Populations In Bom -- Others Theory

[CASteinman]

My point is: this is a religious book, miracles abound, fertility and population are also apparently part of the supernatural/miraculous nature of the events.

Maybe. Maybe not. Growth rates that support the Book of Mormon text would not have to be miraculous.

This fairly well nixes any idea of using mathematical population models.

Babbling Nonsense. The growth rate is a required assumption to be used in the mathematical population model. It does not "nix" any idea of using them. That notion is silly. It is like saying binary arithmetic nixes the idea of using computers -- when in fact it is foundational.

Edited July 12, 2012 by CASteinman

[robuchan]

Volgodan: you mentioned the thing about age in Messianic period, but I didn't get to read your response. Can you expound on that?

[CASteinman]

I'm not a statistician, but I'm pretty sure this is sufficient enough for a statistician to reject as being an actual data set of life spans in ancient times.

I do statistics as part of my living and there are serious problems with your conclusion. You are incorrect in what you think on this. I have to go do other things now but essentially there are two problems -- however they both really related to one thing: You imagine things as facts when they are not -- and its not always just about statistics. In this example, you would need more than mere number crunching to come to a conclusion.

Ancient life expectancy was heavily influenced by infant morality. Once you get to be 5 or 20 years old, the life expectancy of ancients is often similar to ours -- sometimes more, sometimes less.

[robuchan]

Babbling Nonsense. The growth rate is a required assumption to be used in the mathematical population model. It does not "nix" any idea of using them. That notion is silly. It is like saying binary arithmetic nixes the idea of using computers -- when in fact it is foundational.

OK, then what do you use in your model for the assumption of how many children a person has that would grow to adulthood long enough to have children.

BOM doesn't mention females, so we don't have the full picture of anyone except Sariah.

Saraiah had 8.

Ishmael's wife had 7, but we don't know the total number.

Mosiah had at least four sons.

Alma had at least three sons.

Do we know the full picture of any other families?

[robuchan]

I do statistics as part of my living and there are serious problems with your conclusion. You are incorrect in what you think on this. I have to go do other things now but essentially there are two problems -- however they both really related to one thing: You imagine things as facts when they are not -- and its not always just about statistics. In this example, you would need more than mere number crunching to come to a conclusion.

Ancient life expectancy was heavily influenced by infant morality. Once you get to be 5 or 20 years old, the life expectancy of ancients is often similar to ours -- sometimes more, sometimes less.

For Romans:

Life expectancy for a 50 year old is 67.

2/19 lived less than 50. So 17 lived to 50.

Of those 17:

11/17 lived to 75

6/17 lived to 85

4/17 lived to 100

2/17 lived to 130

[CASteinman]

OK, then what do you use in your model for the assumption of how many children a person has that would grow to adulthood long enough to have children.

BOM doesn't mention females, so we don't have the full picture of anyone except Sariah.

Saraiah had 8.

Ishmael's wife had 7, but we don't know the total number.

Mosiah had at least four sons.

Alma had at least three sons.

Do we know the full picture of any other families?

As I recall, if I use an assumption of something like 8 or 9 surviving children this is more than sufficient.

[CASteinman]

For Romans:

Life expectancy for a 50 year old is 67.

2/19 lived less than 50. So 17 lived to 50.

Of those 17:

11/17 lived to 75

6/17 lived to 85

4/17 lived to 100

2/17 lived to 130

Almost looks to me like you have the evidence contrary to your own assertions. But I do not know the source of this information. I have to run.

[mledbetter]

I gave it a half hearted effort googling around. Most of what I saw implied lower life expectancy, but I didn't know if the sources were trustworthy or if they were exactly pertinent, so I didn't provide any links. Here's one.

http://www.hist.umn....v/cambridg3.htm

I expect that many people just assume that Rome was more "civilized" than Native American peoples because that's the way Europeans and Americans tend to view the "Indians". However, that is not the case.

Here is a good read about some of the misunderstandings people have about the Native Americans before the Europeans arrived and the founding of America.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html

It's funny, but with facts and references.

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071659/

[Freedom]

I got this from John Welch's book Charting The Book of Mormon, he has a lot of nice tables and summaries.

I took all the men from Chart 26,27,28 Lehi's Lineage, Mosiah's Lineage, and Alma's Lineage

19 men showed calculable birth and death's.

Of these

17/19 lived to 50 or older

11/19 lived to 75 or older

6/19 lived to 85 or older

4/19 lived to 100 or older

I'm not a statistician, but I'm pretty sure this is sufficient enough for a statistician to reject as being an actual data set of life spans in ancient times.

You are also not a reader of scholarly research. Go back, read the links, and adjust your conclusions accordingly.

[robuchan]

You are also not a reader of scholarly research. Go back, read the links, and adjust your conclusions accordingly.

Skimmed through the articles. I plan to go back and read a couple of them more thoroughly. What exactly did you have in mind when you wrote this?

[volgadon]

Volgodan: you mentioned the thing about age in Messianic period, but I didn't get to read your response. Can you expound on that?

As seen in Isaiah 65, the messianic age would be marked by longevity. A peaceful, productive life, uninterupted by wars and disease. The period inaugarated by Jesus the Christ, IE, the Messiah, was concieved by the Nephites as enjoying those same blessings. This concept is important to the narrative, it illustrates the blessed condition of life then. Utopia, there is no better word. Any arguments beyond this don't have a ton of support either way.

[robuchan]

As seen in Isaiah 65, the messianic age would be marked by longevity. A peaceful, productive life, uninterupted by wars and disease. The period inaugarated by Jesus the Christ, IE, the Messiah, was concieved by the Nephites as enjoying those same blessings. This concept is important to the narrative, it illustrates the blessed condition of life then. Utopia, there is no better word. Any arguments beyond this don't have a ton of support either way.

Is this something that you believe can be demonstrated with actual data, or is this a theoretical thing? ie would people's ages actually be extended? I don't follow what you're saying exactly.

[volgadon]

Is this something that you believe can be demonstrated with actual data, or is this a theoretical thing? ie would people's ages actually be extended? I don't follow what you're saying exactly.

As soon as I find any sociological, statistical or anthropological studies done among people living in the messianic age, I'll be sure to post them. Of course there aren't any, that age is still to come for us. It doesn't matter if it happened that way or not, though I think it did. What is important is the concept, it matching ancient expectations. I'm from Israel. Throughtout the Middle-East, people will say of those in good health that they are beloved of God. That being said, I should ask why not. Even today it is not unheard of for people to live well into their hundreds. Quite often, they are deeply religious figures, the leaders of their communities. The ascetic, mystic, miracle-worker and halakhic authority, R. Yitzhak Kaduri was anywhere from 104 to 112 when he passed away six years ago. R. Yosef Thoma Ha-Cohen, mystic, miracle-worker and rabbi of Pekiin, passed away in 1965, at the age of 107. His father, who filled the same role before him, was 115 when he died. The sages of the Caucasian Jews (not to mention Christians and Muslims too), are reknowned for their longevity, 110 was reached by many. It is also not unusual for the Druze Uqqal (wise, enlightened, initiated) to be busily at work in their fields throughout their late 90s. I've personally seen this dozens of times. So, if living conditions are more prosperous, then why wouldn't people live a bit longer?

[zerinus]

There are other verses that are indicative of relative population sizes:

Mosiah 25:

2 Now there were not so many of the children of Nephi, or so many of those who were descendants of Nephi, as there were of the people of Zarahemla, who was a descendant of Mulek, and those who came with him into the wilderness.

3 And there were not so many of the people of Nephi and of the people of Zarahemla as there were of the Lamanites; yea, they were not half so numerous.

This suggests that the Mulekites were more numerous than the people of Nephi, and the Lamanites were more numerous still, or approximately double the population of the Nephites and Mulekites combined. According to BoM chronology printed at the foot of the page, that relates to approximately 120 BC, or 480 years into the landing of Lehi's party on the Americas.

Alma 43:

51 Now, the Lamanites were more numerous, yea, by more than double the number of the Nephites; . . .

This verse relates to the relative sizes of their armies at the time; but we may assume that it is a reflection of their relative population sizes. The word "Nephites" here refers to all those who are "friendly to Nephi," meaning that it includes the Mulekites etc., as per Jacob 1:14. This relates to 74 BC, according to BoM chronology printed in the footnotes. The observation we make is that the relative population sizes of the Nephites and Lamanites has remained generally constant. The Lamanites tend to outnumber the Nephites by the ratio of two to one.

It should be remembered that it was prophesied that the Nephite/Lamanite division should take place. That is what the Lord said to Nephi before they had arrived in the promised land:

1 Nephi 2:

23 For behold, in that day that they [Laman and Lemuel] shall rebel against me, I will curse them even with a sore curse, and they shall have no power over thy seed except they shall rebel against me also.

24 And if it so be that they rebel against me, they shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in the ways of remembrance.

And of course later on Nephi saw in vision how the history of his people would unfold, how the wars and contentions between his seed and the seed of his brethren would continue, and its culmination with the visit of the Savior among them, and their eventual destruction four centuries later (1 Nephi 12). The Lords visit was preceded by great destructions, culminating with these words spoken by the Lord out of heaven, and heard by all the inhabitants:

3 Nephi 10:

5 And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.

6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.

No sign of Gentiles, Jaredites, Mongolians etc. I notice. And of course, when He appeared among them, He again addressed them as the house of Israel:

3 Nephi 20:

25 And behold, ye are the children of the prophets; and ye are of the house of Israel; and ye are of the covenant which the Father made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Indeed, He went even further; He made a clear distinction between them and the Gentiles, and said that the Gentiles should not see Him, whereas they had:

3 Nephi 15:

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

The Gentiles of course are mentioned everywhere, from 1 Nephi all the way down; but always in association with what is going to happen later on, after Book of Mormon saga has ended. They are never mentioned in direct association with the BoM people themselves. If the Gentiles are not important according to the writers of the Book of Mormon, then why are they mentioned at all? If they are important, then why are they not mentioned as part of the the Book of Mormon populations (assuming that they existed), but only in relation to future events?

The argument of the "others" theorists is that the reason whys the "others" among the BoM people are not mentioned by the BoM historians like Mormon and Moroni is that they were focusing on the doctrinal matters, and not the historical details. If that is true, then it appears that the Gentiles are considered important in prophecy, but not important in history. That doesn't make sense. In the Bible the Gentiles are as important in history as they are in prophecy. But in the Book of Mormon (according to the "others" theorists), it appears that the Gentiles are only important in prophecy, but not in history. I can't understand it. Perhaps somebody here can explain.

Bump.

[zerinus]

P.S. I just did a search, and found that the word Gentile(s) is used around 140 times in the Book of Mormon, or in about 112 verses. These are all used in relation to what is going to happen in the future, not in direct connection with the BoM people as their history unfolds in the Book of Mormon. I extracted all 120 verses, which are listed below:

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ. (Title Page.)

And it came to pass after my father had spoken these words he spake unto my brethren concerning the gospel which should be preached among the Jews, and also concerning the dwindling of the Jews in unbelief. And after they had slain the Messiah, who should come, and after he had been slain he should rise from the dead, and should make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost, unto the Gentiles. (1 Nephi 10:11.)

Yea, even my father spake much concerning the Gentiles, and also concerning the house of Israel, that they should be compared like unto an olive-tree, whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon all the face of the earth. (1 Nephi 10:12.)

And after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of the olive-tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in, or come to the knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeemer. (1 Nephi 10:14.)

And he said unto me: These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles. (1 Nephi 13:3.)

And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church. (1 Nephi 13:4.)

And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren. (1 Nephi 13:10.)

And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land. (1 Nephi 13:12.)

And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters. (1 Nephi 13:13.)

And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten. (1 Nephi 13:14.)

And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain. (1 Nephi 13:15.)

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them. (1 Nephi 13:16.)

And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them. (1 Nephi 13:17.)

And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. (1 Nephi 13:19.)

And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles. (1 Nephi 13:23.)

Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God. (1 Nephi 13:25.)

And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. (1 Nephi 13:26.)

And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them. (1 Nephi 13:29.)

Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren. (1 Nephi 13:30.)

Neither will he suffer that the Gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren. (1 Nephi 13:31.)

Neither will the Lord God suffer that the Gentiles shall forever remain in that awful state of blindness, which thou beholdest they are in, because of the plain and most precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, whose formation thou hast seen. (1 Nephi 13:32.)

Wherefore saith the Lamb of God: I will be merciful unto the Gentiles, unto the visiting of the remnant of the house of Israel in great judgment. (1 Nephi 13:33.)

And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb. (1 Nephi 13:34.)

For, behold, saith the Lamb: I will manifest myself unto thy seed, that they shall write many things which I shall minister unto them, which shall be plain and precious; and after thy seed shall be destroyed, and dwindle in unbelief, and also the seed of thy brethren, behold, these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles, by the gift and power of the Lamb. (1 Nephi 13:35.)

And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren. (1 Nephi 13:38.)

And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true. (1 Nephi 13:39.)

And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved. (1 Nephi 13:40.)

And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last. (1 Nephi 13:42.)

AND it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks (1 Nephi 14:1.)

And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish. (1 Nephi 14:5.)

Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God. (1 Nephi 14:6.)

And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. (1 Nephi 14:13.)

And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, and also concerning the Gentiles. (1 Nephi 15:7.)

And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed (1 Nephi 15:13.)

And this is what our father meaneth; and he meaneth that it will not come to pass until after they are scattered by the Gentiles; and he meaneth that it shall come by way of the Gentiles, that the Lord may show his power unto the Gentiles, for the very cause that he shall be rejected of the Jews, or of the house of Israel. (1 Nephi 15:17.)

And he said: It is a light thing that thou shouldst be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel. I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the ends of the earth. (1 Nephi 21:6.)

Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people; and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. (1 Nephi 21:22.)

Nevertheless, after they shall be nursed by the Gentiles, and the Lord has lifted up his hand upon the Gentiles and set them up for a standard, and their children have been carried in their arms, and their daughters have been carried upon their shoulders, behold these things of which are spoken are temporal; for thus are the covenants of the Lord with our fathers; and it meaneth us in the days to come, and also all our brethren who are of the house of Israel. (1 Nephi 22:6.)

And it meaneth that the time cometh that after all the house of Israel have been scattered and confounded, that the Lord God will raise up a mighty nation among the Gentiles, yea, even upon the face of this land; and by them shall our seed be scattered. (1 Nephi 22:7.)

And after our seed is scattered the Lord God will proceed to do a marvelous work among the Gentiles, which shall be of great worth unto our seed; wherefore, it is likened unto their being nourished by the Gentiles and being carried in their arms and upon their shoulders. (1 Nephi 22:8.)

And it shall also be of worth unto the Gentiles; and not only unto the Gentiles but unto all the house of Israel, unto the making known of the covenants of the Father of heaven unto Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. (1 Nephi 22:9.)

And now, these are the words: Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people; and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. (2 Nephi 6:6.)

And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfil his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written these things. (2 Nephi 6:12.)

And it shall come to pass that they shall be gathered in from their long dispersion, from the isles of the sea, and from the four parts of the earth; and the nations of the Gentiles shall be great in the eyes of me, saith God, in carrying them forth to the lands of their inheritance. (2 Nephi 10:8.)

Yea, the kings of the Gentiles shall be nursing fathers unto them, and their queens shall become nursing mothers; wherefore, the promises of the Lord are great unto the Gentiles, for he hath spoken it, and who can dispute (2 Nephi 10:9.)

But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land. (2 Nephi 10:10.)

And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles. (2 Nephi 10:11.)

Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God. (2 Nephi 10:16.)

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, thus saith our God: I will afflict thy seed by the hand of the Gentiles; nevertheless, I will soften the hearts of the Gentiles, that they shall be like unto a father to them; wherefore, the Gentiles shall be blessed and numbered among the house of Israel. (2 Nephi 10:18.)

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious. (2 Nephi 21:10.)

And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God (2 Nephi 26:12.)

After my seed and the seed of my brethren shall have dwindled in unbelief, and shall have been smitten by the Gentiles; yea, after the Lord God shall have camped against them round about, and shall have laid siege against them with a mount, and raised forts against them; and after they shall have been brought down low in the dust, even that they are not, yet the words of the righteous shall be written, and the prayers of the faithful shall be heard, and all those who have dwindled in unbelief shall not be forgotten. (2 Nephi 26:15.)

And it shall come to pass, that those who have dwindled in unbelief shall be smitten by the hand of the Gentiles. (2 Nephi 26:19.)

And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled, because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor. (2 Nephi 26:20.)

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. (2 Nephi 26:33.)

BUT, behold, in the last days, or in the days of the Gentiles—yea, behold all the nations of the Gentiles and also the Jews, both those who shall come upon this land and those who shall be upon other lands, yea, even upon all the lands of the earth, behold, they will be drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations (2 Nephi 27:1.)

Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts. (2 Nephi 28:32.)

And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. (2 Nephi 29:3.)

But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles (2 Nephi 29:4.)

O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. (2 Nephi 29:5.)

AND now behold, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you; for I, Nephi, would not suffer that ye should suppose that ye are more righteous than the Gentiles shall be. For behold, except ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall all likewise perish; and because of the words which have been spoken ye need not suppose that the Gentiles are utterly destroyed. (2 Nephi 30:1.)

For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son, who is the Holy One of Israel. (2 Nephi 30:2.)

And now, I would prophesy somewhat more concerning the Jews and the Gentiles. For after the book of which I have spoken shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many which shall believe the words which are written; and they shall carry them forth unto the remnant of our seed. (2 Nephi 30:3.)

I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation. (2 Nephi 33:9.)

And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching. (3 Nephi 15:22.)

And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost. (3 Nephi 15:23.)

And I command you that ye shall write these sayings after I am gone, that if it so be that my people at Jerusalem, they who have seen me and been with me in my ministry, do not ask the Father in my name, that they may receive a knowledge of you by the Holy Ghost, and also of the other tribes whom they know not of, that these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer. (3 Nephi 16:4.)

And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father. (3 Nephi 16:6.)

Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them. (3 Nephi 16:7.)

But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them (3 Nephi 16:8.)

And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them (3 Nephi 16:9.)

And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them. (3 Nephi 16:10.)

And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel. (3 Nephi 16:12.)

But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:13.)

And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people (3 Nephi 20:15.)

And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles. (3 Nephi 20:20.)

And after that ye were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed—unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all, unto the scattering of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 20:27.)

And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them (3 Nephi 21:2.)

Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity (3 Nephi 21:5.)

For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel (3 Nephi 21:6.)

Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said.) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant. (3 Nephi 21:11.)

And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. (3 Nephi 21:12.)

Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots (3 Nephi 21:14.)

For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left, and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. (3 Nephi 22:3.)

For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles. (3 Nephi 23:2.)

Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you; and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles. (3 Nephi 23:4.)

And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken. (3 Nephi 26:8.)

And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not. (3 Nephi 28:27.)

Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day. (3 Nephi 28:32.)

AND now behold, I say unto you that when the Lord shall see fit, in his wisdom, that these sayings shall come unto the Gentiles according to his word, then ye may know that the covenant which the Father hath made with the children of Israel, concerning their restoration to the lands of their inheritance, is already beginning to be fulfilled. (3 Nephi 29:1.)

HEARKEN, O ye Gentiles, and hear the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, which he hath commanded me that I should speak concerning you, for, behold he commandeth me that I should write, saying (3 Nephi 30:1.)

Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel. (3 Nephi 30:2.)

Therefore I write unto you, Gentiles, and also unto you, house of Israel, when the work shall commence, that ye shall be about to prepare to return to the land of your inheritance (Mormon 3:17.)

And also that a knowledge of these things must come unto the remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles, who the Lord hath said should scatter this people, and this people should be counted as naught among them—therefore I write a small abridgment, daring not to give a full account of the things which I have seen, because of the commandment which I have received, and also that ye might not have too great sorrow because of the wickedness of this people. (Mormon 5:9.)

And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. (Mormon 5:10.)

And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry. (Mormon 5:15.)

And behold, the Lord hath reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land. (Mormon 5:19.)

But behold, it shall come to pass that they shall be driven and scattered by the Gentiles; and after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant which he made unto Abraham and unto all the house of Israel. (Mormon 5:20.)

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways (Mormon 5:22.)

Therefore repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and lay hold upon the gospel of Christ, which shall be set before you, not only in this record but also in the record which shall come unto the Gentiles from the Jews, which record shall come from the Gentiles unto you. (Mormon 7:8.)

And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. (Ether 2:11.)

For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord. (Ether 4:6.)

Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief. (Ether 4:13.)

Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be. (Ether 8:23.)

And it is by faith that my fathers have obtained the promise that these things should come unto their brethren through the Gentiles; therefore the Lord hath commanded me, yea, even Jesus Christ. (Ether 12:22.)

And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them (Ether 12:23.)

Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words. (Ether 12:25.)

Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness. (Ether 12:28.)

Wherefore, I know by this thing which thou hast said, that if the Gentiles have not charity, because of our weakness, that thou wilt prove them, and take away their talent, yea, even that which they have received, and give unto them who shall have more abundantly. (Ether 12:35.)

And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity. (Ether 12:36.)

And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood. (Ether 12:38.)

So it is not as though the BoM writers, compilers, or abridgers are not interested in the Gentiles. On the contrary, they appear to be very much interested in them—but only in the distant future; not in the immediate present. So how do the "others" theorists explain this phenomenon? If the Gentiles are not important to the BoM historians (as they allege), why mention them at all, let alone 140 times in the Book of Mormon? And if, on the other hand, they are important enough to be mentioned some 140 times, why only mention them in the remote future, but not in the immediate present? Any answers to that question?

[Freedom]

So it is not as though the BoM writers, compilers, or abridgers are not interested in the Gentiles. On the contrary, they appear to be very much interested in them—but only in the distant future; not in the immediate present. So how do the "others" theorists explain this phenomenon? If the Gentiles are not important to the BoM historians (as they allege), why mention them at all, let alone 140 times in the Book of Mormon? And if, on the other hand, they are important enough to be mentioned some 140 times, why only mention them in the remote future, but not in the immediate present? Any answers to that question?

Oh you think you are so clever, even if your argument is flawed. In fact, it is a bit of a strawman argument because the fact that you made this point clearly demonstrates you have ignored everything that has been said that clearly explains why your argument is sill flawed

[CASteinman]

I find this pattern of ages and fathering of sons in men's 70's, 80's, 90's to be so far outside the norm expected in Mesoamerica that any effort to do population modeling based on data from this text is unreasonable.

There is no requirement to father (or mother) children beyond 45 years old for the population to meet growth conditions supported by the text.

This whole argument is one big fat red herring.

[robuchan]

There is no requirement to father (or mother) children beyond 45 years old for the population to meet growth conditions supported by the text.

This whole argument is one big fat red herring.

You're having a lot of trouble following the logic, so I suggest you ignore the topic.

The logic is that the facts related to population modeling pulled from the text are outside the norms so frequently, that normal population modeling can not be applied.

--Sariah has 8 children live to adults over 25 year span

--Ishmael's wife has minimum 7 adult children

--Mosiah has four sons, Alma has three sons

--generation spans average 80 years

--men whose birth and death are tracked live to extraordinary ages

[Freedom]

News alert: there are no 'others' in North America today. I looked through all the talks by Pres Monson and, although he references gentiles a few times, he never at any time refers to any group in North America as a gentile. This proves that everybody in North America is either a member of the church or is a direct descendant of one of the 12 tribes.

[Freedom]

You're having a lot of trouble following the logic, so I suggest you ignore the topic.

Uh oh, you are ignoring the science again.

[robuchan]

News alert: there are no 'others' in North America today. I looked through all the talks by Pres Monson and, although he references gentiles a few times, he never at any time refers to any group in North America as a gentile. This proves that everybody in North America is either a member of the church or is a direct descendant of one of the 12 tribes.

You seem to be applying a presentist POV and apparently have no knowledge of ancient Hebrew writing.

[Freedom]

You seem to be applying a presentist POV and apparently have no knowledge of ancient Hebrew writing.

Quite the opposite.

[CASteinman]

You're having a lot of trouble following the logic, so I suggest you ignore the topic.

No, I have not had trouble following the logic. I am disagreeing with it. There is a difference.

I understand that you do not like my replies. That they bug you. But that is also not the same thing as me being unable to follow the logic.

The logic is that the facts related to population modeling pulled from the text are outside the norms so frequently, that normal population modeling can not be applied.

--Sariah has 8 children live to adults over 25 year span

--Ishmael's wife has minimum 7 adult children

--Mosiah has four sons, Alma has three sons

--generation spans average 80 years

--men whose birth and death are tracked live to extraordinary ages

Recognizing that we do not know if they had other children, this is entirely and completely in harmony with a rate of growth that matches the textual evidence in the Book of Mormon with no "others" required.

If you are not able to do this math, it is not my fault.

[robuchan]

As soon as I find any sociological, statistical or anthropological studies done among people living in the messianic age, I'll be sure to post them. Of course there aren't any, that age is still to come for us. It doesn't matter if it happened that way or not, though I think it did. What is important is the concept, it matching ancient expectations. I'm from Israel. Throughtout the Middle-East, people will say of those in good health that they are beloved of God. That being said, I should ask why not. Even today it is not unheard of for people to live well into their hundreds. Quite often, they are deeply religious figures, the leaders of their communities. The ascetic, mystic, miracle-worker and halakhic authority, R. Yitzhak Kaduri was anywhere from 104 to 112 when he passed away six years ago. R. Yosef Thoma Ha-Cohen, mystic, miracle-worker and rabbi of Pekiin, passed away in 1965, at the age of 107. His father, who filled the same role before him, was 115 when he died. The sages of the Caucasian Jews (not to mention Christians and Muslims too), are reknowned for their longevity, 110 was reached by many. It is also not unusual for the Druze Uqqal (wise, enlightened, initiated) to be busily at work in their fields throughout their late 90s. I've personally seen this dozens of times. So, if living conditions are more prosperous, then why wouldn't people live a bit longer?

Thanks. I'm not challenging you on this, just wanted to know where you're coming from.

I think it's reasonable for a believer to believe God has a hand in things like deaths and births. I think it's a very good theory to explain the quirky population related facts I've outlined here.

Unless someone has a way to factor in God's will into the population modeling, I think it's impossible to use for the BOM.