"professional" Vs. "modest Religious" Dress

[JDave]

Correct. It doesn't have anything to do with clothing.

 

But the underlying teaching is that if something I feel free to do makes another person sin then I'd better not do that something.

 

Would you agree or disagree?

Disagree.  Let's not get silly.  Such an idea could get extrapolated to anything you want, or any kind of man "like that".

 

Modesty is at its root an attitude, which oddly enough effects clothes.  If it is taught as a principle, then people will govern themselves.  If taught as a measuring stick, it will not be nearly as effective -- and some people will end up being beat by the stick (perhaps even self inflicted).

 

Consider a well endowed women who, regardless of how she attempts to dress modestly, finds that she gets attention from men due to her figure.  If she views modesty as a way of preventing men from having such thoughts, then she will feel that she must being doing this whole modesty thing wrong.  She may try and try, and feel guilty the whole time.  This is a true story by the way, anecdotal as it is.

[seriously honestly]

In the end, how would the way someone else dresses make you right or wrong with the Lord? 1. You can't make someone sin, and 2. neither myself nor anyone else is responsible for the sins of another. I'm not saying you are, but hypothetically if you're the type of guy who can't look at a women's shoulders without having impure thoughts, then problem is with you. Not with the fact that she's wearing a tank top when it's 95 degrees outside.

[Zakuska]

Jdave,

 

So you disagree that that is Pauls underlying teaching in the situation?

 

1 Cor. 8 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.[a]

4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.

 

Here we have people asking if its ok to do something they know isn't really wrong but they are free to do...  ie Go to an Idols temple and eat.  

 

To me Paul teaches thats its better for them not to do it least they make another fall. Even though its not really a sin to do it.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

serously honestly

 

In the end, how would the way someone else dresses make you right or wrong with the Lord?

 

I think verse 12 quoted above answers your question. Is it not a sin to even think about adultury. So if you cause another to sin (think about adultury) with something you do or say...

 

PS. I personally don't beleive what someone wears or doesnt wear has anything what so ever to do with ones salvation. Thus, after much reflection introspection and studying the scripture I relented and let my duaghter get guages and a nose ring.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Zakuska

[theplains]

• 1 Corinthians 8:13

  13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

So women should ablidge men "like that" and help by dressing Modestly. 

 

Modesty is a two-way street. The responsibility does not entirely fall on the woman.

In Islam, much of the attention is given to what the women should and should not wear,

but hijab is the duty of faithful men too.  See this article on IslamicInsights.

 

Regards,

Jim

[JDave]

Jdave,

 

So you disagree that that is Pauls underlying teaching in the situation?

 

To me Paul teaches thats its better for them not to do it least they make another fall. Even though its not really a sin.

The underlying teaching is not to assume there is some random man "like that" out there.  The underlying teaching is to be culturally attuned.  Modesty is quite a propos for Paul's teaching, but not in the way you are presenting.  If you are from a culture that frowns on even a little showing of skin, and you travel to an area that is very relaxed about the amount of skin shown, it would be inappropriate to chastise them for their immodesty.  If the situation were reversed, it would be inappropriate to show a lot of skin within the culture that frowns upon it, or to chastise them for feeling they need to cover up so much skin.

 

Be aware of what is culturally acceptable.  Now if someone knows what a culture considers alluring and sexually titillating, and they choose to dress and/or act in those ways, then I agree that they are accountable.  They are choosing to wear attire that is designed to cause someone to have improper thoughts.  This is where the principle or attitude of modesty comes in.  We govern ourselves, and try to allow others to do the same.  We shouldn't judge others harshly because we would have made different choices, or wished that they had made different choices.  It is a difficult subject because we all have different tolerances and ideas about what is, and isn't, acceptable in our culture. 

 

We can't draw the line based on some random man "like that".  We teach the principle and people live it.  And then we all live with each other.  Happily, and non-judgmentally. 

[Zakuska]

Modesty is a two-way street. The responsibility does not entirely fall on the woman.

In Islam, much of the attention is given to what the women should and should not wear,

but hijab is the duty of faithful men too.  See this article on IslamicInsights.

 

Regards,

Jim

Amen. I completely agree.

[Zakuska]

The underlying teaching is not to assume there is some random man "like that" out there.  The underlying teaching is to be culturally attuned.  Modesty is quite a propos for Paul's teaching, but not in the way you are presenting.  If you are from a culture that frowns on even a little showing of skin, and you travel to an area that is very relaxed about the amount of skin shown, it would be inappropriate to chastise them for their immodesty.  If the situation were reversed, it would be inappropriate to show a lot of skin within the culture that frowns upon it, or to chastise them for feeling they need to cover up so much skin.

 

Be aware of what is culturally acceptable.  Now if someone knows what a culture considers alluring and sexually titillating, and they choose to dress and/or act in those ways, then I agree that they are accountable.  They are choosing to wear attire that is designed to cause someone to have improper thoughts.  This is where the principle or attitude of modesty comes in.  We govern ourselves, and try to allow others to do the same.  We shouldn't judge others harshly because we would have made different choices, or wished that they had made different choices.  It is a difficult subject because we all have different tolerances and ideas about what is, and isn't, acceptable in our culture. 

 

We can't draw the line based on some random man "like that".  We teach the principle and people live it.  And then we all live with each other.  Happily, and non-judgmentally. 

You summarized my sentiments perfectly and more eloquently than I ever could have.  Thank you. (Gave you an up vote for that one)

Edited June 12, 2014 by Zakuska