elguanteloko Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 Here's another question for Mormons.How are Atheists supposed to investigate whether or not God exists? I ask this because it seems that the standard answer of revelation won't work since atheist, by definition, do not believe in a God and, therefore, do not trust in one, either, making "pray with faith" useless in this case.What do you folks think? 1
zerinus Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 Here's another question for Mormons.How are Atheists supposed to investigate whether or not God exists?They are not supposed to, otherwise they wouldn't be atheists, would they.
elguanteloko Posted September 17, 2011 Author Posted September 17, 2011 Zerinus:Agnostics are Atheists and Atheists aren't being inconsistent if they try and find out if the reasons why theists say God exist work or not. 1
TAO Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) Zerinus:Agnostics are Atheists and Atheists aren't being inconsistent if they try and find out if the reasons why theists say God exist work or not.I talked about a reason in that other thread... sorta =P. Edited September 17, 2011 by TAO
elguanteloko Posted September 17, 2011 Author Posted September 17, 2011 I talked about a reason in that other thread... sorta =P.This is a totally different question concerning Epistemology, TAO. It has nothing to do with your "reason".
TAO Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) This is a totally different question concerning Epistemology, TAO. It has nothing to do with your "reason".Nonetheless, an earlier response in that thread deals with the topic.You don't need to pray to get feelings. That's why we ask people read the BoM, actually... because it leads to feelings too.But actually, I would talk to mfb on this issue... as he used to be an atheist... and he can tell you why he changed his mind... though it may not be an answer to the question =P.Best Wishes,-TAO Edited September 17, 2011 by TAO
HeatherAnn Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 Agnostics are Atheists and Atheists aren't being inconsistent if they try and find out if the reasons why theists say God exist work or not. Ask them to define God in their own terms. If you get a defintion, please let me know. In all of the Atheists I've asked, I have yet to get a definition different from how Theists define God.So how much sense does that make? You define something, I borrow your definition & base a belief & organization around denying your definition??? According to my definition of God, there are no Atheists.God is love. Love, which we all actively believe in & pursue... is striving for what is best, through trial & error.Since we are not all-knowing, the closest we get to God (or the best of all possibilities) is through both reason & intuition (subconscious, spirit etc.).
elguanteloko Posted September 17, 2011 Author Posted September 17, 2011 TAOI don't understand how feelings that there is a God is relevant here to the understanding that there is a God. We seek the knowledge that there is a God, not that we feel like there is a God.
CV75 Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 How are Atheists supposed to investigate whether or not God exists?The same way anyone else would, I suppose. Given enough life experience, they might become inclined to experiment with faith.
TAO Posted September 17, 2011 Posted September 17, 2011 (edited) TAOI don't understand how feelings that there is a God is relevant here to the understanding that there is a God. We seek the knowledge that there is a God, not that we feel like there is a God.Well then it is impossible to know anything (nihilsim/logical skepticism).You won't get knowledge unless you ask for it in the way you are supposed to (you can't see without opening your eyes). So the best you can do, is look for a feeling, sorta. =PBest Wishes,-TAO Edited September 17, 2011 by TAO
Vance Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 If all else fails, they can wait until they meet Him face to face.
elguanteloko Posted September 18, 2011 Author Posted September 18, 2011 The same way anyone else would, I suppose. Given enough life experience, they might become inclined to experiment with faith.Would you please be a little bit more specific?
Franktalk Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 Just a couple of thoughts.God does respond to request from all of us. But there are many different levels of expectation. If someone has suppressed their own spirit and embraced the world then they have pre-judged the spirit. God will respect this and let you remain in your fleshly existence. He may of course change events to bring you into tribulation. And in that tribulation you may cry out for God. It seems that tribulation cuts deep into the soul and will awaken a pathway. I think that this is shown by example numerous times in scripture. Now why God places one in a position to seek Him and another He does not is a mystery. But if I were to guess I would guess that God knew each of us before we came to the flesh. In those cases where He knows the spirit of the person and knows that they will respond to a prompting then I think He will do what is required for that person. But His effort brings in many issues. Since it is His effort then the expectations that He has changes. After all when much is given much is expected. For those who remain in their flesh then little is expected.There are many atheist who declare there is no God yet they are very passionate in their arguments. Just how can someone be passionate about something that does not exist? And those who hate God because of some event have faith in God but act in an incorrect emotional way. After all God said He can deal with cold or hot people, it is the lukewarm ones He does not spend time with.So if an atheist has beaten down their spirit just what can be done to awaken it? I think this depends on the individual. And of course we as flesh can not guide but assist. Only when someone has taken the first step can we support that first step. The same is true of the Holy Ghost. Although promptings do happen most communication occurs as support. Or as a witness to what one has already done. Most atheist are worldly and are intelligent which of course is the fast track to pride. That will get them in trouble with God. He will let them simmer in their pride.
elguanteloko Posted September 18, 2011 Author Posted September 18, 2011 Well then it is impossible to know anything (nihilsim/logical skepticism).lol What? How did you go from looking for something more reliable than feelings (because feelings don't explain themselves or why they occur - you have to look outside those feelings) to saying it's impossible to know anything (which would not include, I would imagine, that statement)?
TAO Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 lol What? How did you go from looking for something more reliable than feelings (because feelings don't explain themselves or why they occur - you have to look outside those feelings) to saying it's impossible to know anything (which would not include, I would imagine, that statement)?Because neither do the senses. If you don't trust your feelings, you shouldn't trust your senses either - because you interpret them as feelings as well. They all become a thought, rather than an input when you stick them in that brain of yours.I mentioned on the other thread, the 'brain in the vat'. The idea behind it is you cannot determine truth in any sense or form. The counter to it, is that, if it was true, life would be pointless, and because it is all we have to go by, we might as well trust it. But in using that counter, you must realize that all feelings have an equal chance of being just as valid. It is up to you to determine which ones you trust most. But 'feelings' aren't any better than 'senses' necessarily.
CV75 Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 Would you please be a little bit more specific?Well, looking at it from a developmental perspective, a person begins life with a blank slate and at some point concludes that God exists (or not). Prior to that decision point, an investigation of some kind has been underway. The investigation may be very passive or forced by circumstance, as in asking a believing parent why certain things are as they are and the reply brings God into the equation. Or the investigation may be very proactive an in observing the world around us in all its aspects. The more proactive the investigation becomes, or the broader it becomes, the more inclined one is to experiment with all aspects of observation and relation, including faith in God.Life experiences (rather, how we respond to them) eventually provide ample opportunities for both types of investigation, as well as for reassessing prior conclusions. The result of these investigations (discoveries, conclusions, epiphanies, etc.) constitutes revelation; investigation becomes a revelatory process of one kind or another, and once He is found to exist, some can be attributed to God.Having discovered that God exists, I find it difficult to be motivated to investigate whether He does not exist. So I guess the atheist would have to question his discovery that God does not exist enough to warrant his experimenting with faith.
Eldwynn Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 (edited) There are many atheist who declare there is no God yet they are very passionate in their arguments. Just how can someone be passionate about something that does not exist? You can't really be convinced by this. Really? I mean... Really? God exists because those that doubt his existence (especially those that were raised from a child to worship him) are passionate in their arguments against his existence? Well that settles it, I had better go join the Church of Scientology. After all, it MUST be true if Tom Cruise will jump on Oprah's couch over it. I mean, would you jump on her couch because of your passion of the church? I highly doubt it.This is by far the second silliest thing I have encountered.... well in the past few hours.EDIT: I should have finished reading the thread before saying this was the silliest thing. Edited September 18, 2011 by Eldwynn
Eldwynn Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 (edited) a person begins life with a blank slate... Please start your journey into the 21st century here:http://en.wikipedia....The_Blank_Slate Edited September 18, 2011 by Eldwynn 1
elguanteloko Posted September 18, 2011 Author Posted September 18, 2011 (edited) ... Please start your journey into the 21st century here:http://en.wikipedia....The_Blank_SlateLOL You're awesome. Rep point for that. Edited September 18, 2011 by elguanteloko
elguanteloko Posted September 18, 2011 Author Posted September 18, 2011 TAO:My senses seem pretty reliable and I don't interpret rocks as feelings but as physical objects, I don't know about you. You really have a pretty messed up view of thought, IMHO.About the brain-in-a-vat thought experiment... you need to read more Epistemology if you think this is an argument against "truth".
HeatherAnn Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 Atheists think they realize God does not exist when they are so filled with hate.Who can experience any kind of God (love) when they "call for the ‘Eradication’ of ‘Fundamentalist Christians.’http://www.theblaze.com/stories/american-atheist-leader-calls-for-the-eradication-of-fundamentalist-christians/
elguanteloko Posted September 18, 2011 Author Posted September 18, 2011 (edited) Atheists think they realize God does not exist when they are so filled with hate.Who can experience any kind of God (love) when they "call for the ‘Eradication’ of ‘Fundamentalist Christians.’http://www.theblaze....ist-christians/Please, not these dirty tactics here, give me a freaking break. Go with your poisoning the well to another site. Edited September 18, 2011 by elguanteloko
Franktalk Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 You can't really be convinced by this. Really? I mean... Really? God exists because those that doubt his existence (especially those that were raised from a child to worship him) are passionate in their arguments against his existence? Well that settles it, I had better go join the Church of Scientology. After all, it MUST be true if Tom Cruise will jump on Oprah's couch over it. I mean, would you jump on her couch because of your passion of the church? I highly doubt it.This is by far the second silliest thing I have encountered.... well in the past few hours.EDIT: I should have finished reading the thread before saying this was the silliest thing.Just how many atheist and pagans have you conversed with on the subject of the belief in God? I stand on my experience and my opinions are formed by that experience. In a like manner my faith in God is built on experience with the spirit and my interaction with the Holy Ghost. At least you did not say my opinions were foolishness.The atheist I talked to did not believe in a spirit. They believe that it is a construct of man to help with unknown questions. The biggest being death. The fear that death instills in man can be a powerful agent. One can look at death as a natural conclusion to self aware life which evolved from dust. Of course when the systems which make that life shut down then the life is gone. At least that is the way that some people think. For me the life of a man is not the shell we call the body. For me the life is the spirit. In fact all power comes from the spirit world and is controlled by the being of God. But of course this is foolishness to the man of the world. The atheist has embraced the senses and seeks answers with that limited set of tools.God respects free will.
TAO Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 (edited) TAO:My senses seem pretty reliable and I don't interpret rocks as feelings but as physical objects, I don't know about you. You really have a pretty messed up view of thought, IMHO.About the brain-in-a-vat thought experiment... you need to read more Epistemology if you think this is an argument against "truth".That's because you trust your senses without thought (this isn't all too unreasonable though, keep in mind). As I said, consider the brain in the vat. You cannot prove any of your senses. And yet, you trust them. Thus, I think it is reasonable to conclude that feelings could very well be under the same circumstance.Consider a blind person. Do they have any reason to think a sense of sight exists? Only because other people tell them so. But they will never be able to sense it. Under your logic, they would be justified in assuming seeing does not exist, because they are not able to solidly observe it with their senses.The 'brain in the vat' argument isn't mean to argue against truth, correct. It is meant to show that even the most basic things which we assert as true are based on technicalities most of us accept as individuals. One of those, is the senses; we are vulnerable because we have no way of determining our environment (or whether an environment exists in the first place) without using them. But since our senses come to us in the form of feelings, it thus classifies that anything that are brain produces is of an equal value. However, due to our habit of relying on the senses, we tend to trust and use less the other areas of the brain; we haven't been trained to use them.And yeah.. my ideas tend to be a bit off the 'normal' spectrum. But that's pretty 'normal' for me, so that isn't really a concern XD. And nah... I don't think they are not messed up. I think you just don't like them very much =P. But you are trying to work your way around them =). Logical battles are quite fun, I guess. But they also can be rather pointless. Just make sure this doesn't devolve into one of those XD.Best Wishes,-TAO Edited September 18, 2011 by TAO
Franktalk Posted September 18, 2011 Posted September 18, 2011 Atheists think they realize God does not exist when they are so filled with hate.Who can experience any kind of God (love) when they "call for the ‘Eradication’ of ‘Fundamentalist Christians.’http://www.theblaze....ist-christians/I don't believe the atheist are that much different than any body else. I have met people who declared them self Christian yet they were mean nasty people. And I have met self declared atheist that I would trust with my life. Most self declared atheist are just people who seek an identity. They will say anything to be accepted. Their belief system is broken.If this was true that atheist were mean violent people then they should be over represented in prison populations. I have not found this to be the case. The information that I looked at says that the percentage of beliefs in prison pretty much mirrors the general population as a percentage. Sadly even Mormons. This is not a slam on the Church but it does reflect on the admission process badly.
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