zerinus Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Double post. Edited January 13, 2012 by zerinus 1
Mark Beesley Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 It must be horribly frustrating for someone engaged in trying to disrupt the growth of the Church to watch as the Church continues to grow and gain acceptance by the very people its detractors are trying to "inform." It's really tough to stop the momentum of a gigantic boulder rolling down a mountain.<sigh>
Rob Bowman Posted January 13, 2012 Author Posted January 13, 2012 Bernard,Selek's accusation against me of "egregious falsehoods" was an accusation that IRR publishes egregious falsehoods about Mormonism on our site. Your supposed example is not relevant to that accusation.The sentence you claim is an egregious falsehood is not one at all. I wrote that sentence, and the fact is that our intention in posting the material is not to mock Mormons or their practices. You may take exception to our posting it, but you cannot plausibly argue that my statement as to our intentions is false. In fact, your criticism didn't even really engage that issue. Thus, you have not demonstrated a falsehood, egregious or otherwise, in something I wrote or in something on IRR's website.There is over 300 pages of material in my Gospel Principles Scripture Study Guide. I challenge you and everyone else here to read through it and honestly assess whether the study guide is fair-minded at least in attempting to describe Mormon beliefs accurately. 1
Rob Bowman Posted January 13, 2012 Author Posted January 13, 2012 Mark,You wrote:It must be horribly frustrating for someone engaged in trying to disrupt the growth of the Church to watch as the Church continues to grow and gain acceptance by the very people its detractors are trying to "inform." It's really tough to stop the momentum of a gigantic boulder rolling down a mountain.<sigh>Nice try, but I am not frustrated, and your characterization of LDS Church growth is devoid of reality. The LDS Church's growth is not particularly remarkable, even if we accept its own official statistics. In a typical recent year, the LDS Church has had a full-time missionary force of 50,000 or more missionaries and added somewhere around 300,000 members to their rolls, including not only converts from outside the LDS religion but also new members from among the children of LDS members. That's not bad, but not at all impressive. Furthermore, a fairly high number of people included in those statistics as members are inactive or have abandoned LDS religion but have not gone through the process of having their names formally removed from the rolls. Indeed, a case can be made that the LDS Church is hemorrhaging members. Retention rates, especially in the Latin American nations where the most dramatic numerical increases are reported, are evidently surprisingly low. 1
Rob Bowman Posted January 13, 2012 Author Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Mark,You wrote:Try not to get squished Rob. Huh? Edited January 13, 2012 by Rob Bowman
altersteve Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 You guys are so hard on Rob, it's unbelievable.I'd like to apologize for their behavior, Rob. The things people have said to you in this thread alone are pretty uncalled for.
LeSellers Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 I'd like to apologize for their behavior, Rob. Good thing you can't actually do it. An apology must come from the person who caused the supposed offense. (If Rob is foolish enough to be offended, that's his issue, not one he can lay at our feet.)I can speak only for myself, but I stand by what i have said on this topic. Mr. Bowman and his "ministry" are an affront to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and his only purpose for being here is to exploit each and every possible controversy, and to put The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the worst possible light (even when he has to, as is more than frequently the case, move the source of light himself).I am with mfb: we need to stop helping him undermine us and the religion we hold dear.The things people have said to you in this thread alone are pretty uncalled for."Uncalled for" is in the eye of the beholder.As in libel law, the truth is proof against a charge of "uncalled for".Are the Temple Ceremonies still on his website? Does he still hold them up for derision? Does he denounce others who mock our beliefs and cherished ordinances?Lehi 4
altersteve Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Good thing you can't actually do it. An apology must come from the person who caused the supposed offense. (If Rob is foolish enough to be offended, that's his issue, not one he can lay at our feet.)I can speak only for myself, but I stand by what i have said on this topic. Mr. Bowman and his "ministry" are an affront to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and his only purpose for being here is to exploit each and every possible controversy, and to put The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the worst possible light (even when he has to, as is more than frequently the case, move the source of light himself).I am with mfb: we need to stop helping him undermine us and the religion we hold dear.I can apologize on behalf of others, whether they actually are sorry or not."Uncalled for" is in the eye of the beholder.As in libel law, the truth is proof against a charge of "uncalled for".Anything that is said that could be offensive is uncalled for. Several potentially offensive things have been said here.Are the Temple Ceremonies still on his website? Does he still hold them up for derision? Does he denounce others who mock our beliefs and cherished ordinances?LehiIt doesn't mean we can't treat him with respect.
LeSellers Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) It doesn't mean we can't treat him with respect.Unmerited respect is destructive to both parties. He who receives it falsely believes himself proven right, and he who gives it is diminished in the eye of those who observe, and his opponent.Civility is all that's merited here (and I give him full credit for being civil, if extremely disrespectful for his own part), but respect is another issue altogether.Lehi Edited January 13, 2012 by LeSellers 1
LeSellers Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 I can apologize on behalf of others, whether they actually are sorry or not.In which case, the apology is vapid.Lehi
altersteve Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Unmerited respect is destructive to both parties. He who receives it falsely believes himself proven right, and he who gives it is diminished in the eye of those who observe, and his opponent.Civility is all that's merited here (and I give him full credit for being civil, if extremely disrespectful for his own part), but respect is another issue altogether.LehiLehiTreating him with respect and actually having respect for him are two different things. I'm saying we should be doing the former, as Christ taught. Remember what He said about treating others how we would like to be treated, whether they deserve it or not? I'm simply trying to follow that commandment.
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