Prophecy And Miracles

[3DOP]

It seems like a lot of non-LDS Christians concede that revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. The Bible is finished, and that's it. Quick! Close the heavens! Nobody needs anything but a Bible. I admit that as a Catholic, I think that "Apostolic revelation" is that by which "continuing revelation" must be judged. But there is no question that although the biblical canon may be closed, Catholics affirm the necessity of continuing revelation.

For whatever it is worth, I am happy to share that along with Mormons, Catholics believe that ALL of the Apostolic gifts continue in the one, true Church. What follows is from a book of devotion. It isn't an apologetic work. It Is about understanding the role of Mary in God's plan of salvation and encourages the Catholic not to underestimate that role.

What is the gift of prophecy? It is a grace of the Holy Ghost by which we know future events and secret things that cannot be known in a natural way. This gift likewise includes the grace of revelations.

...having received the gift of prophecy, the most Blessed Virgin likewise possessed thh grace of revelations in a much more excellent degree than all the other saints. Throughout her life, says Saint Andrew of Crete, she was enlightened by countless divine revelations.

I adjure you to take care not to fall into the sentiments of Luther, Calvin and other sectarians, who seek to snatch from the Church some of its greatest and most signal jewels, by attempting to deprive it of the grace of revelations and the gift of miracles.

It is true that the fundamental revelations of our faith are authorized and ratified by Holy Church; yet it is a mark of faith to treat with respect anything which suggests the shadow of almighty God...Those, who by reason of their office or by order of their superiors must investigate these manifestations, should never rely on their own knowledge or experience, but seeking counsel and careful theological study, they should humbly seek the aid of the Holy Ghost and invoke the Mother of Truth and of the eternal light, so that thus they may fulfill the words of Saint Paul: "Extinguish not the spirit. Despise not prophecies. But prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (bold mine)

All quotes from The Admirable Heart of Mary, St. John Eudes, Loreto Publications (2006), Imprimatur John Cardinal Spellman, Abp. of New York, 5 December, 1947, pp. 251-255.

My aim is always modest. I do not say that I can prove to non-Catholic Christians that what Catholics believe is true. But I say that Catholics believe. We do not now or ever concede that the gift of prophecy, or of miracles, or of tongues, or of any grace or gift spoken of in the New Testament has passed away. According to my understanding, the Heavens are most certainly speaking to our times, and I hope that I may live to see the fulfillment of great and precious promises entrusted to the Catholic Church within the last century.

3DOP

Edited October 20, 2011 by 3DOP

[Log]

We do not now or ever concede that the gift of prophecy, or of miracles, or of tongues, or of any grace or gift spoken of in the New Testament has passed away.

Strangely, your Catholic forefathers did, in fact, concede, and even insist, that those charismatic gifts passed away.

[3DOP]

Strangely, your Catholic forefathers did, in fact, concede, and even insist, that those charismatic gifts passed away.

Log...Hi. Thanks for your contribution. Perhaps I spoke rashly. It sounds like you are more familiar with my Catholic forefathers than I am.

You do concede that St. John Eudes qualifies as a Catholic "forefather"? You are welcome, if you should be so inclined, to produce a reference from a different forefather, who in your opinion, contradicts St. John Eudes.

Edited October 20, 2011 by 3DOP

[Reinforced-Shelf]

"38 ¶And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part."

I hope for many Catholics just like I hope for many Mormons that we will find ourselves on Jesus' side at the judgment and not be one of the poor ones that get told "depart from me, ye that work iniquity for I never knew you"

[Log]

Log...Hi. Thanks for your contribution. Perhaps I spoke rashly. It sounds like you are more familiar with my Catholic forefathers than I am.

You do concede that St. John Eudes qualifies as a Catholic "forefather"? You are welcome, if you should be so inclined, to produce a reference from a different forefather, who in your opinion, contradicts St. John Eudes.

You may peruse at your leisure.

http://maxwellinstit...d=54&chapid=513

An historical overview unsupportive of your position: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=54&chapid=517

Edited October 20, 2011 by Log

[Zakuska]

Strangely, your Catholic forefathers did, in fact, concede, and even insist, that those charismatic gifts passed away.

To be fare to Rory, I think you may be thinking about the Reformation fathers, not the Catholic fathers.

John Wesley...

Although Wesley never emphasized certain gifts such as predictive prophecy or tongues and their interpretation, he did regret their loss to Christians in general. In his sermon, "The More Excellent Way," he writes, "The cause of this [decline of spiritual gifts following Constantine] was not, (as has been vulgarly supposed,) `because there was no more occasion for them,' because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause was, `the love of many,' almost of all Christians, so called, was `waxed cold.' The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other Heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his Church, could hardly `find faith upon earth.' This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church; because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left."

[Log]

To be fare to Rory, I think you may be thinking about the Reformation fathers, not the Catholic fathers.

When you read my sources, links to which were provided immediately prior to your post, which of the reformers did you find me to be thinking of?

Another historical overview, noting again (in passing) that the charismatic gifts were absent from the Catholic church: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=55&chapid=523

Edited October 20, 2011 by Log

[Darth_Bill]

I also think it was Dan Peterson that mentioned, while he was working with the Vatican, that he was told most assuredly that the Pope is not receiving institutional revelation. Is there some source that claims he is? Just curious.

[Mariner]

Reinforced-Shelf,

Sorry for the slight detour, but I just wanted to let you know that I like your screen name and avatar and wonder where you picked up the idea for them.

Thanks.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[David T]

I don't believe revelation ever ended. What was lost was an authoritative and recognized institutional mouthpiece for and in behalf of (and to) the world.

[Zakuska]

When you read my sources, links to which were provided immediately prior to your post, which of the reformers did you find me to be thinking of?

Another historical overview, noting again (in passing) that the charismatic gifts were absent from the Catholic church: http://maxwellinstit...d=55&chapid=523

Yeah... but those come from tainted Mormon/FARMS hacks! </endsarcasm>

I had not read those before I posted and thanks for bringing them to my attention!

[altersteve]

Personal revelation did not come to an end. What came to an end was the rock of revelation, since there were no authorized prophets with the proper priesthood authority to speak for the entire Church. This is why the Church fell.

[LeSellers]

Reinforced-Shelf,

I just wanted to let you know that I like your screen name and avatar and wonder where you picked up the idea for them.

..

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

There's an app a topic for that.

Lehi