents of this earth. And still, that is only a tiny fraction compared to the number of worlds our Father has made.God the Father is behond our comprehension - but he will make all things known to his children that receive exaltation. But those who miss out on that blessing will be angels only, powerful, and full of glory - but not gods.Paul O
johnny Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Paul Osborne writes,Look, I can spiritually say that Christ dwells in me, can I not? Christ dwells in me but he still has his own body! It is the mind, will, and power, these are the thing of Christ that dwell in me but not literally Jesus because he has his own body to dwell in. Do you need scriptures to back this doctrine up?I agree the spirit of Christ can dwell in you. How would you interpret the following scriptures? What does it mean that God was manifest in the flesh?Who was manifest in the flesh ... God ... the Father ... the Son ...?1 Timothy 12 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.1 Timothy 25 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1 Timothy 316 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.The Father dwells in Christ and can also dwell in us. We should all be one and agreed together.Would you apply the idea that "God was manifest" to yourself?
Big Dogger Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Johnny and Dogger say:Jer 23:24: "Can anyone hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? says the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? says the Lord."I remind Jonnhy and Dogger that this isnt God speaking... this is what Jeremiah says God says. Second Hand. We certainly agree with you that God Himself didn't pen that scripture. However, Mormons and Catholics agree that it is God Himself speaking through Jeremiah.Would you agree?
Benjamin McGuire Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Johnny writes:Would you apply the idea that "God was manifest" to yourself? No, but this version of 1 Timothy 3:16 contains a widely recognized textual corruption. The original text read: "he was made apparent (manifest) in the flesh".You keep referring to this verse - is there some reason you refuse to accept the fact that the notion of "God was manifest" is not original to the text?Ben
johnny Posted January 21, 2005 Posted January 21, 2005 Benjamin McGuire writes,No, but this version of 1 Timothy 3:16 contains a widely recognized textual corruption. The original text read: "he was made apparent (manifest) in the flesh".How is this different that saying "God was manifest in the flesh?You keep referring to this verse - is there some reason you refuse to accept the fact that the notion of "God was manifest" is not original to the text?I keep referring to it because it is the King James Version of the Bible ... isn't this the primary version of the Mormon Church?Does the Mormon Church have a list of verses that can not be referred to because it is not the original text?Does the Mormon Church have a list of verses that are not translated properly?Is the fact that this is not original common knowledge among all Mormons?
Paul Osborne Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 I agree the spirit of Christ can dwell in you. How would you interpret the following scriptures? What does it mean that God was manifest in the flesh?Who was manifest in the flesh ... God ... the Father ... the Son ...?1 Timothy 12 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.1 Timothy 25 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1 Timothy 316 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Mosiah 13: 34 Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?Mosiah 15: 1-4 AND now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son
Tanyan Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Yes, Functionaly Omnipresent, not Metaphysicaly/Ontiologicaly Omnipresent.Tanyan,Help me understand if you would. So the Holy Ghost is Functionally Omnipresent? I'm assuming that is how He is able to bare witness of Truth to those who seek it out.I don't understand how the Holy Ghost can be Funtionally Omnipresent without being Metaphysically Omnipresent. Isn't the Holy Ghost bearing witness of Gospel Truths to countless people across the world at the same time?I have been to a number of LDS meetings and heard people say, "Boy, the Spirit was sure strong here tonight!" Also, I have heard many LDS member talk about how strongly they feel the Spirit present while in the Temple.Is the Spirit really present?Peace be with you. #1 Yes, The HOLY GHOSTS "Function" is to bear witness of Truth at all times and in all places to those in tune. #2, AH, the Philosophical Doctrines of "Metaphysics", I take the advise of Paul in Collosians 2:8. #3 Without being Pantheistic He [THE HOLY GHOST] is everywhere present. Grace To You.
johnny Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Paul Osborne writes, Mosiah 13: 34 Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?Mosiah 15: 1-4 AND now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son
johnny Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Tanyan writes,#1 Yes, The HOLY GHOSTS "Function" is to bear witness of Truth at all times and in all places to those in tune. Would you agree with these functions?
Paul Osborne Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 How would you interpret the words "God himself ... take upon him the form of man" and "God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people"?I would intrepret it as saying that God who had neither a body nor a face made himself visible and dwelt among us.
johnny Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Paul Osborne writes, Do you mean that God the Father had no face or body prior to Christ getting a body? Is that how you visualize God prior to the incarnation of Christ? John 1 says "the Word" became flesh ... "the Word" has no face or body ... If that is your notion then you must also say that Adam was made in the image of a being that has no face, body, or shape. The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. I think it is clear in the O.T. that man saw the image of God prior to Christ receiving a body
Paul Osborne Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Johnny says:The Trinity: One God in three divine personsI agree that there is one God which consists of three divine persons: Father, Son, and Spirit. The Son came to earth to be crucified and died for the sins of all mankind. The Father and Spirit were safe in heaven, watched the execution firsthand, and protected the angels from Satan and his wicked host. 1. What did the Father and Spirit look like (image) while the Son was on earth?2. What did the Father and Spirit look like (image) before the Son came to earth?3. What do the Father and Spirit look like (image) right now?Why should I believe YOUR ideas? Paul O
Paul Osborne Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 If that is your notion then you must also say that Adam was made in the image of a being that has no face, body, or shape.The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him.Which Adam came first? [x] first[ ] secondThe first Adam was made in the image of God just as the first Seth was made in the image of the first Adam. I don
johnny Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Paul Osborne writes, The Son came to earth to be crucified and died for the sins of all mankind. The Father and Spirit were safe in heaven, watched the execution firsthand, and protected the angels from Satan and his wicked host. Mosiah 15: 1-4 says "ye should understand that God himself shall come down ... the very Eternal Father". How can the Father be safe in heaven when Mosiah 15 says God himself came down and redeemed his people ... the very Eternal Father? 1. What did the Father and Spirit look like (image) while the Son was on earth?2. What did the Father and Spirit look like (image) before the Son came to earth?3. What do the Father and Spirit look like (image) right now? The Father and Spirit are spirit ... they transcend.Why should I believe YOUR ideas? You shouldn't believe MY ideas ... you should believe the Spirit of truth because it will lead us to the truth. No, it doesn't say that. The Bible doesn't teach that God has no face. Prior to the incarnation where does the Bible teach that God has a human face?Will you now tell me that no one can see the faceless face of God and live?Moses did not see the face of God.
johnny Posted January 22, 2005 Posted January 22, 2005 Paul Osborne writes, Which Adam came first? The second Adam is from the beginning ... The first Adam was made in the image of God just as the first Seth was made in the image of the first Adam. The second Adam created the first Adam.I don
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