Rob Osborn Posted January 12, 2013 Posted January 12, 2013 If one is led to believe the church is true, then he or she must acknowledge at some point the BoM is a true historical document far removed from some ficticious tale. So if one teters not knowing, then he/she must re-examine their own testimony. It is bothersome when church members cant find direct evidence from "mans" point of view and thus conclude parts or, the tale itself is mere fiction. How is that humble saying go..."oh ye of little faith".To be a member of this church requires faith. In due time the BoM will be proven completely true and exactly historical.
glitterNgold Posted January 12, 2013 Posted January 12, 2013 Rob,That is like saying one must believe the Old Testament is literal and the earth was created 6000 years ago etc., etc.A person really can find inspiration in made up stories. It's called fantasy and imagination. It is the spice of life.
ERayR Posted January 12, 2013 Posted January 12, 2013 Rob,That is like saying one must believe the Old Testament is literal and the earth was created 6000 years ago etc., etc.A person really can find inspiration in made up stories. It's called fantasy and imagination. It is the spice of life.The problem is one will never come face to face with Jesus Christ on fantasy and imagination.
canard78 Posted January 12, 2013 Posted January 12, 2013 The problem is one will never come face to face with Jesus Christ on fantasy and imagination.Meeting Jesus is not conditional on our historical view of Jesus. It's based on whether we treat people with kindness. It's based on loving God and loving our neighbour. It's based on making and keeping covenants. It's based on who and what we become in life.All of that can still be done while taking the Book of Mormon principles and applying them to our lives, regardless of whether the book is historical or allegorical. I've not reached the conclusion that the book is not historical. I'm pointing out that its ability to change lives and deliver certain promised blessings dependent on reading it can still happen, whatever the history.
glitterNgold Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Rob,Do u suppose one must become all serious and businesslike to meet God?
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Rob,That is like saying one must believe the Old Testament is literal and the earth was created 6000 years ago etc., etc.A person really can find inspiration in made up stories. It's called fantasy and imagination. It is the spice of life.No, not quite, its saying that Lehi and company were real literal historical figures who built a ship from the old world, sailed across the ocean, landed somewhere in South or North America, built up a civilization, found ruins and remains of an earlier civilization (the Jaredites), and then witnessed Christ come, then hundreds of years after that, destroyed their civilization in many wars. None of that is fantasy, fiction, faierie tale, etc...
glitterNgold Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Rob,A fictional Book of Mormon can't destroy the church and make God disappear. You don't need to put so much weight on it. Many Christians look at the Old Testament as allegory and do just fine as Christians.Peace,GNG
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Meeting Jesus is not conditional on our historical view of Jesus. It's based on whether we treat people with kindness. It's based on loving God and loving our neighbour. It's based on making and keeping covenants. It's based on who and what we become in life.All of that can still be done while taking the Book of Mormon principles and applying them to our lives, regardless of whether the book is historical or allegorical. I've not reached the conclusion that the book is not historical. I'm pointing out that its ability to change lives and deliver certain promised blessings dependent on reading it can still happen, whatever the history.To meet Jesus one must know him. Fantasy and imagination will not know him. If it did all one would need is Lord of the Rings or Grimm's Fairy Tales.Rob,Do u suppose one must become all serious and businesslike to meet God?What did I say to give you that idea? 1
glitterNgold Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 ERayR,Why do you discount our use of imagination? Do you ever look at a painting (of mythical characters, say) and find some sort of inspiration?
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 ERayR,Why do you discount our use of imagination? Do you ever look at a painting (of mythical characters, say) and find some sort of inspiration?I don't discount the use of imagination but imagination will not bring you face to face with Christ. If it did one could read Homer or Tolkien or even Grimm's Fairy Tales. They may inspire you to do greater things but they do not contain salvation. 1
glitterNgold Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 ERayR,I'm sorry you feel that way. I believe the use of our imagination is essential.
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 ERayR,I'm sorry you feel that way. I believe the use of our imagination is essential.You persist in misrepresenting my position.Why do you think imagination to be essential in coming face to face with Jesus Christ?
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Rob,A fictional Book of Mormon can't destroy the church and make God disappear. You don't need to put so much weight on it. Many Christians look at the Old Testament as allegory and do just fine as Christians.Peace,GNGThere may be some allegory in the OT but the figures themselves are real and historical including many of the events recorded. I would bet that the church would fail if the BoM was in fact a work of fiction. The paramount doctrine in the BoM is Jesus Christ appearing to the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. The LDS religion bases its entire set of beliefs on the accuracy of the BoM regarding Christ's appearance. The stories of the Nephites and Lamanites, even the Jaredites, all build up and support the historical reality. If there are LDS members who view the BoM as fictional, then they really must examine why in fact they are members. Its rather difficult to be a supporting Mormon if you think Mormon was a fictional character.
canard78 Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 To meet Jesus one must know him. Fantasy and imagination will not know him. If it did all one would need is Lord of the Rings or Grimm's Fairy Tales.I didn't use the words fantasy and imagination. That was glitterNgold. I'm not saying Jesus is fictional. The Book of Mormon is certainly a testament of Christ a very real testament of Christ. It's a testament of Christ independent of who wrote it and how it was written.Again: I'm not saying the Book of Mormon is fiction. I'm saying the 'words' remain a guide for life and testament of Christ independent of authorship. If someone can't fully accept its historical origins, they can still find value from the words they read.
glitterNgold Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 "Only real stories can help me be a better person."That, to me, is similar to saying only a true story about Jesus will bring salvation. I don't agree with that.
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I didn't use the words fantasy and imagination. That was glitterNgold. I'm not saying Jesus is fictional. The Book of Mormon is certainly a testament of Christ a very real testament of Christ. It's a testament of Christ independent of who wrote it and how it was written.Again: I'm not saying the Book of Mormon is fiction. I'm saying the 'words' remain a guide for life and testament of Christ independent of authorship. If someone can't fully accept its historical origins, they can still find value from the words they read.To accept the BoM as a guide for life while not accepting its origins is better than rejecting it altogether. However, one can not come face to face with Jesus with those kind of doubts. Ether 3:9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me aflesh and blood; and never has man come before me with bsuch exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this? 2
canard78 Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 To accept the BoM as a guide for life while not accepting its origins is better than rejecting it altogether. However, one can not come face to face with Jesus with those kind of doubts.Ether 3:9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me aflesh and blood; and never has man come before me with bsuch exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?"However, one can not come face to face with Jesus with those kind of doubts." Do you mean in this life, or the next? If the former, I doubt many of us will. If the latter, CFR that only those who consider the BoM to be factual and historical will be able to meet Jesus face to face after death.
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) "However, one can not come face to face with Jesus with those kind of doubts." Do you mean in this life, or the next? If the former, I doubt many of us will. If the latter, CFR that only those who consider the BoM to be factual and historical will be able to meet Jesus face to face after death.If you have doubts that the BoM is factual you must of necessity doubt the truth claims of the Church that espouses them. If you doubt those claims you are in effect doubting the words of Christ given through his prophets. If you doubt the words of Christ you can not develop faith enough to stand face to face with Jesus Christ on either side of the veil. Whether you will get another chance eons down the line is unknown but if your doubts stop you here stepping across the veil is not going to help.You are misusing the CFR. I never asserted proof. But you might read and ponder the Brother of Jared account in Ether. Be sure and follow the footnotes and links. Edited January 13, 2013 by ERayR
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 "Only real stories can help me be a better person."That, to me, is similar to saying only a true story about Jesus will bring salvation. I don't agree with that.Do you believe Jesus Christ actually appeared to the ancient inhabitants of the Americas as the BoM claims?
Storm Rider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 "Only real stories can help me be a better person."That, to me, is similar to saying only a true story about Jesus will bring salvation. I don't agree with that.Which false story of Jesus brings you salvation? Just curious. 1
canard78 Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) If you have doubts that the BoM is factual you must of necessity doubt the truth claims of the Church that espouses them. If you doubt those claims you are in effect doubting the words of Christ given through his prophets. If you doubt the words of Christ you can not develop faith enough to stand face to face with Jesus Christ on either side of the veil. Whether you will get another chance eons down the line is unknown but if your doubts stop you here stepping across the veil is not going to help.You are misusing the CFR. I never asserted proof. But you might read and ponder the Brother of Jared account in Ether. Be sure and follow the footnotes and links.Maybe you should rephrase this comment then if you don't want to answer the CFR. If you are not saying this is something that applies to me, all members and even all of the human family based on doctrine it might be better to change what you're saying. My edits of what I think you might be saying in bold italics and strike through:"If I you have doubts that the BoM is factual I would you must of necessity doubt the truth claims of the Church that espouses them. If I you doubt those claims I am you are in effect doubting the words of Christ given through his prophets. If I you doubt the words of Christ I you can not develop faith enough to stand face to face with Jesus Christ on either side of the veil. Whether I you will get another chance eons down the line is unknown but if My your doubts stop me you here stepping across the veil is not going to help.I'm very happy for you to say that if you cannot take the Book of Mormon literally, then you ultimately cannot have faith in Jesus Christ. That does not apply to me and unless you can show me where God has revealed this, you can't say it does apply to me and all people. If you are saying it only applies to you and your testimony, no CFR needed. If you are saying it does apply to me, then I am simply asking for references and examples which teaches me this principle (Bro of Jared does not say this). I am 'calling for references' that a BoM historical belief is a requirement for having faith in Jesus Christ and being able to see him face-to-face.I am not and will not try to prove the BoM to be non-literal. That is neither my intention now objective. I am more than happy if it is historical. I hope it is. Archaeology etc suggests it probably is. But my testimony is not dependent on it being so. I can understand why its historical literalness becomes 'sudden death' for some members. It is not for me. I can continue to have faith in Jesus Christ, Joseph as a prophet and the impact of the words of the Book of Mormon, independent of whether the people in the book are historical or not. Edited January 13, 2013 by canard78
glitterNgold Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I believe attaining salvation is not a one-size-fits all process. People are moved (motivated, inspired) by different things. As a recently returned missionary, I was deeply moved by the movie Legacy. I watched it many times on the big screen in the JSM building. It was a catalyst for many other good decisions I made. There is truth told in the movie Legacy but a lot of it is fictional characters speaking embellished and fictional dialogue.I can think of many works of fiction that inspired me to be a better person- Hugo, Bronte, ****ens, Hardy, etc
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I believe attaining salvation is not a one-size-fits all process. People are moved (motivated, inspired) by different things. As a recently returned missionary, I was deeply moved by the movie Legacy. I watched it many times on the big screen in the JSM building. It was a catalyst for many other good decisions I made. There is truth told in the movie Legacy but a lot of it is fictional characters speaking embellished and fictional dialogue.I can think of many works of fiction that inspired me to be a better person- Hugo, Bronte, ****ens, Hardy, etcI can think of many works of fiction that have motivated me in my life. Even Christ told fictional parables that have had drastic effects on a myriad of souls.However, if we paint something such as the Book of Mormon as a fairytale then it truly undermines the gospel of Jesus Christ and leaves one with doubt.
glitterNgold Posted January 14, 2013 Posted January 14, 2013 Rob,Might you be willing to agree that a little piece is fiction and despite this, the book overall will lead a person to salvation? For example, the Jaredites carrying bees in enclosed vessels or the stripling warriors? Might a little bit of fiction (very little) destroy the overall power of the book on its followers? Please note: I'm not saying these are fairytales but just using them as examples.
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