The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 If Jesus is God, then who was that guy standing next to Jesus in all the LDS depictions of the first vision?God.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 They are both God.AH GOOD! We are now getting somewhere. Are there two gods?
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 AH GOOD! We are now getting somewhere. Are there two gods?They are two Gods, but one in purpose, mind, and will. Worshipping one is the same as worshipping the other.
thesometimesaint Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:You could call a cat a dog. A dog wouldn't know what you were talking about and a cat would understandably be insulted. To insist through logical fallacies like Special Pleadings just compounds the insult.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 They are two Gods, but one in purpose, mind, and will. Worshipping one is the same as worshipping the other.Thank you, Zerinus. Now that we've admitted that Mormonism has two gods, both of whom are worshipped, I'd make a serious inquiry about whether this is a notion found in other Christian denominations. Now, intuitively, from what I know of other Christian denominations, stating there are two gods, both of whom are worshipped, would be akin to heresy. But I don't know for certain. But I could see how making this claim would put one squarely outside the bounds of Christianity. Like I said, I don't know for sure - maybe there are other Christian sects that worship more than one god?
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 If it's a majority vote, I'd say that the majority have ruled that Mormons are not Christians. Perhaps we best not listen to the majority.It is not a majority vote. It is a term that is defined in the Bible. It means the true disciples of Jesus Christ.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:You could call a cat a dog. A dog wouldn't know what you were talking about and a cat would understandably be insulted. To insist through logical fallacies like Special Pleadings just compounds the insult.We disagree. Logical fallacies, formal and informal, usually indicate sloppiness or weakness. Not insults. But enough abstraction. Please point to the offensive parts of Witherington's essay and show how Special Pleading makes those parts especially offensive.
thesometimesaint Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:That would be a charge of polytheism which Christians have fought against for the 2000 years. Just ask a Jew or a Muslim.
thesometimesaint Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:Sloppiness and weakness of argument is not exclusive of insult.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:Sloppiness and weakness of argument is not exclusive of insult.Nor are they indicative.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The Grimace:That would be a charge of polytheism which Christians have fought against for the 2000 years. Just ask a Jew or a Muslim.And yet Zerinus shows us that there are at least two gods in Mormonism - Jesus and His Father.
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Thank you, Zerinus. Now that we've admitted that Mormonism has two gods, both of whom are worshipped, I'd make a serious inquiry about whether this is a notion found in other Christian denominations.It is irrelevant from my point of view whether it is or not. It is in the Bible, and that is what counts.Now, intuitively, from what I know of other Christian denominations, stating there are two gods, both of whom are worshipped, would be akin to heresy. But I don't know for certain.I don't care whether it does or not. See above.But I could see how making this claim would put one squarely outside the bounds of Christianity.You mean out of the bounds of Apostate Christianity. That is quite possible. We don't claim to be part of Apostate Christianity. We are a restoration of the original and true form of Christianity that is found in the Bible.Like I said, I don't know for sure - maybe there are other Christian sects that worship more than one god?And as I said, it is irrelevant from my point of view what they believe or don't believe about that.
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 And yet Zerinus shows us that there are at least two gods in Mormonism - Jesus and His Father.That is correct.
Vance Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) And yet Zerinus shows us that there are at least two gods in Mormonism - Jesus and His Father.That sounds like the "trinity" thingy, you know that,The Father is God.The Son is God.The Holy Ghost is God.The Father is not the Son.The Father is not the Holy Ghost.The Son is not the Holy Ghost.That sounds like THREE Gods, right? Edited August 29, 2012 by Vance
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) That sounds like the "trinity" thingy, you know that,That sounds like THREE Gods, right?Christian trinity: One god, three personages, none are god, all are distinct, only God togetherMormon trinity: Three gods, three personages, all are distinct, all have the same goal (or two gods, depending on how you count the Holy Ghost), all are god, individually Edited August 29, 2012 by The Grimace
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Christian trinity: One god, three personages, none are god, all are distinct, only God togetherYou keep getting your terminology wrong. That is not the Christian Trinity. It is the Apostate Christian Trinity.Mormon trinity: Three gods, three personages, all are distinct, all have the same goal (or two gods, depending on how you count the Holy Ghost), all are god, individuallyMormonism teaches the biblical doctrine of the Trinity, which is the true Christian Trinity.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 You keep getting your terminology wrong. That is not the Christian Trinity. It is the Apostate Christian Trinity.CFR on the term "Apostate Christian Trinity" or "Apostate Christianity"
zerinus Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 CFR on the term "Apostate Christian Trinity" or "Apostate Christianity"The evidence for it is in the Restoration. The Restoration was made necessary because of the Apostasy of the Early Christian Church. The fact that you do not believe in the Restoration does not alter that fact for us who know that it is true. The false doctrine of the Trinity that you keep harping on about is the Apostate doctrine of the Trinity, which is what makes it false. Mormonism has the true doctrine of the Trinity restored by revelation from heaven.
The Grimace Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 The evidence for it is in the Restoration. The Restoration was made necessary because of the Apostasy of the Early Christian Church. The fact that you do not believe in the Restoration does not alter that fact for us who know that it is true. The false doctrine of the Trinity that you keep harping on about is the Apostate doctrine of the Trinity, which is what makes it false. Mormonism has the true doctrine of the Trinity restored by revelation from heaven.So "Apostate Christianity" is a term you invented. Is this your personal belief or is this what the majority of Mormons believe - that so-called mainstream Christianity is an apostate form of Christianity?And if this is the case, why on earth would Mr. Hamblin be arguing to be a part of this apostate form of Christianity?
Walden Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Grimace, it is true, mormonism believes that mainstream christianity is an apostate form of christianity, and thus the need for the restoration.And zerinus, I think that you and I are confusing the moderm, commonly accepted terminology of "christian" with the ancient use of the term. Yes, I understand that it it's most primitive usage, a christian is simply a follower of christ. As a mormon, I always considered myself a christian, and to this day, I still consider mormons christians in that primitive, most basic sense of the word.Over twenty or so centuries, however, the term "christian" has taken on new meanings, and particulalry, the idea of "mainstream christianity" has become almost a subset of christianity itself; this is the terminology that I am referencing in my questioning the LDS need to be embraced by the mainstream christian community.
Zeta-Flux Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 "because Christ is our God".....wait, now maybe I am misunderstanding the LDS theology on which I was raised. I was taught to believe that God is god, and christ is his son, they are two distinct beings, and that we worship god through christ. How then can christ be the LDS god? No wonder this trinity thing gets so confusing.Yes, it can be confusing. Which is one of the reasons why it was premature of Witherington to try and comment on LDS doctrine.To answer your questions: the phrase "they are two distinct beings" is LDS shorthand for "they have distinct bodies". It does not necessarily imply distinctness on any other level.We do worship the Father through Christ, as do classical trinitarians. That does not imply that Christ is not God. If you have an issue with this terminology you similarly have an issue with the creeds.And maybe "obsession" is too strong a word, but there certainly seems to be a mormon preoccupation with being accepted as a member of the mainstream christian movement.....just take a look at the discussion board here on any given day and there are generally three or so links discussing why mormons are christians.But, as I explained, it is not to be included under the umbrella of traditional Christianity, or to "join the club", but to make it clear what we really believe. And we really believe Christ is the son of God. It is the most central and important part of our doctrine there is.To say otherwise is to spread falsehood. We don't care whether people think we are "mainstream", but we definitely care if they are being told we don't believe in Christ.If you truly don't care to be "included in the "group" of protestant Christianity", then why do some apologists go to such lengths to try to prove to mainstream christianity (which itself is a completely man-made construct) that the LDS church is in fact christian? I mean, really, the classifications and constraints of mainstream christianity are a man-made construct that is utilized to more easily classify and categorize relgious affiliations, as well as provide a basis for the "us and them" arguments that are used as a wedge by all religions. Why do some LDS apologists care so much to be part of this construct?As I said earlier, the reason is because the average person understands "Christian" to mean "follower of Christ" not "part of mainstream protestantism or Catholicism".And if all of the arguments for "mormons are christians" are simply to clear up any misinformation, then why not simply hand out and espouse the articles of faith, which I think rather simply, succintly and clearly lay out the basic beliefs of the general LDS population, and then just let the mainstream christians quibble over that?Because, often enough, the ones saying "You are not Christian" are either (1) unaware of the obvious implication of their statement (i.e., that others will now think we don't believe in Christ), or (2) they are trying to make that implication, and we have to respond to their argument (e.g., they claim we worship a "different" Jesus than the one in the New Testament, etc...).
Vance Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Christian trinity: One god, three personages, none are god, all are distinct, only God togetherSorry, but yours isn't the description of the Christian trinity that I have seen.You know the part that says, "Each person is God, whole and entire. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin".Yup. Sounds like three Gods. Mormon Christian trinity: Three gods, three personages, all are distinct, all have the same goal (or two gods, depending on how you count the Holy Ghost), all are god, individuallyAlmost.Three Gods, three separate and distinct personages, all are distinct, all have the same goal, all are united. And the three are the Eternal God.
Zeta-Flux Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Over twenty or so centuries, however, the term "christian" has taken on new meanings, and particulalry, the idea of "mainstream christianity" has become almost a subset of christianity itself; this is the terminology that I am referencing in my questioning the LDS need to be embraced by the mainstream christian community.Unlike "Christianity" the term "mainstream Christianity" has no dictionary definition. Further, I would guess that there is no one definition people would give (unlike "Christianity"). If you mean "Protestant" then we would have no issue with you saying "You are not Protestant Christians". Just as long as you are clear, and don't misrepresent our beliefs, we won't argue with you.
Zeta-Flux Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 Actually, we weren't allowed to view all of them. Many were deleted or blocked from the blog, including Blake Ostler's reply to the essay. One can see this most clearly when Witherington responds to Blake's non-existent reply. Only after that is Blake allowed to carry on a conversation with Witherington. Not only are Mormons read out of Christendom, but the so-called "christians" engage in dirty-pool to prevent any real engagement on the issue.If that is true, I find it disgusting.
Bart Burk Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) Christian trinity: One god, three personages, none are god, all are distinct, only God togetherMormon trinity: Three gods, three personages, all are distinct, all have the same goal (or two gods, depending on how you count the Holy Ghost), all are god, individuallyThe Trinity does not say, "The Father is not God, the Son is not God and the Holy Ghost is not God." It says, "The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God." It does claim they are not three Gods, but only One God. The more I think about this the more I believe this is a distinction without a real difference. Perhaps it can be claimed it is unscriptural to call them three Gods because the scriptures don't reference them that way, but it is easier to view them as three Gods. The LDS scriptures are pretty clear when it says Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One Eternal God. Perhaps it is better to just leave it at that than it is to try to go beyond the language of scripture. Edited August 29, 2012 by Bart Burk
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