Church Toughens Stand Against 'Improper' Proxy Name Submissions

[thesometimesaint]

Saints Alive:

There is probably something offensive in every religion to someone of a different religion.

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

Thomas Jefferson.

[Saints Alive]

Just read some passages in the talmud. I cant even invite my orthodox Jewish friends over for dinner.

[Calm]

I believe people are justifiable in feeling our proxy baptisms can be considered offensive, especially when the proxy baptism is for people who died in the name of their religion or their heritage by people who were supposedly Christian.

I am glad the Church is trying to stop people from baptizing names outside of their direct family history for the time being.

There are a variety of reasons that people are offended by proxy baptism. It is just not they believe that LDS think we are right in this and they are wrong and so of course everyone who is serious about seeking after the Lord will of course want to be baptized so we are only doing what they want....and those who don't want it, well it won't count for them so what should it matter...though this is more than enough for some, but these are the same that are offended by missionary work or even just our belief in having the Priesthood so there is little we can do to make them happy.

There are also the issues that you refer to above of how people see this as diminishing what a person has stood for in their lives, that they were willing to die rather than be baptized and convert to Christianity as well as the issue of the sense of the individual belonging to their community heritage being usurped by another community and even the issue of feeling like someone is trying to 'kidnap' a family member to adopt them for their own.

I can see some Americans being unhappy if some radical Muslims in Iran started celebrating George Washington and Abraham Lincoln as their national heroes. (I am not saying this is what LDS do, just that it can be perceived that way). In an actual example, I've seen a number of Americans, including some LDS, get upset when it's suggested that quite a few of the Founding Fathers were not only not Christians, but some were even atheists.

How do you think a family member would feel if their grandfather had spent all his life working for the equality of the races only to find out that someone was publishing a justification of white (or any other race) supremacy and the oppression of other races under his name to give the work credibility?

I know that it seems like people shouldn't care if a private ceremony is said over a dead relative, but it is not the ceremony but what the ceremony means that matters....and it means different things to different people.

From descriptions I've heard given, some interpret proxy baptism as essentially the same as telling them that a grandfather or grandmother is no longer their relative, that person belongs to another family now, not theirs. And anything having to do with family, even extended family, can be tied up into a lot of emotions. And telling the person that one is not forcing the dead relative to become part of another family, that it is that person's choice is hardly going to make it sound more appealing.

Now LDS do not normally look upon joining our faith as changing one's family, but others do view a change of faith as almost the same thing as a change of family and we can protest all we like that we don't see it that way and that is not what we intend by offering proxy baptism, but if that is their understanding of what belonging to a faith community is, then of course they will continue to see it that way even if they accept we don't.

[thesometimesaint]

If some are bound a determined to take offense, after being told that no offense was intended, then I don't see any resolution that will make them not take offense.

Only a fool takes offense when none is given, and a bigger one when it is.

Brigham Young

[Calm]

There is a difference between taking offense and being disturbed, uncomfortable or unhappy about it. We shouldn't assume that all those who are troubled by the concept of proxy baptism even after explanation fall in the same boat. I think it is wise to be sensitive to minimize negative feelings while realizing that there are those who will take offense no matter how careful one is in avoiding it.

[Pahoran]

From the statement:

"It takes a good deal of deception and manipulation to get an improper submission through the safeguards we have put in place."

And just who is the acknowledged world expert on the "deception and manipulation" required to trick the system? Who has published detailed "how-to" articles on the subject?

Why, Helen Radkey, of course.

Regards,

Pahoran

[blueadept]

With proper understanding, I don't believe that the non-LDS folks should take offense at the intentions of LDS on this issue. That said, I don't believe that LDS should automatically expect living,non-LDS to be happy and comfortable in performing these proxy baptisms since it is not of their beliefs.

IMO, this is not a selling point for non-LDS to convert to Mormonism but for some reason LDS do believe that it is.

[emeliza]

IMO, this is not a selling point for non-LDS to convert to Mormonism but for some reason LDS do believe that it is.

Funny enough, for some people it is a huge "selling point". I went to a different ward last weekend and in RS it came up that 9 out of the 10 of us were converts to the faith in adulthood and out of the 9 converts, 7 of them joined the church in part because of the idea that they would be together in the afterlife and sealed together. It was a huge deal to all of them. Some of them, they had been told by previous pastors that their relatives who didn't know Christ would go to hell (which I don't think is a common belief now) or they were told they would not have families in heaven and wouldn't necessarily be able to find their loved ones there.

For people who believe all will have a chance to know Christ or who believe we will still be together with our loved ones after death....it would not be a selling point.

[LeSellers]

With proper understanding, I don't believe that the non-LDS folks should take offense at the intentions of LDS on this issue. That said, I don't believe that LDS should automatically expect living,non-LDS to be happy and comfortable in performing these proxy baptisms since it is not of their beliefs.

IMO, this is not a selling point for non-LDS to convert to Mormonism but for some reason LDS do believe that it is.

It certainly beats the "they all go to hell" approach that most Christians (Catholic or others) believe to be the case if they're not baptized into (or whatever other ritual or pledge may apply) the church or tradition of the opiner. Don't Catholics still believe that only the Roman Church offers the sacraments that lead to salvation? I don't remember the statement precisely, but it runs something like this: "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church." Even if you don't claim, explicitly, that we are all going to hell, it's strongly implied in that sentence, at least as far as I can discern.

My mother, as a young woman, had a Catholic friend who lost an unbaptized child. When she heard of baptisms for and redemption of the dead, she cried in her bereavement, sobbing that she wished she could believe it. Her ingrained Catholicism blocked her desire to accept this truth.

This story, oft-repeated in our family, weighs heavily in my mind as a counter to such arguments as you pose here: when people who believe that God would offer salvation to all on an equal footing hear of baptism for the dead, it can ring true in their ears. Or so I've experienced.

Lehi

[blueadept]

: "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church." Even if you don't claim, explicitly, that we are all going to hell, it's strongly implied in that sentence, at least as far as I can discern.

If you are going to take the words of the EXTREMISTS of the faith, I can't help you there. The proper understanding is that while the only known way in Catholic theology for someone to be saved is through a recognized baptism, I tend to stress that we do let God be God and pass judgement as He seems fit for the knowledge that a person tried to live their life. IOW, I don't believe most LDS are going to hell. Of course I might have a difference in opinion in regards to my LDS wife since I'm honoring marriage covents that she is not but that's another issue.

My mother, as a young woman, had a Catholic friend who lost an unbaptized child. When she heard of baptisms for and redemption of the dead, she cried in her bereavement, sobbing that she wished she could believe it. Her ingrained Catholicism blocked her desire to accept this truth.

It sounds like she believes in limbo which is NOT dogmatic for Catholics to believe in. Personally, I don't believe in limbo since I prefer to believe in a loving God in regards to those that die (especially children) before they get a chance to be baptised.

This story, oft-repeated in our family, weighs heavily in my mind as a counter to such arguments as you pose here: when people who believe that God would offer salvation to all on an equal footing hear of baptism for the dead, it can ring true in their ears. Or so I've experienced.

Lehi

In my particular Catholic family, I don't believe we would have the same issue.

[LeSellers]

"There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church." Even if you don't claim, explicitly, that we are all going to hell, it's strongly implied in that sentence, at least as far as I can discern.

It turns out to be somewhat "worse" and a bit "better" than I remembered.

Lumen gentium #16 says: "For they who without their own fault do not know of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain eternal salvation." John Paul II in his Encyclical on the Missions in #10 says the same [underline added]: "For such people [those who do not formally enter the Church, as in LG 16] salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church." We underline the word "formally" to indicated that there may be something less than formal membership, which yet suffices for salvation. A similar thought is found in LG #14 which says "they are fully incorporated" who accept all its organization. . . . ." We will show presently that there can be a lesser, or substantial membership, which suffices for salvation.

NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH

It seems that, as long as I live a moral life, I am an informal, or "lesser" or "substantial", Catholic, like it or not. At least if I desire salvation. At least we Saints don't claim to do anything more than offer membership into God's kingdom.

Now, should I be offended? I refuse to give Pope Benedict that much power over me.

Would that all those who object to our practice could be similarly steadfast in their belief that our church has no power to effect anything we claim to do, even though we don't claim to make any change in anyone who does not desire that change in the first place.

Lehi

[blueadept]

I've interpreted Lumen Gentium in the spirit that there may be other ways for salvation instead of just formal membership in the RCC. If you want to interpret what Pope Benedict is saying that is that others will have a 'lesser membership' in the mystical body of Christ in the next life, you need to put on your Catholic ears.......lol. That's not the proper understanding.

[blueadept]

Funny enough, for some people it is a huge "selling point". I went to a different ward last weekend and in RS it came up that 9 out of the 10 of us were converts to the faith in adulthood and out of the 9 converts, 7 of them joined the church in part because of the idea that they would be together in the afterlife and sealed together. It was a huge deal to all of them. Some of them, they had been told by previous pastors that their relatives who didn't know Christ would go to hell (which I don't think is a common belief now) or they were told they would not have families in heaven and wouldn't necessarily be able to find their loved ones there.

For people who believe all will have a chance to know Christ or who believe we will still be together with our loved ones after death....it would not be a selling point.

I can't help it that some drink the Kool-Aid without having a proper understanding of their Catholic heritage...

[LeSellers]

A few quotes from

The Book of Salvation

APOSTOLIC DIGEST: BOOK II: The BOOK OF SALVATION

CHAPTER ONE

THERE IS NO SALVATION

OUTSIDE THE ONE TRUE CHURCH

that may shed light on the parallel between LDS baptisms for the dead and the Catholic Church's stance on "No salvation outside the [Catholic] Church":

The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman: unique, the Chair founded on Peter. Outside her fold is to be found neither the true faith nor eternal salvation, for it is impossible to have God for a Father if one does not have the Church for a Mother. (Ven. Pope Pius IX)

There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside which there is absolutely no salvation. (IV Lateran Council)

The House of God is but one, and no one can have salvation except in the Church. (St. Cyprian)

Whosoever would be saved, let him come into this House. Let no one talk himself out of it; let no one deceive himself: outside this House, that is, outside the Church, no one is saved. (Origen)

It is a sin to believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church! (Ven. Pope Pius IX)

If any man does not enter the Church, or if any man departs from it, he is far from the hope of life and salvation. (Pope Pius XI)

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes. (St. Louis Marie de Montfort)

Where is the road which leads us to Jesus Christ? It is the Church. It is our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, the absolute necessity we are under to have recourse to this Church in order to work out our eternal salvation. (Pope St. Pius X)

There is but one plain known road. When you wander from this, you are lost. You must be altogether within the House of God, within the walls of salvation, to be sound and safe from injury. If you wander and walk abroad ever so little, if you carelessly thrust hand or foot out of the Ship, you shall be thrust forth: the door is shut, the ocean roars, you are undone. (St. Edmund Campion)

Anyone who is out of the Ship is walking a path not to Heaven, but to Hell. He is hurrying to the torment of eternal death! (St. Fulgentius)

There is only one Catholic Church; this we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins. For at the time of the Deluge there existed only one Ark, the figure of the one Church. And all things outside this Ark perished. (Pope Boniface VIII)

It must be held as a matter of faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only Ark of Salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the Flood. (Ven. Pope Pius IX)

I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved. (Pope Sylvester II)

O glorious St. Peter, obtain for us a sincere loyalty to our Holy Mother the Church; grant that we may ever remain most closely and sincerely united to the Roman Pontiff who is the heir of thy faith and authority: the one, true, visible head of the Catholic Church, that mystical Ark outside which there is no salvation. (Pope Benedict XV)

Now, it seems that, popes and saints have all claimed that outside the Roman Catholic Church, there is no salvation. I, as a reasonably moral man, one trying to serve Christ, am a lesser member of that church*, so I may be saved, but my membership is not with my consent, nor, until a few moments ago, knowledge.

* See my earlier post.

Yet I (and as far as I can tell, no other Saint) harbor no ill-feelings towards the Catholic Church for making me a member, willy-nilly, partly, at least, because I believe they, as sons of God, do it out of love and respect for me, as another son of God.

Taking offense, however "justified" it might seem, is a useless choice, one a person makes foolishly. It gives the "offender" great power over the offended, and it wastes energy and spirituality, neither of which is in even sufficient supply in the most spiritual of people, let alone in the rest of us.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

you need to put on your Catholic ears.......lol. That's not the proper understanding.

That's all we Saints are asking: that our critics "put on their 'Mormon' ears" to understand properly.

It seems there are people who not only have no "Mormon ears", but who, with an offer to tune their own, refuse to acknowledge that there are any "Mormon ears" in the first place.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

If you want to interpret what Pope Benedict is saying that is that others will have a 'lesser membership' in the mystical body of Christ in the next life, you need to put on your Catholic ears.......lol. That's not the proper understanding.

To be fair, it was not I who interpreted Benedict's words, it was Fr. Most. I merely reported his take on the matter.

So, now that we've established that this is not the proper understanding, what, pray tell, is the correct way to read these words?

Lehi

[blueadept]

A few quotes from

The Book of Salvation

APOSTOLIC DIGEST: BOOK II: The BOOK OF SALVATION

CHAPTER ONE

THERE IS NO SALVATION

OUTSIDE THE ONE TRUE CHURCH

that may shed light on the parallel between LDS baptisms for the dead and the Catholic Church's stance on "No salvation outside the [Catholic] Church":

The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman: unique, the Chair founded on Peter. Outside her fold is to be found neither the true faith nor eternal salvation, for it is impossible to have God for a Father if one does not have the Church for a Mother. (Ven. Pope Pius IX)

There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside which there is absolutely no salvation. (IV Lateran Council)

The House of God is but one, and no one can have salvation except in the Church. (St. Cyprian)

Whosoever would be saved, let him come into this House. Let no one talk himself out of it; let no one deceive himself: outside this House, that is, outside the Church, no one is saved. (Origen)

It is a sin to believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church! (Ven. Pope Pius IX)

If any man does not enter the Church, or if any man departs from it, he is far from the hope of life and salvation. (Pope Pius XI)

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes. (St. Louis Marie de Montfort)

Where is the road which leads us to Jesus Christ? It is the Church. It is our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, the absolute necessity we are under to have recourse to this Church in order to work out our eternal salvation. (Pope St. Pius X)

There is but one plain known road. When you wander from this, you are lost. You must be altogether within the House of God, within the walls of salvation, to be sound and safe from injury. If you wander and walk abroad ever so little, if you carelessly thrust hand or foot out of the Ship, you shall be thrust forth: the door is shut, the ocean roars, you are undone. (St. Edmund Campion)

Anyone who is out of the Ship is walking a path not to Heaven, but to Hell. He is hurrying to the torment of eternal death! (St. Fulgentius)

There is only one Catholic Church; this we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins. For at the time of the Deluge there existed only one Ark, the figure of the one Church. And all things outside this Ark perished. (Pope Boniface VIII)

It must be held as a matter of faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only Ark of Salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the Flood. (Ven. Pope Pius IX)

I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved. (Pope Sylvester II)

O glorious St. Peter, obtain for us a sincere loyalty to our Holy Mother the Church; grant that we may ever remain most closely and sincerely united to the Roman Pontiff who is the heir of thy faith and authority: the one, true, visible head of the Catholic Church, that mystical Ark outside which there is no salvation. (Pope Benedict XV)

Now, it seems that, popes and saints have all claimed that outside the Roman Catholic Church, there is no salvation. I, as a reasonably moral man, one trying to serve Christ, am a lesser member of that church*, so I may be saved, but my membership is not with my consent, nor, until a few moments ago, knowledge.

* See my earlier post.

Yet I (and as far as I can tell, no other Saint) harbor no ill-feelings towards the Catholic Church for making me a member, willy-nilly, partly, at least, because I believe they, as sons of God, do it out of love and respect for me, as another son of God.

Taking offense, however "justified" it might seem, is a useless choice, one a person makes foolishly. It gives the "offender" great power over the offended, and it wastes energy and spirituality, neither of which is in even sufficient supply in the most spiritual of people, let alone in the rest of us.

Lehi

I don't believe that any of this is coming from Lumen Gentium which IS the dogmatic beliefs of the RCC that Catholics are suppose to follow in regards to this issue, but I may be wrong. If you wish to take quotes from that document for what Catholics REALLY are suppose to believe, that would be a good start. I believe this part "We will show presently that there can be a lesser, or substantial membership, which suffices for salvation" is a personal comment and nothing that is actually given in Lumen Gentium.

[emeliza]

I can't help it that some drink the Kool-Aid without having a proper understanding of their Catholic heritage...

Hey now, none of the people in that RS converted from the Catholic faith. One talked of being Baptist and another Presbyterian. The others didn't comment on a particular faith. Didn't you catch the 'pastor' part? Not priest or bishop, their pastors told them.

[LeSellers]

Didn't you catch the 'pastor' part? Not priest or bishop, their pastors told them.

To give credit where credit may be due (or not), "pastor" is a Catholic term, too.

The Pope is the "Supreme Pastor of the Church, the Supreme Pontiff" to Catholics. "Supreme" implies, at least, that there are others subordinate to him. (BTW, "pontiff" means "bridge builder", a title of the Roman emperors, from whom the Pope's authority descends.)

Lehi

[blueadept]

To be fair, it was not I who interpreted Benedict's words, it was Fr. Most. I merely reported his take on the matter.

So, now that we've established that this is not the proper understanding, what, pray tell, is the correct way to read these words?

Lehi

No fair in making me do my homework ahead of time. Here is the section from Lumen Gentium that would seem to apply

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

[blueadept]

To give credit where credit may be due (or not), "pastor" is a Catholic term, too.

The Pope is the "Supreme Pastor of the Church, the Supreme Pontiff" to Catholics. "Supreme" implies, at least, that there are others subordinate to him. (BTW, "pontiff" means "bridge builder", a title of the Roman emperors, from whom the Pope's authority descends.)

Lehi

This is NOT a good understanding in regards to the Pope. The strength of the RCC lies in the bishops who are the ones that claim the Apostolic Succession. The Pope (the Bishop of Rome) is on an equal level as the rest of the world's bishops whose role (Pope) is to ensure the church is in unity with one another especially in regards to issues for faith and morals. Just like Peter was the recognized leader of the Apostles, he didn't necessarily outrank any of the other Apostles but they stayed unified under him.

[LeSellers]

We have the words, but, unfortunately, I still have no "Catholic ears", so I'm at a loss as to understanding them.

Whazzitmeen?

Lehi

[blueadept]

We have the words, but, unfortunately, I still have no "Catholic ears", so I'm at a loss as to understanding them.

Whazzitmeen?

Lehi

Why are you making me do my homework ahead of time? lol

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.(salvation)

IOW, the RCC recognizes that there may be other ways to salvation than just by being baptised in the RCC (or in other faiths whom we recognize their baptisms). We will let God be God.

[LeSellers]

This is NOT a good understanding in regards to the Pope. The strength of the RCC lies in the bishops who are the ones that claim the Apostolic Succession. The Pope (the Bishop of Rome) is on an equal level as the rest of the world's bishops whose role is to ensure the church is in unity with one another especially in regards to issues for faith and morals. Just like Peter was the recognized leader of the Apostles, he didn't necessarily outrank any of the other Apostles but they stayed unified under him.

The quote ("The Supreme Pastor of the Church, the Supreme Pontiff") was taken from the "Preliminary Note of Explanation" (Nota explicativa praevia). Part four of that note (integral to the "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church", the Lumen Gentium) says:

As Supreme Pastor of the Church, the Supreme Pontiff can always exercise his power at will, as his very office demands. Though it is always in existence, the College is not as a result permanently engaged in strictly collegial activity; the Church's Tradition makes this clear. In other words, the College is not always fully active [in actu pleno]; rather, it acts as a college in the strict sense only from time to time and only with the consent of its head. The phrase 'with the consent of its head' is used to avoid the idea of dependence on some kind of outsider; the term "consent" suggests rather communion between the head and the members, and implies the need for an act which belongs properly to the competence of the head. This is explicitly affirmed in n. 22, 12 and is explained at the end of that section. The word "only" takes in all cases. It is evident from this that the norms approved by the supreme authority must always be observed. Cf. Modus 84 It is clear throughout that it is a question of the bishops acting in conjunction with their head, never of the bishops acting independently of the Pope. In the latter instance, without the action of the head, the bishops are not able to act as a College: this is clear from the concept of "College." This hierarchical communion of all the bishops with the Supreme Pontiff is certainly firmly established in Tradition."

I don't want to get into a Catholic dogma duel wiht you or anyone else. My point was to demonstrate that there is a parallel of sorts between our baptizing for the dead, and your "substantial" or lesser" or "informal" membership. The parallel is not absolute, but it is there.

Moreover, could you see that there is some basis (at least as much as exists with regards to the LDS proxy baptism controversy) for someone to take offense, even though no offense is intended, at the statement that we outside your church still have to be members of the Catholic Church, although lesser, to receive salvation, because "outside the church, there is no salvation"?

Finally, while I'm not disputing that you have the right to believe the official Lumen Gentium is the only thing Catholics must believe, it is obvious that many Catholics believe far more than that, including, as you mentioned earlier, Limbo. So, if anyone can hold us Saints to the "Mormons believe X" standard, the same applies to Catholics, however unfairly.

I once read a book, The Faith of Millions, with an imprimatur. When I quoted it, saying "Catholics believe ...", I was promptly told that Catholics do not believe whatever it was. Fine. I have tried to live by that lesson: never tell anyone else what he believes. Nonetheless, it seems odd that the Lumen Gentium #14 says, explicitly that "they are fully incorporated who accept all [the church's] organization" and that #16 says we are not formally members, and that a Catholic theologian says this means we are lesser members, that we are not, indeed, members, or whatever standing, and that, irrespective of all of that, that all who recieve salvation must do so at the hands of the Catholic Church.

'Tis very confusing I aver.

And none of this mentions that fact that, to determine doctrine, the Catholic Church relies on councils, not revelation, as was done in ancient times, as, for instance, Peter and the dream of the unclean animals, or John, on Patmos. But then, Peter was not a theologian, he was just a prophet and an Apostle.

Lehi

[blueadept]

The quote ("The Supreme Pastor of the Church, the Supreme Pontiff") was taken from the "Preliminary Note of Explanation" (Nota explicativa praevia). Part four of that note (integral to the "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church", the Lumen Gentium) says:

In your quote, you seem to emphasize certain parts in regards to "The Supreme Pastor of the Church" and I would have emphasized other parts of that statement in regards to the role of the "College" and how it is to work together. I respect your interpretation even if it is wrong.

I don't want to get into a Catholic dogma duel wiht you or anyone else. My point was to demonstrate that there is a parallel of sorts between our baptizing for the dead, and your "substantial" or lesser" or "informal" membership.

IMO, it's your misinterpretation of what is meant by lesser membership. Think along the lines like you preach that there is some truth in other faiths but you have the full truth. There's no desire to denigrate what others have.

Moreover, could you see that there is some basis (at least as much as exists with regards to the LDS proxy baptism controversy) for someone to take offense, even though no offense is intended, at the statement that we outside your church still have to be members of the Catholic Church, although lesser, to receive salvation, because "outside the church, there is no salvation"?

If we all are 'members of the body of Christ' with Christ as the head, I'm failing to see the comparison. Of course, LDS do believe in the different levels of heaven so I get why you believe this to be the case in other faiths.

Both the LDS and RCC claim to have the Apostolic authority so both faiths have this ecumenical desire to belong to have "One Shepherd, with One Flock" mentality.

I believe that I've debunked the thought that the dogmatic beliefs of the Catholic Church is that is no salvation outside of it. I'm not aware of any document prior to Lumen Gentium that says that is the case. Only personal opinions even if they were said by previous Popes.

Finally, while I'm not disputing that you have the right to believe the official Lumen Gentium is the only thing Catholics must believe, it is obvious that many Catholics believe far more than that, including, as you mentioned earlier, Limbo. So, if anyone can hold us Saints to the "Mormons believe X" standard, the same applies to Catholics, however unfairly.

We do have our own free will in regards to what we accept and follow. The church tends to wait for A LONG TIME before making an official dogmatic proclamation. IMHO, Catholics being judgemental in regards to other faiths was reaching an epidemic proportion and needed to be addressed at Vatican II. Thus, the reason it's dogmatic.

I once read a book, The Faith of Millions, with an imprimatur. When I quoted it, saying "Catholics believe ...", I was promptly told that Catholics do not believe whatever it was. Fine. I have tried to live by that lesson: never tell anyone else what he believes.

A good rule to live by...

Nonetheless, it seems odd that the Lumen Gentium #14 says, explicitly that "they are fully incorporated who accept all [the church's] organization" and that #16 says we are not formally members, and that a Catholic theologian says this means we are lesser members, that we are not, indeed, members, or whatever standing, and that, irrespective of all of that, that all who recieve salvation must do so at the hands of the Catholic Church.

'Tis very confusing I aver.

I don't question why I'm taking the class. It IS confusing at times. I'm just glad that I can listen to the intention of the priest and NOT just the words on the paper.

And none of this mentions that fact that, to determine doctrine, the Catholic Church relies on councils, not revelation, as was done in ancient times,

We believe that the Holy Spirit guided these councils. What's interesting to study is what the councils intentions were when they started versus the results of the documents once finished. I would say they were worlds apart.

In regards to believing that we need councils, "Humanae-Vitae" was not produced from a council but still definitely dogmatic and the reason for all the contraceptive issues in recent weeks.