thesometimesaint Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Waldon:I lived in Alabama. With all those Confederate flags flying one could rightly wonder if Alabamans consider themselves American.Considering all the sectarian wars that have been fought throughout history the Protestants have little to nothing to crow about. Yet we still consider them Christians.
Vance Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Sometimes. Not all times.I have yet to see an example of one of those "Not all times". Can you provide one?
thesometimesaint Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:Sometimes. Not all times.For the life of me I can't think of a single time when it has not been all times.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) I have yet to see an example of one of those "Not all times". Can you provide one?Witherington. I don't think his writing was a pejorative against the LDS Church or it's members. I think Worthington is respectable enough to use this as a starting point for a discussion, not end it. Edited August 29, 2012 by The Grimace
Walden Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 If anything, your quote here is is deeply ironic. If we consider ourselves a truer, fuller form of Christianity than other denominations, wouldn't we find it annoying if other denominations said we aren't Christian?You must have missed my post about the completely manmade construct of Christianity. "Christianity", IMO, is not a term that god or christ are concerned with. Christianity is a manmade term to describe the collective beliefs of various denominations who purport to worship christ and adhere to his biblical teachings.The LDS church considers other religions to only be partly true, at best; the LDS church is the true church on the earth, not the true "christian" church on the earth, but the true church on the earth, period. The truthfulness of the LDS church transcends all human contructs and simplified classifications such as 'christian," "muslim", "buddhist," etc. 1
thesometimesaint Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:A respectful opponent wouldn't rely on Special Pleadings to make his case.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Robert F. Smith,I couldn't stomach any more comments. I'm glad you were able to get through them all. I went to bed with a sick stomach (emotionally) because all I could think about as I read the different responses by Witherington is how he misunderstands us so badly and yet feels he understands us so well he can reject us from the brotherhood of Christ.Actually, we weren't allowed to view all of them. Many were deleted or blocked from the blog, including Blake Ostler's reply to the essay. One can see this most clearly when Witherington responds to Blake's non-existent reply. Only after that is Blake allowed to carry on a conversation with Witherington. Not only are Mormons read out of Christendom, but the so-called "christians" engage in dirty-pool to prevent any real engagement on the issue. 1
thesometimesaint Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Walden:We still consider them Christians, despite our limited theological differences.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Waldon:I lived in Alabama. With all those Confederate flags flying one could rightly wonder if Alabamans consider themselves American.Considering all the sectarian wars that have been fought throughout history the Protestants have little to nothing to crow about. Yet we still consider them Christians.Speak for yourself.
Zakuska Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 FYI, Romney is to speak on mormonism in his speach tomorow night.http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-daily-rundown/48826352#48824676Something intresting, Joe Scarbrough says... growing up in the deep south all his Evangelical aquaintences considered Mormons "Christian" allies.Intresting revelation.
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 See link and my response here:https://mormonscript...2012/08/28/670/Thank you Bill; I like your replies. Here are some additional thoughts that you might like to add to your reply:1. Mormons are polytheists, not monotheists. That is, they believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate beings, thus denying the essential monotheistic statements of both the OT and NT that God is One.Be that as it may, the reality is that most Christians, including most Evangelicals, would be unable to accurately explain the Nicene Creed and its concept of Trinity, even if they affirmed it in theory. Are none of them Christians? Was a medieval peasant not a Christian because he couldn’t recite, let alone understand, the Nicene Creed? Must one affirm the Nicene concept of the Trinity to be a Christian? Or must one affirm that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?I am not sure that the Nicene Creed does teach the trinitarianism of modern day Christendom. It says nothing about “three persons in one God,” which is the standard theological expression used by modern day Trinitarians, for example. That is more like the language of the Athanasian Creed which has proved to be a bit of an embarrassment to Christendom at large, because of its obscure origin, and absurdity of its language and theology; and to all intents and purposes it has been abandoned by mainstream Christian churches.2. Mormons, thus, not surprisingly, deny the doctrine of the Trinity ... Quite true ... Not true! Mormons don’t deny the Trinity. We believe in the Trinity of the Bible, which are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Our first Article of Faith states, “We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost”. That is the Trinity. What we reject is the post-Apostate interpretation of that Trinity which he is the advocate of, not the Trinity itself. To say that we don't believe in the Trinity is calculated to give people the false impression that we don't believe in the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, which of course is not correct. That is the Trinity.4. Just as they believe that the early church became apostate, they also believe the Bible as we have it is not inerrant ... Second, is the Bible inerrant? From a historical and textual perspective, the only possible answer is no. There are clear contradictions in the Bible, and many cases of uncertain textual variants. There are also scientific errors of all sorts. Note, however, that Mormons don’t maintain that the Christology of the Bible is false. We believe it has been interpreted so many different ways by so many theologians and churches that it alone is insufficient. Before addressing the question of inerrancy, I think that in fairness we need first to find out exactly what they mean by inerrant. I would ask him to explain to me what inerrant means to him before answering him. If he means that there can be no scribal errors or textual variants in the manuscripts, then I would agree that the scriptures are not inerrant. But I suspect that is not what he means by inerrant. I assume what he means is that there are no doctrinal or theological errors in it; in which case I would agree with him that the Bible is inerrant. And so is the Book of Mormon and other LDS scripture. To me inerrancy means that one cannot be led astray from the path that leads to God by heeding the words of the scriptures, which is what the scriptures teach us about the word of God. It is the “iron rod” which unfailingly leads those who heed it to the tree of life (1 Nephi 15:24). It is the “will of the Lord, ... mind of the Lord ... word of the Lord ... voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation” (D&C 68:4). “... in the which is the fulness of the gospel” (D&C 42:12). That is what it means to me; and assuming that that is what it means to him, then I should agree with him that scripture is inerrant.5. In terms of soteriology, Mormons deny the sufficiency of Christ’s death for salvation. That is of course false. Mormons don’t deny the sufficiency of Christ’s Atonement. Our disagreement with Evangelicals is how one responds to that Atonement. Even Evangelicals don’t believe that the Atonement saves people in spite of themselves. It requires a response from man. The difference is that whereas they see that response as faith alone, we agree with the Bible that it is more than that. It is faith, plus repentance, plus keeping the commandments. Repentance and keeping the commandments are two sides of this same coin. They are inseparable. You can’t do repentance without committing yourself to keeping the commandments, because that is what repentance means. Repentance is more than just being sorry, as they apparently believe. If you are sorry for shoplifting, and then go and do it again, then you have not repented of it at all, no matter how sorry you may be. The Evangelical doctrine of justification by faith alone is nothing more than an excuse to justify themselves in their sins, without having the intention of genuinely repenting of them. Woe unto them for perverting the right ways of the Lord!5. They suggest, as the linked article says, that each of us must do all we can and then trust in the mercy of God. In other words, the de facto position is that Mormonism is to a significant degree a works religion even when it comes to salvation. Not true; see above. The following quote also requires a response:SPOILER ALERT: THINGS YOU SHOULD NOT SAY IN RESPONSE TO THIS POST1) ‘You’re just prejudiced, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and that’s just your opinion’. I don’t think that he “doesn’t know what he is talking about”. I think that he is being plain dishonest and patently evil. It is a deliberate act of misrepresentation. I think that he knows perfectly well what he is doing.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:A respectful opponent wouldn't rely on Special Pleadings to make his case.Now hold on - that wasn't the question - I wasn't asked to provide a reference to someone who writes free of fallacies. I was only asked to provide an example of someone who didn't use the topic "Mormons aren't Christians" as a pejorative against the LDS Church or it's members.
Vance Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Worthington. I don't think his writing was a pejorative against the LDS Church or it's members.I disagree. Especially considering his "preemptive" poisoning of the well and his responses to some of the comments. I think Worthington is respectable enough to use this as a starting point for a discussion, not end it.See above. It was rather OBVIOUS that "discussion" was not in his agenda.
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) I agree with Grimace; what is the LDS obsession with being classified as "christian?"There is no obsession about it. It is a matter of dealing with an attack on Mormonism. Accusing Mormons of not being Christians is intended to portray Mormons as not being followers of Jesus Christ. That accusation is false, therefore we respond to it.Why the longing to be included in a group who's members do not have the full truth or the full gospel, in the eye's of the LDS church?There is no “longing” about it. We are Christians, in spite of how the enemies of the Church like to misrepresent it otherwise.Is this a tactic to make the LDS church more appealing to outsiders?It is a tactic to defeat the enemies of the Church who like to portray us as not being true followers of Jesus Christ.Is it an LDS strategy in the fight against mainstream christianities attempt to marginalize the LDS church?Partly yes.Honestly, why the LDS obsession with being classified as "christian?" The LDS church used to take pride in being "peculiar", and honestly, that peculiarity played a part in the LDS church's attraction to converts from the mainstream christian community. Now, the church, or rather, it's apologists, seem to be almost begging the mainstream christian community for admission into their "exclusive" club. Why?I will tell you what is wrong with that question. The point is that Christianity is Apostate, and the LDS Church is a Restoration of the original and true Christianity of the first century, which Christ and His Apostles established. The Apostate churches like to fight the Restored gospel because their craft is being threatened; and we like to tell them where they can get off the bus. Edited August 29, 2012 by zerinus 1
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 "because Christ is our God".....wait, now maybe I am misunderstanding the LDS theology on which I was raised. I was taught to believe that God is god, and christ is his son, they are two distinct beings, and that we worship god through christ. How then can christ be the LDS god? No wonder this trinity thing gets so confusing....Jesus certainly is the "LDS God". For brevity I will refrain from quoting references. And you guys are the ones who are confused about the Trinity, not us. For the rest see my reply to your previous post.
thesometimesaint Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:The pejorative is that Mormons aren't Christian. It is the use of Special Pleadings in support of that proposition that make it disrespectful.I'm fine with people disagreeing with my religion. Just as I disagree with theirs. Such is the nature of discussions of religion. What is disrespectful is the willful misstating of the other persons religious beliefs for decidedly sectarian purposes. IOW To stop debate, and resort to name calling. 1
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 To me, it is more like an immigrant from Mexico who comes to the United States and argues that the US recognize him as a citizen because he now lives in the United States, now works in the United States, now spends his money in the Unted States, adheres to the laws of the United States and thus he should be recognized as a citizen....those things do not make him a citizen of the United States; the United States gets to determine who it's citizens are.For a religion that was based on the premise that all the christian churches are incomplete and do not contain the fullness of christ, I just find the LDS church's desire to now be included in their fold to be humorously ironic.You got that the wrong way round. If you want an analogy, it is more like the Russians conquering and taking over the US administration, and driving the true citizens out or relegating them to second class citizens; while calling themselves the true Americans; and the true Americans who have been exiled now reclaiming their true American heritage by opposing the occupiers.
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 One could say the exact same thing about the LDS church's belief that they are god's one, true church on earth.If you want to interpret it that way, so be it. In that case then we would have to argue that we are the Christians, and you are not. Fortunately, however, you are in a minority in deciding who is and who is not a Christian.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:The pejorative is that Mormons aren't Christian. It is the use of Special Pleadings in support of that proposition that make it disrespectful.The *hypothesis* is that Mormons are not Christian. Any pejorative would lie in the way that hypothesis is supported. Special pleading is a fallacy and does not make an argument disrespectful. Fallacies make an argument weak.Now, if you'd like to respond to Witherington and support your claim that he used special pleading to make his case, that is an open option. I'm fine with people disagreeing with my religion. Just as I disagree with theirs. Such is the nature of discussions of religion. What is disrespectful is the willful misstating of the other persons religious beliefs for decidedly sectarian purposes. IOW To stop debate, and resort to name calling.Witherington did not resort to name calling. He stated a position and supported it. And from what I can see, in both his blog post and his comments, Witherington has done so respectfully.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 If you want to interpret it that way, so be it. In that case then we would have to argue that we are the Christians, and you are not. Fortunately, however, you are in a minority in deciding who is and who is not a Christian.If it's a majority vote, I'd say that the majority have ruled that Mormons are not Christians. Perhaps we best not listen to the majority.
Walden Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Jesus certainly is the "LDS God". For brevity I will refrain from quoting references. And you guys are the ones who are confused about the Trinity, not us. For the rest see my reply to your previous post.Believe me, I am not one of the "guys" you are referring to when you state "you guys are the ones who are confused about the Trinity, not us".....I am an atheist who finds the whole thing silly and inconsequential.If Jesus is God, then who was that guy standing next to Jesus in all the LDS depictions of the first vision?
Walden Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 If you want to interpret it that way, so be it. In that case then we would have to argue that we are the Christians, and you are not. Fortunately, however, you are in a minority in deciding who is and who is not a Christian.Believe me, I proudly proclaim and embrace the fact that I am not a christian
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 You must have missed my post about the completely manmade construct of Christianity. "Christianity", IMO, is not a term that god or christ are concerned with. Christianity is a manmade term to describe the collective beliefs of various denominations who purport to worship christ and adhere to his biblical teachings.The word Christian is an ancient word that was used in the New Testament to refer to the first disciples of Jesus Christ. It is not a modern word to refer to the "various denominations". There was only one denomination when it was first used--the true disciples of Jesus Christ. Following the Apostasy of the Early Christian Church it became applicable to all the denominations which emerged from that Apostasy, which includes Evangelicalism. Now that the original true Church has been restored, it is being used once again to refer to that one true Church, at it was anciently.The LDS church considers other religions to only be partly true, at best; the LDS church is the true church on the earth, not the true "christian" church on the earth, but the true church on the earth, period. The truthfulness of the LDS church transcends all human contructs and simplified classifications such as 'christian," "muslim", "buddhist," etc.Being the only true Church makes it the only true Christian Church.
Gervin Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Good response, but you are being entirely too charitable in this matter, and maybe we all should, even though we are the only actual Christians.Thanks for identifying the problem: you've got traditional Christians who are making claims about the LDS Church but operating under the distinct disadvantage of not only not being actual Christians but, also, not knowing that they are not actual Christians. It seems to me that the response of the actual Christians should be Christ-like sympathy for these (us) lost souls and some empathy for their (our) plight. Two-thousand-plus years of calling ourselves Christian while not being actual Christians can result in a lot of ingrained ignorance. Rather than taking offense when supposed Christians lash out at the LDS Church I think the response of the actual Christian should be to love and guide those who are bereft of actual Christianity. How else will we obtain what we don't actually have?
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Believe me, I am not one of the "guys" you are referring to when you state "you guys are the ones who are confused about the Trinity, not us".....I am an atheist who finds the whole thing silly and inconsequential.If Jesus is God, then who was that guy standing next to Jesus in all the LDS depictions of the first vision?They are both God.Believe me, I proudly proclaim and embrace the fact that I am not a christianAnd I proudly proclaim that I am.
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