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Teaching the Gospel among the Gentiles


Del March

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Unless I'm greatly mistaken, Jesus never taught Gentiles, and He never said they should be taught. He only preached among the Chosen People, the Jews (and among their lost brothers, the Samaritans).

After He died, the Apostles started teaching among the Jews. No Gentile could be baptised unless he had converted to Judaism first.

And then Peter had a vision and a revelation that the Gospel should also be taught to the Gentiles, and that the Gentiles could be baptised without converting to Judaism first.

But wasn't that revelation directly contrary to *everything* God had ever taught ?

God had a chosen people in the Old Testament. Gentiles could be adopted into it, but they had to do certain things in order to do so. In particular, the circumcision was supposed to be an outward sign of the covenant between God and His people.

Then Jesus came and He never taught anything that would revoke this. He revoked a lot of things, but not the concept of the chosen people. He built his new church *inside* the Jew community. He never said it was to be taken outside of it. According to what He said and didn't say, only the Jews were supposed to be taught the new Gospel.

And yet Peter, on the base of a dream and a revelation, turned those centuries-old, God-approved concepts upside down.

Wasn't it heresy ? Wasn't it obvious that Peter was only trying to gain power over more people ?

And yet we all accept the validity of his revelation. We all accept that he indeed had the power to say something that was *completely contrary* to everything that had been taught before. In short : we accept that Peter had the gift of prophecy, and that he could receive revelations from God that contradicted what God Himself had said before through other prophets, even what His Son Himself seemed to have supported.

This was after Jesus's death. Peter was a prophet, and obviously Jesus did *not* say everything that needed to be said.

Why can't people accept now, in our days, that God would call another prophet who would say things that had never been said before, things that might even contradict things that had been taught before ?

If God still needed to send a prophet after the death of His Son, why wouldn't He need to send another prophet in our days ?

Del

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I know, it baffles me when lame people (they shall remain nameless but we know who they are on this site) say there's no need for a prophet or apostles. Everything that needed to be said was said. Pretty lame considering there were prophets on earth for 4000 years before Christ and then a few years after him, well until people killed them all and the Apostacy happened.

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Unless I'm greatly mistaken, Jesus never taught Gentiles, and He never said they should be taught. He only preached among the Chosen People, the Jews (and among their lost brothers, the Samaritans).

That's right. Matthew 15:24 shows this and proves that the other sheep in John 10 were not the Gentiles, but had to be Israelites.

Hmm...so there's this overwhelming need for prophets today.

There always is an overwhelming need as per Amos 3:7 and Ephesians 4:11-14 etc..

Of course...from AD 100-AD 1800 God thought most of the world didn't need prophets.

I think the opposite is true and the world took that long to be prepared.

How many thousands of years before the law of Moses was given? How many thousands of years before those under the law of Moses were sufficiently prepared to receive the gospel? And for Bible only believers, what happens to all those billions who never heard of the law of Moses or the gospel in the millenia preceeding Christ or even up until today?

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If God still needed to send a prophet after the death of His Son, why wouldn't He need to send another prophet in our days

God will use Prophets once again, read up on Revelation...He will send 2 prophets to preach the Gospel. And they will roast alive anybody that gets in their way. One is the prophet Elijah (Sp?) and not sure on the other.

Um, your also wrong on the Peter/Heresy thing...The Vision made it clear that even the Gentiles & All unclean things were okay. Even sent Peter to a Gentiles House to Baptise them etc., Um, if your not too sure on these things I'll post tomorrow w/scripture to support this.

Jesus also visited the Samarian women, Healed a Gentile woman's daugher of Demons and the Centurians Boy. Jesus was impressed with the Faith of these Gentiles in Him, where such faith had not been seen in His neck of the Jewish Woods persay. :P

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If God still needed to send a prophet after the death of His Son, why wouldn't He need to send another prophet in our days

God will use Prophets once again, read up on Revelation...He will send 2 prophets to preach the Gospel. And they will roast alive anybody that gets in their way. One is the prophet Elijah (Sp?) and not sure on the other.

I've heard that saying that one of the two Rev. 12 witness will be Elijah, but what proof do you have? The last one spouting that had extrodinarily week proof, so I'd like to see yours.

Um, your also wrong on the Peter/Heresy thing...The Vision made it clear that even the Gentiles & All unclean things were okay.  Even sent Peter to a Gentiles House to Baptise them etc.,  Um, if your not too sure on these things I'll post tomorrow w/scripture to support this.

Uhm I think DEL was right on the money with her analysis. Perhaps you should read it again.

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Jesus also visited the Samarian women, Healed a Gentile woman's daugher of Demons and the Centurians Boy. Jesus was impressed with the Faith of these Gentiles in Him, where such faith had not been seen in His neck of the Jewish Woods persay.

Sure. But the fact remains that Jesus himself was not sent specifically to them by his own admission in Matthew 15:24.

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Hmm...so there's this overwhelming need for prophets today.  Of course...from AD 100-AD 1800 God thought most of the world didn't need prophets.

I got that right?

No, you didn't get it right.

God prepared His people for thousands of years before sending His Son. Result : they killed Him in 3 years.

God prepared and sent special Apostles to the Gentiles. Result : they killed them all in a few decades, and by so doing they supported the Jews in killing the Son of God.

Obviously, the world wasn't willing nor ready to accept the Gospel. It only makes sense that God would prepare it before He sent another prophet.

It also makes sense that God would punish the Gentiles for killing the Apostles, just like the Israel of Old regularly got punished for killing their own prophets, and just like the Jews were severely punished for killing the Son of God.

Edit : to whom a lot is given, a lot is expected from. God gave His Only Begotten Son, the world rejected and crucified Him. The punishment and consequences had to be in accordance with the degree of the crime.

In other words : if the world didn't want the Gospel, God would not force it on them. God sent His gospel and His prophets back on Earth when people *asked* for them.

Del

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God will use Prophets once again, read up on Revelation...He will send 2 prophets to preach the Gospel.  And they will roast alive anybody that gets in their way.  One is the prophet Elijah (Sp?) and not sure on the other.

Revelation doesn't say that there won't be any prophets sent *before* those 2. It just says that 2 prophets will be sent with a special mission.

And Elijah ? Where did you get that ?

Um, your also wrong on the Peter/Heresy thing...The Vision made it clear that even the Gentiles & All unclean things were okay.  Even sent Peter to a Gentiles House to Baptise them etc.,  Um, if your not too sure on these things I'll post tomorrow w/scripture to support this.

I know very well what the vision said. But the message of this vision was in *direct contradiction* with EVERYTHING God through the prophets, and Jesus Himself, ever said. Hence, that vision should have been considered heretical. Unless one accepts that Peter had the gift of prophecy AND that God can reveal new things that *directly contradict* things He taught before.

Jesus also visited the Samarian women,

The Samaritans were not Gentiles. They were Israelites who had lost their way and mixed themselves with Gentiles.

Healed a Gentile woman's daugher of Demons

And if I remember well, He made it very clear then that He and the Gospel were NOT for the Gentiles. He compared the Gentiles to *dogs*. It's only because of the faith and incredible humility of the woman that Christ fulfilled her prayer.

and the Centurians Boy. 

Yes, but again if I remember well, He never went and visited the Centurion or his son. He made it clear that He was not for the Gentiles.

Jesus was impressed with the Faith of these Gentiles in Him, where such faith had not been seen in His neck of the Jewish Woods persay.  :P

He was impressed by their faith, yes, and yet He never said that the Gospel should or would be taught to them. On the contrary, He always made it clear that He was the Messiah *of the Jews*.

And yet, very shortly after He died, Peter instructed the church to turn to the Gentiles, on the basis of a vision that he *alone* had (well, Cornelius confirmed it, but Cornelius was a Gentile, so his testimony didn't matter). It SHOULD have been considered heretic. But it wasn't, because people then understood what a prophet's role was, and how indispensable prophets are.

Del

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This thread is a very good "evidentiary" slam against Christiandoms claims. Well done.

One thing that reminds me, yes, Christ did convert a "few" Gentiles, yet the Gospel wasn't to go to them accept after a time.

Isn't it interesting that that's what happened with the Priesthood and African blacks?

Joseph and others ordained a few, but the Priesthood wasn't yet to go to them for a time until the Lord revealed it so.

True servants don't do anything unless the Lord says so. This demonstrates that Christiandom is certainly in apostacy, and only the "annointed" are to lead His Church.

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This thread is a very good "evidentiary" slam against Christiandoms claims. Well done

I disagree. I think you are all saying "The world NEEDS prophets....but God only gives them to us sometimes...."

So does the world need prophets? Or does the world need prophets sometimes? If God thinks there should be prophets on the Earth why would he wait to send them? Doesn't seem to be his MO. As you pointed out - Jesus was killed. Other prophets were killed. That's been the pattern since the beginning. Do you think God said "I give up....no more prophets for a while!!". I doubt it. If you believe the Bible he has ALWAYS sent prophets, even when no one believed in them. You could list any number in the Old Testament that preached to the wall.

Why would God suddenly change his ways?

Or better yet...why would he not? Let's say he didn't give us prophets for 1800 years because of the wickedness of the people. Did man start becoming less wicked in the 1800s? Do people listen to your prophet outside of your small group of faithful? There are several million active Mormons. That's all in the whole world that listen to your prophet. Sounds like in the days you say the apostacy was happening. Lots of people...no one listening.

I just don't get how you can think that God would always have prophets on the Earth...and then say..."Nope...not for 1800 years and even then very few will listen. That sounds like a great plan!"

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If God thinks there should be prophets on the Earth why would he wait to send them?  Doesn't seem to be his MO.

Who are we to decide what God's MO is ? And even more, who are we to say that He can't change it at will ?

For thousands of years, God restricted His prophets and Gospel to a very small group of people, even though there must have been other people worthy and willing to receive the Gospel and who would maybe have been more obedient than the Israelites. Yet they were never given a chance, unless they happened to live near the Israelites.

So does the world need prophets?  Or does the world need prophets sometimes?  As you pointed out - Jesus was killed.  Other prophets were killed.  That's been the pattern since the beginning.  Do you think God said "I give up....no more prophets for a while!!".  I doubt it.

Give up, no. But punish the world, yes. The Jews were scattered a few decades after Christ was crucified, even though only a few were actually responsible for the crucifixion, many believed Jesus, and most had not had the opportunity to make up their minds. Don't you think that punishment was a tad too extreme ? Especially considering everything that happened to the Jews in exile, all the way to the Holocaust ? Do you think that the 20th century Jews were responsible in any way for crucifying Jesus ? And yet they are the ones who were massacred by millions.

Similarly, the Gentiles killed the Apostles of God. They violently refused the Gospel of God. And God punished them. He punished the whole world for refusing to receive His Son and His Gospel.

In a way, the Gentiles got luckier than the Jews. God relented in favour of the Gentiles after only 1800 years. It took another century before He relented in favour of the Jews.

Did man start becoming less wicked in the 1800s?  Do people listen to your prophet outside of your small group of faithful?  There are several million active Mormons.  That's all in the whole world that listen to your prophet.  Sounds like in the days you say the apostacy was happening.  Lots of people...no one listening. 

That's not the point. God sent His prophets and His Gospel back on Earth because people were actively looking for Him and His teachings. For many centuries, people didn't turn to God to ask for His guidance. The Christian churches changed the teachings of the Bible to fit their interests, or according to their limited understanding. The people still didn't want God's true Gospel. But things started to change around the Reformation. People were now *willing* to look for the true Gospel of God. *This* is why God could now send His Church and His prophets back on Earth. And though some evil people did kill the first prophet, they didn't kill the other leaders. Instead of encouraging the killing of God's people, the world was now protecting them. No matter how many would like to throw LDS to the lions, it simply wouldn't be accepted today. And even if the LDS church itself isn't that big, look at the size and activity of all the christian churches together. More people are truly coming to Christ than ever before in History. People *are* listening to the Gospel.

Del

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Okay, so what we have here is a 2-part discussion. One covers how we need a prophet for Today since we had them all through Biblical times and a short arguement on the 2 witnesses. The 2nd part concering Peter, using the gift of prophecy and "revealing new things that *directly contradict* things He taught before." I suppose your making a case for Joseph Smith here. Are my assumptions correct!?

1. He was a prophet for modern times, as prophets were always around.

2. Prophets w/revelation can *directly contradict* previous taught Truths.

This thread is a very good "evidentiary" slam against Christiandoms claims. Well done.

Due to my being restricted by time (I post from work) I will only cover Peter, and preaching to the Gentiles. Also, this is dedicated to the one I love...Leeuniverse, I love you man! :P

I know very well what the vision said. But the message of this vision was in *direct contradiction* with EVERYTHING God through the prophets, and Jesus Himself, ever said. Hence, that vision should have been considered heretical. Unless one accepts that Peter had the gift of prophecy AND that God can reveal new things that *directly contradict* things He taught before.

What exactly does the Bible teach? That ALL are blessed through Abraham maybe? God fulfilled His promise, Abraham's "seed" has inded blessed all the nations on earth through the birth of Christ. Any arguments here?

Genesis 12:1-3  The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.  I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring (Jesus) all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

"WAIT...What About Matt 15:21-28!?" I hope >THIS< helps answer that. I believe that has more to do with the power of Faith & Belief in Christ Jesus. Course, I do believe we may find ourselves back at Matt 15 later in this thread. <_<

THE VISION(S) OF PETER & CORNELIUS

God was breaking down Peter's Prejudices concerning Gentiles (Acts 10:13-16).

Acts 10:3-6 - Cornelius' Vision

About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?"  So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do."

Acts 10:13-16 - Simon/Peter's Vision

And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean." And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."  This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

PETER MEETS CORNELIUS - Gentiles Acceptable, and to whoever fears!

Acts 10:25-28

As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man." And as he talked with him, he went in and found many who had come together. Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Acts 10:34-36

Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ--He is Lord of all.

VALIDATED BY JESUS & THE HOLY SPIRIT

Acts 10:44-45

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Acts 11:12-18

12Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. 13And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, "Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.' 15And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

I pray that you may one day truly realize the Gospel that you have so often kicked under your heel by your own dogma's before its too late!. 63.gif

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I don't see where these are contradictions, maybe the verses below will help clear some things up...let me know if it doesn't please...

But wasn't that revelation directly contrary to *everything* God had ever taught ?

I know very well what the vision said. But the message of this vision was in *direct contradiction* with EVERYTHING God through the prophets, and Jesus Himself, ever said. Hence, that vision should have been considered heretical. Unless one accepts that Peter had the gift of prophecy AND that God can reveal new things that *directly contradict* things He taught before.

What does Scripture Say!?

Acts 15: 14-18

Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

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I suppose your making a case for Joseph Smith here.  Are my assumptions correct!?

Bah, yes, of course <_<

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't mean anything. The understanding of the Christian Jews before Peter's revelation was that any Gentile could convert to Christianity as long as they converted to Judaism first. Gentiles had never been forbidden to convert to Judaism if they so wished, but they were required to prove their faith with some things, in particular by being circumcised, which the Christian Jews also expected from any convert Gentile. In short : Gentiles had to become Jews first, and then they could become Christians, so was the understanding before Peter's revelation.

Course, I do believe we may find ourselves back at Matt 15 later in this thread. :P

In fact, we've *already* talked about that, and I explained that in this case, Jesus makes it very clear that He was not sent to the Gentiles, but *only* to the Jews.

You then go on explaining about the process that took place, how Peter and Cornelius confirmed each other's revelation, and how the Holy Spirit confirmed both of them. My only problem is that I don't see how this contradicts the LDS method. The confirmation by the Holy Ghost, in particular, is very much what the LDS church teaches.

I pray that you may one day truly realize the Gospel that you have so often kicked under your heel by your own dogma's before its too late!

I don't understand what you mean ??

Del

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16'After this I will return

        And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;

        I will rebuild its ruins,

        And I will set it up;

        17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD.

      Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,

        Says the LORD who does all these things'(Amos 9:11-12).

"I will call them My people, who were not My people,

        And her beloved, who was not beloved."(Hosea 2:23)

        26"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

        "You are not My people,'

        There they shall be called sons of the living God"(Hosea 1:10)

You have a point. But :

1. It is pretty obvious that only those who were enlightened by the Holy Ghost could truly understand what it meant before it happened.

2. Even in the light of what happened, those verses can *still* be construed to mean what they don't mean. The non-Christian Jews were not converted to Judaism when Christianity fulfilled one of their own prophecies, and even the Christian Jews had a lot of problems accepting real Gentiles straight in the church.

Similarly, we LDS say that there are prophecies in the Bible that refer to the Restoration (for example, Daniel's interpretation of the dream of the stone cut out of a mountain without the help of man, and which filled the Earth). To us, they *obviously* prophesy of the LDS church. But not to anyone else.

As for Romans, it cannot be used as an argument, since it was written after Peter's revelation. However, it does strongly remind me of many of the modern LDS prophets who often made the connection between what God teaches now and prophecies of the past.

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