"Egyptian Redaction" Theory & Fac 3

[Robert F. Smith]

bcuzbcuz, on 03 July 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

I've followed the discussions back and forth on this topic since they started. I'm confused. I fail to see how the mentioning of the word/name of abraham, written in Greek, in a document dealing with magic spells and incantations, but most importantly, written sometime around 100-300 CE, can have anything to do with the Mormon scripture, The Book of Abraham?

In the end, it doesn't have anything to do with the Book of Abraham. The best the Leiden Papyri can do is show that "Abraham is being associated with a lion couch scene in an Egyptian text." That's it. Left as is, readers of that statement might make jumps of their own to fill in the gaps of how that might be seen as evidence for the Book of Abraham's authenticity. But when looking at how Abraham is "associated" with this lion couch scene, there isn't much evidence that provides any sort of help in defending the Book of Abraham. It is not evidence showing Abraham upon a couch or altar being sacrificed nor is it evidence that Egyptians substituted Abraham in place of Osiris in their writings.

Quote

The Book of Abraham was written sometime around 300-100 BCE, in hieroglyphs and hieratic, and comes from a Book of Breathings. That's a difference of at least 200 years and even as much as 600 years, with the minor fact that Christianity came into existence right in the middle of this time period.

The only common point between these two, very different writings, is that all are written on papyrus. They don't even have the name Abraham in common.

You will find many that disagree that the Book of Abraham comes from the Book of Breathings that is in the pieces of JS Papyri we have now. They will argue that the Book of Abraham text is derived from papyri that we currently do not have, and it is upon that missing papyri that the text of the Book of Abraham was located. That papyri would clearly have Abraham's name upon it... if we had it.

bcuzbcuz' main problem is that he isn't actually having a discussion about any of this, and so hasn't taken seriously the long view of scholarship on the transmission of documents by scribes of the Jewish community in Egypt over thousands of years.

Even the scholars publishing the Papyrus Leiden recognized that "Alexandrian Judaism . . . has supplied a number of names of Hellenistic form to the demotic magician" (Griffith & Thompson, eds., The Demotic Magical Papyrus of London and Leiden. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1904/ Dover, 1974; Preface).

Hans Dieter Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation, including the Demotic Spells, 2 vols., 2nd ed. (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1992), has also taken notice of this question:

xlv, “Questions similar to those appropriate to study of Greek religion must be raised in view of the material (divine names as well as entire passages) that comes from some form of Judaism. Jewish magic was famous in antiquity, and more sources have come to light in recent years; but the origin and nature of the sections representing Jewish magic in the Greek magical papyri is far from clear. Did this material actually originate with Jewish magicians? How did it get into the hands of the magicians who wrote the Greek magical papyri? What kind of transformation took place in the material itself? If the texts in question come from Judaism, what type of Judaism do they represent?”

Someone made the claim that lion couches were never associated with Abraham. Others seem to have thought that Egyptians never took notice of Jewish religion, and that there was never substantial syncretism. Documentary evidence was supplied which falsified those claims. That doesn't prove that the Book of Abraham is authentic, but it does move us toward a more correct appraisal of some religious phenomena in late antiquity. After all, if we cannot even agree on those basics, any other issues which might come up will be far more intractable.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[bcuzbcuz]

bcuzbcuz' main problem is that he isn't actually having a discussion about any of this, and so hasn't taken seriously the long view of scholarship on the transmission of documents by scribes of the Jewish community in Egypt over thousands of years.

Even the scholars publishing the Papyrus Leiden recognized that "Alexandrian Judaism . . . has supplied a number of names of Hellenistic form to the demotic magician" (Griffith & Thompson, eds., The Demotic Magical Papyrus of London and Leiden. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1904/ Dover, 1974; Preface).

Hans Dieter Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation, including the Demotic Spells, 2 vols., 2nd ed. (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1992), has also taken notice of this question:

xlv, “Questions similar to those appropriate to study of Greek religion must be raised in view of the material (divine names as well as entire passages) that comes from some form of Judaism. Jewish magic was famous in antiquity, and more sources have come to light in recent years; but the origin and nature of the sections representing Jewish magic in the Greek magical papyri is far from clear. Did this material actually originate with Jewish magicians? How did it get into the hands of the magicians who wrote the Greek magical papyri? What kind of transformation took place in the material itself? If the texts in question come from Judaism, what type of Judaism do they represent?”

Someone made the claim that lion couches were never associated with Abraham. Others seem to have thought that Egyptians never took notice of Jewish religion, and that there was never substantial syncretism. Documentary evidence was supplied which falsified those claims. That doesn't prove that the Book of Abraham is authentic, but it does move us toward a more correct appraisal of some religious phenomena in late antiquity. After all, if we cannot even agree on those basics, any other issues which might come up will be far more intractable.

Maybe you can define what you see as the key ingredients of a discussion, since I'm "not actually having a discussion".

[USU78]

You may be right. There is no argument against magic or "lost" papyri.

"Lost" . . . your sneer is noted, but you really ought to look into the history of the papyri if you're going to venture into ribaldry . . . most of the papyri were burnt up in the Great Chicago Fire.

[Robert F. Smith]

Maybe you can define what you see as the key ingredients of a discussion, since I'm "not actually having a discussion".

You failed to respond to my earlier material on this thread which explained the longview that very rich Jewish scribal activity took place in Egypt, and I provided the titles of some of the works they produced and transmitted. That isn't my claim, but that of normative scholarship., and non-Mormon Bob Bianchi just provided some more sources along these lines (even though there is nothing new in the claims):

See Press report: "Was there a Jewish temple in ancient Egypt?" online at http://snipurl.com/27duu9z (http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Was-there-a-Jewish-temple-in-ancient-Egypt-318363).

For the archaeology of the Jewish temple there, see W. Kaiser, et al, in MDAIK 55 (1999), 142-145, the reconstruction of which, based on the evidence of the Aramaic papyri, had been earlier suggested by P. Grelot, in Orientalia 36 (1967), 173-77. An accessible account of the Jewish community there may be found in a small, popular account by E. Bleiberg, Jewish Life in Ancient Egypt (Brooklyn, The Brooklyn Museum of Art, 2002).

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ah... tried to warn you Crixus. After your last post I thought this might happen.

Pretty sure this was KG. Couldn't see this coming.

[Robert F. Smith]

Pretty sure this was KG. Couldn't see this coming.

Kevin Graham? I don't think so. Kevin is a whole lot smarter and more sophisticated. Plus, he and I have never had a tussle on this board.

[Brian 2.0]

Kevin Graham? I don't think so. Kevin is a whole lot smarter and more sophisticated. Plus, he and I have never had a tussle on this board.

Well... Kevin Graham has admitted it was him over on the over board... so consider yourself having tussled with him, I guess.

[Robert F. Smith]

Well... Kevin Graham has admitted it was him over on the over board... so consider yourself having tussled with him, I guess.

I stand corrected, I guess, Brian, and a bit sad that he lost his cool here. I used to enjoy his discussions here, and got a lot out of them -- despite his abuse of others -- because he was so substantively engaging.

Oh well . . .

Too bad he and I are not good friends. I love intellectual repartee.

Please give him my best regards. I'd do so myself, except his old email address no longer works. You have my permission to copy this to him.

[Brian 2.0]

I stand corrected, I guess, Brian, and a bit sad that he lost his cool here. I used to enjoy his discussions here, and got a lot out of them -- despite his abuse of others -- because he was so substantively engaging.

Oh well . . .

Too bad he and I are not good friends. I love intellectual repartee.

Please give him my best regards. I'd do so myself, except his old email address no longer works. You have my permission to copy this to him.

I passed this along to him.

You know him better than I. I actually don't know who he is at all, nor his history with this board or otherwise. This whole kerfuffle was my introduction to him.

[Robert F. Smith]

I passed this along to him.

You know him better than I. I actually don't know who he is at all, nor his history with this board or otherwise. This whole kerfuffle was my introduction to him.

Thanks, Brian.

Here's a press report just in today:

"Part of Egyptian Sphinx found in Northern Dig," http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169753#.Udv-aTvVDng ,

"(..) At a site in Tel Hazor National Park, north of the Sea of Galilee, archeologists from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem have unearthed part of a unique Sphinx belonging to one of the ancient pyramid-building pharaohs. The Hazor Excavations are headed by Prof. Amnon Ben-Tor, the Yigael Yadin Professor in the Archaeology of Eretz Israel at the Hebrew University's Institute of Archaeology, and Dr. Sharon Zuckerman, a lecturer at the Hebrew University's Institute of Archaeology. Working with a team from the Institute of Archaeology, they discovered part of a Sphinx brought over from Egypt, with a hieroglyphic inscription between its front legs. The inscription bears the name of the Egyptian king Mycerinus. (..) As the only known Sphinx of this king discovered anywhere in the world - including in Egypt - the find at Hazor is an unexpected and important discovery. Moreover, it is only piece of a royal Sphinx sculpture discovered in the entire Levant area (the eastern part of the Mediterranean). Along with the king's name, the hieroglyphic inscription includes the descriptor "Beloved by the divine manifestation. that gave him eternal life." According to Prof. Ben-Tor and Dr. Zuckerman, this text indicates that the Sphinx probably originated in the ancient city of Heliopolis (the city of 'On' in the Bible), north of modern Cairo. The Sphinx was discovered in the destruction layer of Hazor that was destroyed during the 13th century BCE, at the entrance to the city palace. (..)"

* Better photos of the sphinx fragment (incl. the inscription): http://holylandphotos.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/a-fragment-of-a-sphinx-found-at-hazor/ ,

* The press release: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-07/thuo-elm070913.php .

[Brian 2.0]

Thanks, Brian.

Here's a press report just in today:

"Part of Egyptian Sphinx found in Northern Dig," http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169753#.Udv-aTvVDng ,

"(..) At a site in Tel Hazor National Park, north of the Sea of Galilee, archeologists from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem have unearthed part of a unique Sphinx belonging to one of the ancient pyramid-building pharaohs. The Hazor Excavations are headed by Prof. Amnon Ben-Tor, the Yigael Yadin Professor in the Archaeology of Eretz Israel at the Hebrew University's Institute of Archaeology, and Dr. Sharon Zuckerman, a lecturer at the Hebrew University's Institute of Archaeology. Working with a team from the Institute of Archaeology, they discovered part of a Sphinx brought over from Egypt, with a hieroglyphic inscription between its front legs. The inscription bears the name of the Egyptian king Mycerinus. (..) As the only known Sphinx of this king discovered anywhere in the world - including in Egypt - the find at Hazor is an unexpected and important discovery. Moreover, it is only piece of a royal Sphinx sculpture discovered in the entire Levant area (the eastern part of the Mediterranean). Along with the king's name, the hieroglyphic inscription includes the descriptor "Beloved by the divine manifestation. that gave him eternal life." According to Prof. Ben-Tor and Dr. Zuckerman, this text indicates that the Sphinx probably originated in the ancient city of Heliopolis (the city of 'On' in the Bible), north of modern Cairo. The Sphinx was discovered in the destruction layer of Hazor that was destroyed during the 13th century BCE, at the entrance to the city palace. (..)"

* Better photos of the sphinx fragment (incl. the inscription): http://holylandphotos.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/a-fragment-of-a-sphinx-found-at-hazor/ ,

* The press release: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-07/thuo-elm070913.php .

Cool. Thanks for sharing this.

Though I'm not sure how it applies to BoA per say. Obviously it is evidence against those that would like to claim there was no exchange or borrowing between the Egytian and Jewish cultures, but I'm pretty sold on the idea that there was some.

[Robert F. Smith]

Cool. Thanks for sharing this.

Though I'm not sure how it applies to BoA per say. Obviously it is evidence against those that would like to claim there was no exchange or borrowing between the Egytian and Jewish cultures, but I'm pretty sold on the idea that there was some.

I did mention this amazing discovery by one of my former teachers (Prof. Amnon Ben-Tor), as you realize, due to the common misconception that Israelite and Egyptian cultures were not so close and that there is little to be gained by studying them. Indeed, one of my teachers at UCLA wrote the largest dissertation ever written on just this subject:

Mumford, Gregory, "International Relations Between Egypt, Sinai, and Syria-Palestine in the LB Age to Early Persian Period (Dynasties 18-26; ca. 1550-525 B.C.): A Spatial and Temporal Analysis of the Distribution and Proportions of Egyptian(izing) Artefacts and Pottery in Sinai and Selected Sites in Syria-Palestine," 4 vols., doctoral dissertation (University of Toronto, 1998). Now with the Univ. of Alabama, Dr. Mumford continues regular excavations in Egypt and the Sinai Desert. http://www.deltasinai.com/ .

Edited July 11, 2013 by Robert F. Smith