Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) I was corresponding a friend concerning the BoM, she had been re-reading the book but got bogged down with 2 Nephi 3: 7, with the BoM prophecies of the calling of Joseph as a Prophet. But one thing I have noted from the Bible, BoM, D&C and PoGP, all Prophets must begin with their calling which was not witnessed by anyone else. The only exception I have found was Paul’s calling to the ministry. But Paul was not a Prophet except in the general sense.2 Nephi 3: 7Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins. And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers.So I looked up three examples from the Bible, of course there are many more…Joshua 1Jeremiah 1Ezekiel 1So to believe the “words” of any Prophet, we must take them at their “word”; correct? I don't see this as self promotion but as needed information. Does anyone know of any exceptions? Comments? Edited September 12, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee
Questing Beast Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 I thought that "in the mouth of two or more witnesses" was required at some point along the career path of any prophet, in order for him to be validated.There are no exceptions to this that I know of. But there are plenty of examples of self-proclaimed prophets winding up utterly alone with their assertions (e.g. Brian David Mitchell). All the acknowledged prophets have two or more followers during their career, even at the low points. E.g. Elijah, arguably the least followed of the OT prophets - at least during his low points - still had miraculous powers that convinced people. It was hard to ignore fire from heaven, raised children from the dead, and personal prodigies of valor (outrunning horses in torrential rainstorms, etc.). The fakes and failures seem to always diminish rather than grow in repute. That is the giveaway trait. If a prophet continues to gain followers even after his death then it is arguably proof of his truth claims....
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 12, 2011 Author Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) (outrunning horses in torrential rainstorms, etc.). Huh? Never heard of this, can you tell me where this is?BTW from your entire post...didn't Joseph Smith meet and exceed those standards you listed..ie "witnesses"? Edited September 12, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee
LeSellers Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 Huh? Never heard of this, can you tell me where this is?45 And it came to pass in the mean while, that the heaven was black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain. And Ahab rode, and went to Jezreel. 46 And the hand of the LORD was on Elijah; and he girded up his loins, and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.Enjoy,Lehi
changed Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) I think the prophet begins their calling long before they are officially called - I mean the apostles are prophets too... some of the 70 - who is to say when the first time is that they speak with God?Last night President Oaks ended with a very powerful testimony that He was one of the people on Earth who had personally witnessed Christ - that it is given to some to know, and others to believe on their words - that he was one of the people who knew, and we could believe his testimony that Jesus is real - he's an apostle, but sure sounded like a prophet last night. Edited September 12, 2011 by changed
Questing Beast Posted September 12, 2011 Posted September 12, 2011 What does "personally witnessed Jesus Christ" mean? This is what I am talking about: I have had at least two people declare to me, directly, that they have SEEN Jesus Christ. I did not ask for elucidation. Because I believe that such "seeing" is always metaphysical; it does not involve the five empirical senses of the body in any sort of lucid, cognitive (as in awake) state. From such an experience/visitation, the recipient returns to "normal" existence, usually by "coming to [himself]", i.e. waking up....
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 What does "personally witnessed Jesus Christ" mean? This is what I am talking about: I have had at least two people declare to me, directly, that they have SEEN Jesus Christ. I did not ask for elucidation. Because I believe that such "seeing" is always metaphysical; it does not involve the five empirical senses of the body in any sort of lucid, cognitive (as in awake) state. From such an experience/visitation, the recipient returns to "normal" existence, usually by "coming to [himself]", i.e. waking up....I think more have seen him than we know. Elder McConkie sure convinced me during his final address. One of the greatest testimonies I have eve heard.
Franktalk Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 What does "personally witnessed Jesus Christ" mean? This is what I am talking about: I have had at least two people declare to me, directly, that they have SEEN Jesus Christ. I did not ask for elucidation. Because I believe that such "seeing" is always metaphysical; it does not involve the five empirical senses of the body in any sort of lucid, cognitive (as in awake) state. From such an experience/visitation, the recipient returns to "normal" existence, usually by "coming to [himself]", i.e. waking up....Although it has not happened to me I believe that Jesus does come in the Spirit (visible) to many people. A manifestation of a spirit body can appear as a real body but typically they stay above the ground. From what I hear from the third world it happens all of the time. I would not be surprised to find out that He has appeared millions of times in the last decade.I had a confrontation with an evil spirit. I asked for Jesus to intervene on my behalf which He did. I never saw Him but His presence was felt none the less. Since that time I have protected myself from those kinds of situations. But of course that is done through Christ as well. Myself I can do nothing. We are as Satan says:Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: Job 4:19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth? Job 4:20 They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish forever without any regarding it.When the powers of evil are released on the earth many will follow that power it is sad to say. They will fail to know that all power comes from God. In time the power of evil will be taken away. But in that short time many will be deceived. The people who walk with the earth as their foundation will stumble, those who walk in the spirit will see evil and reject it.So for me the calling of a prophet is just one of many spiritual encounters that occur all of the time. I am surprised we don't have more prophets now. It would be odd to have just one as the lasts days approach. I know we have four others but they remain out of the public eye.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Although it has not happened to me I believe that Jesus does come in the Spirit (visible) to many people. Why not in corporal form? The Pre-Mortal Christ appeared to the House of Israel (Moses, Joshua and Seventy Elders of Israel), but he is no longer a “Spirit being.Forgot "Brother of Jared". Edited September 13, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee
Questing Beast Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Again, I consider "in the Spirit" to be a metaphysical manifestation. Physicality does not alter this: a glorified being of Jesus' stature would waste a mere mortal, unless that mortal's spirit were strengthened. If Jesus is capable of appearing with his glory masked, then the appearance would bear more of the nature of a mundane appearance, i.e. it would not be a revelation, but rather a visitation with Jesus' true self concealed. Otherwise, the person being visited would be able to protest that s/he can see with the natural eye, "therefore, where is thy glory?" So if Jesus Christ appears AS himself revealed, it must be in glory; and that requires a metaphysical experience, or, one "out of the body" as it were....
Franktalk Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Why not in corporal form? The Pre-Mortal Christ appeared to the House of Israel (Moses, Joshua and Seventy Elders of Israel, but he is no longer a “Spirit being.Our spirit can be taken from this body at any time. I see no difference in the next body. The body may be different but I don't think it changes going in the spirit. You may have to give me some more information about what you mean.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 Our spirit can be taken from this body at any time. I see no difference in the next body. The body may be different but I don't think it changes going in the spirit. You may have to give me some more information about what you mean.Not sure in the eternal realm…When Christ appears his scares are very important, this is one of the ways he will show the Jews who he is…I am not sure of doctrine concerning this, but I believe that now he is always corporeal. He must retain these scares, until his has his enemies under his feet. Can't recall the scripture off hand.
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