What Is The New Testament Definition Of "Christian"

[Zakuska]

Why do you insist in being childish, you know Protestants do not believe translations are inspired, the authors are.

Please show where you got your "pneuma" from. That's not the second half of the word.

And what of the portions that where not "Authored" by who they claim to have been Authored by?

(ie Not every Prophet was Gods type-writer)

In fact... take a look at Luke.

Luke 1

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

All of Lukes jots and Tittles are second hand!

Ever play a game of Telephone?

Edited August 8, 2012 by Zakuska

[altersteve]

It is another gospel because the conditions that Joseph Smith put of to the gift are not biblical. It would be very useful to look at Romans 1-5 but for now at elast could you explain to me what you understand by Paul's usage of the term justification?

I've read Romans. All of it. Several times. And I see nothing that contradicts anything that I believe. My beliefs on what "justification" means are explained clearly here.

This is where we differ. I believe the biblical gospel is that men are saved apart from doing any commandments.

So you believe that even a rapist can to go heaven, even if he rapes someone and then murders after he was saved? If so, I find that disturbing.

And that the only people who actually keep the commandments of God - do the good works of Ephesians 2, are people who already have been saved.

So anyone who doesn't believe as you do doesn't really love God or love others as themselves, the two greatest commandments of all, right? Interesting.

In the following quote of your below I believe you have misunderstood the order of Ephesians 2. You might not feel our views are that different but I feel they are as different as can be.

I understand Ephesians 2 just fine. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, or maybe you're just not trying hard enough to understand, but whatever the case may be, you have to remember, once again, that we don't only use the Bible. We have so much other material that clarifies and expands on what we learn from the Bible, so simply saying, "No, you're wrong," isn't convincing to us. Even showing us why we're wrong by quoting some other Bible verse is pointless, because that's only your Protestant interpretation which has nothing to do with our beliefs whatsoever. Your interpretation of Ephesians 2 is just that, your interpretation. And it's an interpretation that we believe is, in the context of what God has told us through other revelations, wrong.

I believe justification by faith alone is the event where Jesus atoning scarifice fully washes someone clean and worthy to enter Gods presence - works have nothing to do with it as Paul repeatidly says.

No, he doesn't repeatedly say that works have nothing to do with it. What he repeatedly says is that works, by themselves, don't save you, and Latter-day Saints completely agree with that. But we, once again, also believe that we cannot be saved without them. And, once again, there is a difference.

Doing good things, being a good person, has everything to do with it. It has everything to do with being a follower of Christ. Being a follower of Christ is something you do. It requires action. It's not just a belief system, it's the gospel -- a gospel of love and compassion and kindness and family and friendship and charity. Paul taught us that charity is more important than faith, and charity requires that one does something. We're told throughout the New Testament, and, indeed, the entire Bible, to give all that we have, to God, to our families, to our fellow human beings -- once again, an action. A verb. If you honestly don't think giving and loving and trying to emulate Jesus Christ (notice: all verbs) have anything to do with our eternal destiny, then you need to take a bit of time and think about what the Savior would say to that.

I would find it very useful to hear your views yet on justification because while it seems central to Paul's gospel I am yet to see any LDS view of what it means.

"Paul's gospel"? It's not Paul's gospel. It's JESUS CHRIST'S gospel.

[djholmess]

I understand Ephesians 2 just fine. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, or maybe you're just not trying hard enough to understand, but whatever the case may be, you have to remember, once again, that we don't only use the Bible. We have so much other material that clarifies and expands on what we learn from the Bible, so simply saying, "No, you're wrong," isn't convincing to us. Even showing us why we're wrong by quoting some other Bible verse is pointless, because that's only your Protestant interpretation which has nothing to do with our beliefs whatsoever. Your interpretation of Ephesians 2 is just that, your interpretation. And it's an interpretation that we believe is, in the context of what God has told us through other revelations, wrong.

So is it impossible to properly understand Ephesians 2 without your later 'revelation'? Surely Paul worte his letter to the Ephesians thinking they could actually learn truth from him. So why can't we sit down and go through Ephesians 2 and follow Pauls words and arguments and 'think his thoughts after him' and come to undertsand what he meant to say - not as 'my' intrepretation or 'your' intrepration but as a intrepration that actually matches what Paul wanted to say. Isn't there one intrepration that Paul wanted his readers to get?

[bluebell]

In the context of testing a prophet; I believe it is a fact of knowledge to know whether JS is a false prophet or not. It is an act of wisdom to know what to do with this fact.

So I may know the JS is a false prophet from testing his words as the Bible teaches to do and then I may pray for wisdom about what to do with this knowledge – ignore the LDS church or seek to better understand why LDS individuals who say they believe the Bible do not see JS as a false prophet. This is how I understand what James it talking about wisdom.

Since we've both explained why we think the other has driven the interpretation of this scripture off into the metaphorical ditch, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I agree scripture study is necessary, it sounds like our differences are in the sufficiency of scripture. I believe that scripture is totally sufficient in and of itself to (or alone if you want to put it that way) to discern the truth about Joseph Smith.

2 Timothy 3:

¹⁶ All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ¹⁷ that the man of God^[b] may be complete, equipped for every good work.

So according to Paul scripture, because of its nature ‘breathed out by God’ is able to make the man of God complete and equipped for every good work. Now I think we would agree that testing a false prophet would be a good work for a man of God to do. Therefore I believe scripture alone is sufficient to test someone who claims to be a prophet.

Now let me be very clear, I guess that you will read the above and think I am making a dichotomy between scripture and the Holy Spirit – I am not. As I have said and demonstrated biblically a number of times in this thread I believe that the words of the Bible are the words of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. So in the Bible God speaks with as much authority as if he is right beside you. Therefore for the man of God who has been regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit when he prayerfully reads the words written by the Holy Spirit he is taught by the Holy Spirit the meaning of the words – meaning which corresponds to the meaning the words had when they were written by the power of the Holy Spirit.

In other words I do not see a distinction between the Bible and revelation from the Holy Spirit. Rather I see the Bible as the Holy Spirits revelation and therefore the Holy Spirit gives revelation through the Bible.

Now of course the Holy Spirit can give revelation outside of the scriptures but the scriptures are the only infallible source of revelation that makes the man of God complete and equipped for every good work. Therefore fallible experiences of what may or may not be revelation outside of the scriptures must fall under the authority of the scripture and be tested. I believe this is especially important because the Bible does not present a very positive picture of man’s heart and will and thus his ability to discern what is true or not.

When Paul taught that to Timothy, the NT didn't even exist yet. He was speaking almost exclusively about OT scriptures since they were the only scriptures. Do you really want to argue that the man of God is complete without the NT?

I completely agree with what Paul was teaching, but i disagree that it means what you believe it means.

I think the Protestant scholar Floyd V. Filson explains my feelings very well on the subject-

"If it will not seem too facetious, I would like to put in a good word for God. It is God and not the Bible who is the central fact for the Christian. When we speak of "the Word of God" we use a phrase which, properly used, may apply to the Bible, but it has a deeper primary meaning. It is God who speaks to man. But he does not do so only through the Bible. He speaks through prophets and apostles. He speaks through specific events. And while his unique message to the Church finds its central record and written expression in the Bible, this very reference to the Bible reminds us that Christ is the Word of God in a living, personal way which surpasses what we have even in this unique book. Even the Bible proves to be the Word of God only when the Holy Spirit working within us attests the truth and divine authority of what the Scripture says. Faith must not give to the aids that God provides the reverence and attention that Belong only to God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Our hope is in God; our life is in Christ; our power is in the Spirit. The Bible speaks to us of the divine center of all life and help and power, but it is not the center. The Christian teaching about the canon must not deify the Scripture."

And Jeff Lindsay, who doesn't speak for the church in any authoritive sense but who captures the essence of our doctrine, also explains well my feelings-

"God the Father is the final authority. We trust and worship Him above all. While we love and cherish His word in the Bible, I believe that no single volume can contain all His revelations and instructions for all time and all situations, especially when that volume has been strongly influenced by human hands in selecting, editing, copying, translating, and typesetting those words. If the Bible were the final authority, we must ask, "Which Bible?" Thus, we rely on revelation from God as the rock upon which His Church is built (as Christ taught in Matt. 16:16-19)."

I love the bible, i have read it more than once and continue to study it daily, but it is not the rock that the Church of Christ is built upon. That, as Christ taught, is revelation from God.

I would be very slow to think this was a mistake on Moses part. Firstly if scripture is ‘God breathed’ then really the mistake must be attributed to God.

This is the worst problem with your interpretation of Timothy. It does force God to be the author of the many mistakes present in the bible (and there are MANY).

But secondly the mistake seems to only be a translational issue. I doubt the Israelites had the scientific classification of animals that we have today – when we say birds we mean a specific type of animal e.g. mammals, reptiles, birds. When Moses said whatever word he used couldn’t the word just have been a generic word used by the Israelites to mean ‘flying animals.’ To say Moses made a mistake is to force our scientific definitions back onto Moses writing thousands of years ago.

If all scripture is God breathed as you believe it, then that means that it didn't matter what Moses did or didn't know about science. The words were being breathed directly out of God into Moses, right?

God knew that a bat wasn't a bird and that no fowl existed which crept on all fours.

And if all scripture is God breathed as you interpret that verse, then translational issues also cannot have any power to produce mistakes. After all, the scriptures have been translated thousands of times. To suggest that transitional mistakes are possible means that you believe exactly the same thing that LDS do about the bible, that the bible is the word of God 'as far as it is translated correctly". Do you believe that?

I took all my quotes from an official LDS source which itself was once a Ensign article published by the leadership of the LDS church for the LDS people, in the article it says,

“Longhand notes of the discourse were made by Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton. This reprint was taken from the Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pages 302–17. That volume notes: “This was not a stenographic report, but a carefully and skillfully prepared one made by these men who were trained in reporting and taking notes.”

Further your former president Hinckley spoke of the King Follet sermon

“The text of that address has become an important doctrinal document in the theology of the Church. It is known as the King Follett Sermon.” (Ensign, Sept. 1994)

Now if you want to show me any evidence that any of the parts of the sermon I quoted from have their authenticity disputed I would be happy to look at it. However when your church is happy to give the sermon to its members and your former president counts it as an important doctrinal document then I have felt justified in examining it to see what JS taught.

Again, you don't understand enough about how our church operates to make the assumptions that you are.

In the church, things like the King Follett sermon are viewed kind of like the apocrypha-that there are many things which are true, but that it is not doctrinally binding on the church because errors may exist. There is profit in studying such things though, as through the Spirit much can be learned.

As for Pres. Hinckley's words, again you don't understand what he was actually saying. He clarifies his words in another address in Nov. 1994-

"On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become!

Our enemies have criticized us for believing in this. Our reply is that this lofty concept in no way diminishes God the Eternal Father. He is the Almighty. He is the Creator and Governor of the universe. He is the greatest of all and will always be so. But just as any earthly father wishes for his sons and daughters every success in life, so I believe our Father in Heaven wishes for his children that they might approach him in stature and stand beside him resplendent in godly strength and wisdom."

The words of Hinckley that you addressed were given in conjunction with the topic of the Nauvoo temple. It is in the temple that LDS believe the doctrine of becoming like our Father in Heaven is most expressed and that is why Hinckley would bring up the Sermon-because of what it says about man's potential under the guidance of God. He was not speaking at all about other parts of the sermon, the parts speaking about God's past.

This is clear when one consideres his words in 1997 about that specific part of the sermon when he was asked-

"about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?"

His answer-

"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But i don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it."

Hopefully this context (which you have already stated is important to know when trying to interpret someone's words) will help you understand a bit better.

[Vance]

Romans 4:5

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

I am aware that the JS translation adds a ‘not’ in front of the ungodly. I have yet to see any evidence at all that this what Paul actually wrote . . .

Well, since you didn't look for evidence, it is no surprise the you didn't find any. With a quick look at NT scripture it is very easy to come to the conclusion that the JS translation provides the CORRECT understanding, in spite of what Paul was attempting to communicate.

From the 1828 dictionary,

ungodly

UNGOD'LY, a.

1. Wicked; impious; neglecting the fear and worship of God, or violating his commands. 1Peter 4.

2. Sinful; contrary to the divine commands; as ungodly deeds. Jude 4.

3. Polluted by wickedness; as an ungodly day.

So, are the ungodly/wicked/unrighteous/sinners justified?

Matt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

. . .

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

. . .

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage.

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Do you still think that the ungodly are justified?

Edited August 8, 2012 by Vance

[Vance]

Actually scripture is exactly what Peter is talking about

¹⁹ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

²⁰ Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

²¹ For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Notice that it was "the prophecy" that came by "holy men of God" that "SPAKE" as "they were moved by the Holy Ghost ", NOT the scripture.

NOTHING there about the written word being written by holy men of God that wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Vance

[Zakuska]

It is another gospel because the conditions that Joseph Smith put of to the gift are not biblical. It would be very useful to look at Romans 1-5 but for now at elast could you explain to me what you understand by Paul's usage of the term justification?

...

This is where we differ. I believe the biblical gospel is that men are saved apart from doing any commandments. And that the only people who actually keep the commandments of God - do the good works of Ephesians 2, are people who already have been saved. In the following quote of your below I believe you have misunderstood the order of Ephesians 2. You might not feel our views are that different but I feel they are as different as can be.

...

I believe justification by faith alone is the event where Jesus atoning scarifice fully washes someone clean and worthy to enter Gods presence - works have nothing to do with it as Paul repeatidly says. I would find it very useful to hear your views yet on justification because while it seems central to Paul's gospel I am yet to see any LDS view of what it means.

Is Obedience to the Gospel necessary for Salvation?

From your post, you seem to think that it is not. However, Paul himself would disagree with you.

Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So in the very act of "believing" (ie having Faith) in Christ is obeying a commandment of God. (Heb 1:6) So you cannot get away from the fact that a "work" and an obedicence to a commandment of God, gets one saved.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Zakuska

[Vance]

Why do you insist in being childish, you know Protestants do not believe translations are inspired, the authors are.

Really? Do you really want to go there?

Please show where you got your "pneuma" from. That's not the second half of the word.

I told you where I got it and its relationship.

Strongs Exhaustive Concordance:

given by inspiration of God.

From theos and a presumed derivative of pneo; divinely breathed in -- given by inspiration of God.

http://greekheb-stro...2_timothy/3.htm

pneo; Does NOT mean "divinely breathed in"!!!!

You just fabricated that.

Even the link you provided disagrees with THAT!!!.

Not sure why you can't see the relationship between "pneuma" and "pneo".

Edited August 8, 2012 by Vance

[bluebell]

Let’s start with Galatians 1:

⁶ I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— ⁷ not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. ⁸ But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. ⁹ As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

I believe Joseph Smith preached and taught another gospel and therefore falls under the curse of the above passage. Whilst the above passage doesn’t distinguish someone as a false prophet – the teachers of this false gospel in Galatia didn’t claim to be prophets, I think being under the curse of Paul would identify someone claiming to be a prophet as false.

In the Galatians Paul goes on to explain the gospel;

Galatians 2:

¹⁵ We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; ¹⁶ yet we know that a person is not justified^[b] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 3:

⁷ Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. ⁸ And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify^[c] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” ⁹ So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

¹⁰ For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” ¹¹ Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”^[d]12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”

I am willing to be corrected but I have not seen anywhere where JS taught that justification was by faith apart from any works. Now he may have taught this at one time but he certainly didn’t teach it consistently – and as Paul said, even if Paul was to come and preach another gospel he would be accursed.

Now obviously Paul teaches what I quoted above time and time again, especially in Romans, but I think Ephesians 2:8-10 is a good summary:

⁸ For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ⁹ not a result of works, so that no one may boast. ¹⁰ For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I want to highlight two things,

1) Being saved through faith is not our own doing, it is a gift not of any works we do.

2) We are saved to do good works, not by doing good works, notice the For at the beginning of verse 10. Good works do not play a part in salvation, the reason people are saved is so that they can then do the good works prepared for them.

LDS do not believe that our works save us.

We believe that we are saved by Faith, after we have repented of our sins, covenanted with Christ to become His sons and daughters through baptism and have been cleansed by the Holy Ghost, and that we remain saved as we continue to repent and strive to remain in that covenant through our desire to be obedient to His commandments.

Our repentance, baptism and obedience are necessary only because Christ has decreed that they are the means for us to access His saving Grace. It is His grace alone which saves though.

Is that a 'different gosepl' in your view?

Now to give a couple of specific examples of Joseph Smith different gospel: I’m also quoting from the BoM because whilst I know you believe it was written by ancient authors I do not – and at the very least we agree that Joseph Smith was responsible for the translation we have today.

2 Nephi 25:23

For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

What does 'all we can do' mean?

Alma 24:11-

And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

And for good measure, let's look at what else the BOM says about grace and salvation-

Ne. 2:4

And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.

2 Ne. 10

24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

Ether 12

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Moroni 6

4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.

2 Ne 31

And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

As Ephesians 2 just said, ‘For by grace you have been saved through faith...not a result of works.’

Of course salvation is not a result of works. But works are a necessary part of being saved.

D&C 89:18-21

And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Isaiah 40:31

but they who wait for the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint

D&C 88

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

Romans 3

²⁸ Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Paul was speaking specifically about the law of moses when he says 'deeds of the law' here and when he speaks about 'the law' in other verses as well.

Edited August 8, 2012 by bluebell

[Vance]

I've read Romans. All of it. Several times. And I see nothing that contradicts anything that I believe. My beliefs on what "justification" means are explained clearly here.

That is because you don't have a pair of 21 Century American Protestant Evangelical blindersglasses to help you.

[altersteve]

So is it impossible to properly understand Ephesians 2 without your later 'revelation'?

Of course not, but it definitely helps.

Surely Paul worte his letter to the Ephesians thinking they could actually learn truth from him.

And since they had a prophet and continuing revelation, I'm sure they did.

So why can't we sit down and go through Ephesians 2 and follow Pauls words and arguments and 'think his thoughts after him' and come to undertsand what he meant to say -

Sure, but I'm always going to do so in the context of LDS doctrine. It's natural for Latter-day Saints to do that.

not as 'my' intrepretation or 'your' intrepration but as a intrepration that actually matches what Paul wanted to say. Isn't there one intrepration that Paul wanted his readers to get?

Of course. But Paul and the Church members back then understood the doctrine of continuing revelation just as we modern Church members understand it. And of course I believe my interpretation is, in fact, the one Paul had in mind for his readers.

[bluebell]

But you see when you say that it seems to me that you are either calling hundreds of thousands of other people who believe they have had a witness of the Holy Ghost liars - when they say their witness is different to yours or you are calling the Holy Ghost a liar for actually telling different people different things are true.

I'm not doing either.

I'm saying that having a witness of the Holy Ghost is not the same as feeling 'happy', for example. It's not just an emotion-it's something much more.

I am well acquainted with the witness of the Holy Ghost – mainly coming through the Bible but also in day to day life. In studying Mormonism over the last month I have had a very strong witness that JS was a false prophet and that he did not know the Biblical God and did not teach the Biblical gospel.

Then you stick with that and move forward accordingly. I can't judge what God has revealed to you and i won't even try.

I know what God has revealed to me though and I know i'm responsible to Him for that knowledge so I will continue in what I know to be true.

Yet you have a witness that the opposite is true.

Yep.

Similarly I am sure we could members of other Mormon denominations who would say they have a witness that their current Prophet is the true prophet and not yours, or Roman Catholics who have a witness that the Roman Church is the one true Church.

Probably.

So if the witness of the Holy Ghost is the ultimate source of authority what is true?

The truth is what you know God has told you (I'm using the general 'you' here).

There is no way for you to judge what anyone else says. I tell you that i've received a witness of the Spirit about my beliefs-well, i could be lying or deceived, right? I could just be messing with you.

The fact is that you can't know what God has or hasn't told me so don't worry about what i claim. You won't be accountable to God for what I claim, so it really shouldn't matter.

The same goes for me. You have told me that you have received a witness that mormonism is wrong-well, you could be lying too, right? You could be deceived. You could just be saying that to make me question my beliefs. There is NO way for me to know, so it just doesn't matter.

Why is your claim to having a witness more genuine than mine?

Why is your's more genuine than mine?

I hope we would agree that the Holy Spirit does not lie so he can’t give contradictory witnesses- either JS was a true prophet or he wasn’t.

So I want to ask you, how do you know that your witness that JS was a true prophet is true and my witness that he was a false prophet isn’t true?

The same way that Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ, revelation.

LIke i said, i can't speak for your experiences but if you want me to speak for mine, then that is my answer regardless of what anyone else claims.

I’m more than happy to explain how I know the Bible is the word of God but I don’t want to tackle too many topics at once – I’ll answer your question onve we have talked about this for a bit if that is ok?

Sounds good.

[djholmess]

Really? Do you really want to go there?

I told you where I got it and its relationship.

pneo; Does NOT mean "divinely breathed in"!!!!

You just fabricated that.

Even the link you provided disagrees with THAT!!!.

Not sure why you can't see the relationship between "pneuma" and "pneo".

My apologies I should have told you to scroll down the Greek of 2 Timothy 3:16 and click on the Greek word for 'God breathed' - the reference from the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance on the right hand side says exactly what I quoted it as saying.

[djholmess]

The truth is what you know God has told you (I'm using the general 'you' here).

There is no way for you to judge what anyone else says. I tell you that i've received a witness of the Spirit about my beliefs-well, i could be lying or deceived, right? I could just be messing with you.

The fact is that you can't know what God has or hasn't told me so don't worry about what i claim. You won't be accountable to God for what I claim, so it really shouldn't matter.

The same goes for me. You have told me that you have received a witness that mormonism is wrong-well, you could be lying too, right? You could be deceived. You could just be saying that to make me question my beliefs. There is NO way for me to know, so it just doesn't matter.

Exactly I do believe one of both of us could be decieved or simply mistaken. That's why i do not rely on my own ability to discern what is and what isn't a witness of the Spirit. And in fact as I have already said I believe Paul clearly indicates that there is another 'yardstick' where yours and others claims of having a revelation can be tested.

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ¹⁷ that the man of God^[b] may be complete, equipped for every good work.

It seems to me like you have no room in your ultimate authority for repoofing or correcting anyone's mistaken of decieved belief in having a witness of the Spirit.

[Vance]

My apologies I should have told you to scroll down the Greek of 2 Timothy 3:16 and click on the Greek word for 'God breathed' - the reference from the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance on the right hand side says exactly what I quoted it as saying.

You mean the Greek word for "God inspired"!

Edited August 8, 2012 by Vance

[Vance]

It seems to me like you have no room in your ultimate authority for repoofing or correcting anyone's mistaken of decieved belief in having a witness of the Spirit.

Well, that just goes to show what you know.

D&C 121:34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

Edited August 8, 2012 by Vance

[Vance]

. . . you know Protestants do not believe translations are inspired, the authors are.

Good, so can you give up your "God breathed" mantra?

[bluebell]

Exactly I do believe one of both of us could be decieved or simply mistaken. That's why i do not rely on my own ability to discern what is and what isn't a witness of the Spirit. And in fact as I have already said I believe Paul clearly indicates that there is another 'yardstick' where yours and others claims of having a revelation can be tested.

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ¹⁷ that the man of God^[b] may be complete, equipped for every good work.

It seems to me like you have no room in your ultimate authority for repoofing or correcting anyone's mistaken of decieved belief in having a witness of the Spirit.

I believe that verse in timothy as well, though, right? I just don't believe that that verse is teaching that scripture is more profitable than the witness of the Spirit.

I very much believe that scripture is profitable for all the things that the verse lists. When something is profitble though, it doesn't mean it's 'the only' or even 'the best' thing.

For example, a person could say that taking drivers ed is profitable for people who want to learn how to drive. If such a person takes it, they will be 'complete' and 'equipped' to operate a motor vehicle. Using that word doesn't mean that person believes it's the only way to learn to drive though, or the only way to be 'complete' or 'equipped' as a driver.

In the end, scripture can only have power to correct or reprove us after the Spirit first witnesses to us that what it is teaching is true and that our beliefs need to be corrected. Scripture has no power without the witness of the Spirit.

I have had those moments when reading my scriptures and they are unforgettable. Not because of what I read, but because of what the Spirit told me about what i read.

Edited August 8, 2012 by bluebell

[djholmess]

Good, so can you give up your "God breathed" mantra?

Why? I believe the scriptures are God breathed and as such are the Church's only infalable rule of faith as written in the origional autographs. Why do you expect me to change my beliefs?

You haven't demonstrated that this is not what the greek says, usually you are very quick to quote strongs reference, why not now so I can see what it says?

[bluebell]

Why? I believe the scriptures are God breathed and as such are the Church's only infalable rule of faith as written in the origional autographs.

What about translations though? Are those 'God breathed'? Since we don't have the originals, that would seem to be a pertinent question.

[djholmess]

What about translations though? Are those 'God breathed'? Since we don't have the originals, that would seem to be a pertinent question.

Nope they are not God breathed, they are translated - usually by a comittie of Greek scholars.

[Vance]

Why? I believe the scriptures are God breathed and as such are the Church's only infalable rule of faith as written in the origional autographs.

The autographs don't exist.

Why do you expect me to change my beliefs?

Because they are wrong?

You haven't demonstrated that this is not what the greek says, usually you are very quick to quote strongs reference, why not now so I can see what it says?

???

Why not, it doesn't agree with what you claim either.

Edited to add,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2315&t=KJV

And just to add clarity,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4154&t=KJV

Edited August 8, 2012 by Vance

[Vance]

Nope they are not God breathed, they are translated - usually by a comittie of Greek scholars.

OK, so the BIBLE scriptures we have are NOT "God breathed"!

Got it!!!

Edited August 8, 2012 by Vance

[bluebell]

Nope they are not God breathed, they are translated - usually by a comittie of Greek scholars.

So, the bible we have today (regardless of which version we use) is NOT God breathed?

[Akboy]

bluebell, you made a few points in your last post I could respond to, but I feel we would probably end up talking in more circles. It has been frustrating at times, but I have enjoyed talking with you. I think it gave me some better insight into some issues.

Plus, I've had another issue on my mind that I would like to start a thread about. It's something I think both of our groups should agree on and work together on, at least in theory. I'll start it tomorrow.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Akboy