Joseph Smith And Twelve Planets In The Solar System

[mfbukowski]

This entire post is wrong. Just wrong. You obviously have not pondered it enough and prayed about it to find the answer to your question - Even though the answer is reasonably plain. I don't know if you are LDS or just an antagonist or something in between but you are not obeying the rules for knowledge, wisdom and understanding. I have given you half of the answer in my last post (before I read this post):

http://www.mormondia...entry1209123090

I could give you the rest of the answer but it will have so much more significance to you if will invest a few hours into discerning your own mistakes. No, fish tonight ... better find that pole...

Welcome to the board We have been wondering about that one for a while now.

[SamIam]

Welcome to the board We have been wondering about that one for a while now.

Funny - I served my mission in Thailand. I found I was more patient in getting to know the innocent folks of that culture than I may appear to be here on "the board" on occasion.

Edited May 16, 2012 by SamIam

[Cobalt-70]

No paradox there. The Milky Way Galaxy rotates once every 250 Million Years. In our region, I understand, it is going almost a million miles an hour. Is its rotation fast or slow?

That wasn't the paradox. The paradox was that Kolob was among the twelve "fixed stars," governed by the three grand Key stars, but that Kolob was also the "first in government" which seems to have governed the three grand Keys.

[Cobalt-70]

Ah yes, the Great Cobalti has read another mind. Do you have a special turban or something which helps you do that?

Why else do you use the number 12 in scriptural texts, other than the fact that it is a magical number?

[CASteinman]

That wasn't the paradox.

And yet you said that was the paradox. Perhaps you should refer back to your previous post.

Are you now changing what you want to consider to be "Paradox"? (I don't think you understand the word properly. At least it seems that you don't based upon what you think is paradoxical).

Let me know if you want the Paradox to be attached to the speed, as you previously put forward, or if you have abandoned that position and now have an interest in the Organization side of things -- which I have already explained anyway.

Edited May 17, 2012 by CASteinman

[mfbukowski]

Why else do you use the number 12 in scriptural texts, other than the fact that it is a magical number?

So there were actually 42 Apostles, right?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[mfbukowski]

Definition of "paradox": Two doxes.

[mfbukowski]

Funny - I served my mission in Thailand. I found I was more patient in getting to know the innocent folks of that culture than I may appear to be here on "the board" on occasion.

I think we all are still trying to figure out where Cobalt is coming from. All I know is that Cobalt 70 is highly radioactive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt-70

I wouldn't put it in your tacos to spice them up a bit. Just a little too hot for my taste.

The real question is if the number 12 is always "magical", what is the name Cobalt-70 and why would one choose that name?

Gee, do you know where we can find a Kabbalah expert around here?

Edited May 17, 2012 by mfbukowski

[volgadon]

The real question is if the number 12 is always "magical", what is the name Cobalt-70 and why would one choose that name?

Gee, do you know where we can find a Kabbalah expert around here?

I am not a kabbalist nor the son of a kabbalist, but I will state that when cobalt says "magical" he is abusing the term somewhat. Was 12 a significant number? Absolutely. Was it considered to have "magical" properties? Sure, but not everyone did. Also, not all that is mystical or supernatural, "magic."

[Cobalt-70]

And yet you said that was the paradox. Perhaps you should refer back to your previous post.

Are you now changing what you want to consider to be "Paradox"? (I don't think you understand the word properly. At least it seems that you don't based upon what you think is paradoxical).

Let me know if you want the Paradox to be attached to the speed, as you previously put forward, or if you have abandoned that position and now have an interest in the Organization side of things -- which I have already explained anyway.

Before getting all Perry Mason on me, you should re-read the sentence in question in light of what I'm saying. You'll see that the point was that Kolob was among "the twelve inferior 'fixed stars' governed by Obilish, Enish-go-on-dosh, and Kai-e-van-rash." Its speed was not the point. Yes, Kolob was the swiftest of the twelve "fixed stars," but the point is that it was one of the "fixed stars."

[Cobalt-70]

I am not a kabbalist nor the son of a kabbalist, but I will state that when cobalt says "magical" he is abusing the term somewhat. Was 12 a significant number? Absolutely. Was it considered to have "magical" properties? Sure, but not everyone did. Also, not all that is mystical or supernatural, "magic."

I used the term "magical" in the broadest sense of that term. The number 12 and astrology have a long history together. There are, after all, twelve signs of the zodiac and twelve months of the year.

[Ashley]

Hi,

I haven't heard that one before, don't worry about what anti people say, most of the time it's silly.

Kind regards Ashley.

[Cobalt-70]

I think we all are still trying to figure out where Cobalt is coming from. All I know is that Cobalt 70 is highly radioactive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt-70

Condescending ad hominem attacks don't advance the discussion.

[CASteinman]

Before getting all Perry Mason on me, you should re-read the sentence in question in light of what I'm saying. You'll see that the point was that Kolob was among "the twelve inferior 'fixed stars' governed by Obilish, Enish-go-on-dosh, and Kai-e-van-rash." Its speed was not the point. Yes, Kolob was the swiftest of the twelve "fixed stars," but the point is that it was one of the "fixed stars."

Are you sure you actually mean "Paradoxically"? Do you possibly mean "Contradictory"? They are not exactly the same thing and I get the impression you do not think the matters you are discussing are true or valid -- which is what Paradoxically would mean.

Edited May 17, 2012 by CASteinman

[Mariner]

Samlam,

Thank you for your post #22.

I clearly remember my father talking about the "actual" (revealed) number of (12) planets in the solar system when I was a kid, but had pretty much forgotten about it until I saw this thread.

I have copied your post for my archives.

[Cobalt-70]

Are you sure you actually mean "Paradoxically"? Do you possibly mean "Contradictory"? They are not exactly the same thing and I get the impression you do not think the matters you are discussing are true or valid -- which is what Paradoxically would mean.

I would still say it is a paradox, but paradoxes include a contradiction. I'm not one, however, who believes that everything paradoxical or aporetic is "false." There are plenty of paradoxes and other aporias within Mormonism, Christianity in general, and even science. But in this particular case, I think the paradox is simply the result of sloppy myth-making in both the GAEL and Explanation 5 of Facsimile No. 2.

So here's a summary of the paradoxes:

1. The grand Keys Oliblish, Enish-go-on-dosh, and Kai-e-van-rash govern the "twelve fixed stars" (including Kolob) and "all other creations" including Floeese, one of the "twelve moving stars."
   
2. Kolob, despite being governed by the grand Keys, is the "first in government."
   
3. Despite being governed by Enish-go-on-dosh and Kai-e-van-rash, Kolob lends its light, and thus governs the rotations of, Enish-go-on-dosh (the Sun), through the medium of Kai-e-van-rash.
   
4. Enish-go-on-dosh is the Sun, even though the Sun is part of the trinary system Floeese, which is governed by Oliblish, Enish-go-on-dosh, and Kai-e-van-rash.
   

I think this is all so messed up that you can't make any sense out of it. It's really no wonder that Smith never published the GAEL, and he probably should have taken a closer look at the Facsimile 2 explanations before they went out for publication.

[CASteinman]

I would still say it is a paradox, but paradoxes include a contradiction.

Only superficial contradiction. In reality, upon deeper inspection, there is a truth told in paradox.

I think the paradox is simply the result of sloppy myth-making in both the GAEL and Explanation 5 of Facsimile No. 2.

Well, wouldn't it be useful to your theory if the GAEL were a revelatory work from Joseph Smith? I mean, so what if the works of men are imperfect?

So here's a summary of the paradoxes:

I think you are citing different authors. Its still contradiction but its not very interesting the way paradox would be.

[SamIam]

I think Smith was just using the number 12 here because it was a mystical number--the number of tribes, apostles, etc. I don't think it makes sense to apply this parable to planets of this solar system. Yes, maybe Smith might have thought they were inhabited. But this section deals with all the kingdoms of heaven which are said to fill "the immensity of space." This includes the Celestial, Terrestial, and Telestial kingdoms, as well as all the sub-Telestial kingdoms referenced in verses 24 and 32.

This question of the significance of twelve has peaked my interest and so I have been giving it a bit of my research time. I had the generals of perfection in priesthood and in government etc and while I probably will never get around to commenting much on it on the board at this time, as I have to sift through the data and let it gel for a while to ascertain the symbolistic values, it is very apparent that there is a great deal more meaning than I realized. The most important point I was hoping to make at this time is that the nature of thinking that Joseph arbitrarily chose 12 because it was a "mystical" number implies the underlying perception that Joseph was the author of the scriptures he wrote versus he was inspired to write the word of God according to God's instruction. That becomes a fundamental problem in accepting the church as the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. I cannot accept that Joseph was given creative license with the word of the Lord. It is either the Lords or it is not.

However, in just a few hours of time researching 12 in scripture and the common nature of its usages would eliminate any burden anyone had of not realizing that 12 is powerfully significant to God and that Joseph was not being arbitrary in the least but continuing a pattern of consistent inspired application that matches the nuances of its usage in the Bible. There is much more here than meets the eye of the casual beholder.

Edited May 18, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

Samlam,

Thank you for your post #22.

I have copied your post for my archives.

Mariner - thank you for the compliment - that is gracious of you. It is interesting that your father spoke of such things. He must of been a more diligent student than most to of not only possessed insight on these things but to have cared enough to wrap his mind around the implications. It sometimes seems that few are willing to genuinely put the pondering part of the effort into the process.. Thank you again.