Guest johnny_cat Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 How is this non-biblical? Is it your assertion that since the Bible says it (the Bible) is true, then it must be?How do you know?I was thinking the same thing. Former, are you saying that the Bible is self-evidently true? That it is the word of God because it says it is?
FormerLDS Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 The only objective connection is that record, used throughout history, the holy grail and that which shed the blood of the remission.
FormerLDS Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 I was thinking the same thing. Former, are you saying that the Bible is self-evidently true? That it is the word of God because it says it is?Essentially, yes, Johnny.The word of God is true, because it is written that truth is the word of God.Historical facts support the record, but do not "prove" truth in any way.I view the word of God as being infinately more reliable than any historical facts.
T-Shirt Posted October 26, 2004 Author Posted October 26, 2004 I was thinking the same thing. Former, are you saying that the Bible is self-evidently true? That it is the word of God because it says it is?Essentially, yes, Johnny.The word of God is true, because it is written that truth is the word of God.Historical facts support the record, but do not "prove" truth in any way.I view the word of God as being infinately more reliable than any historical facts. Okay, I ask you one more time, how do you know? The Book of Mormon also claims itself to be the word of God, yet you reject it. How do you know the Bible is the truth?T-Shirt
Guest johnny_cat Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 Okay, I ask you one more time, how do you know? The Book of Mormon also claims itself to be the word of God, yet you reject it. How do you know the Bible is the truth?Not to mention that Former says he received a witness that the Book of Mormon is true. But on the basis of simply deciding that the Bible, and particularly his interpretation of it, is true, he rejects the witness of the Spirit. Seems kind of arbitrary to me.
FormerLDS Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 Knowledge and belief are tempered together.If you would believe the word of God, then you would know why the Book of Mormon cannot be the word of God, but you do not believe the word of God, the truth."And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Tim 4:4
heavymental Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 If you would believe the word of God, then you would know why the Book of Mormon cannot be the word of God, but you do not believe the word of God, the truth.That makes no sense whatsoever... I believe the Bible to be the word of God, and I can also believe the BoM to be the word of God...
Del March Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 Knowledge and belief are tempered together.Says who ? Do you have a scripture to support that ?If you would believe the word of God, then you would know why the Book of Mormon cannot be the word of God, but you do not believe the word of God, the truth.You mean : if I believed in the same interpretation of the Bible as you do, the interpretation that says that there can't be any more revelations or prophets, then I would know why the BoM cannot be the word of God. Well, yes, obviously. Problem is : I think your interpretation of the Bible is flawed, while mine is right.Del
T-Shirt Posted October 26, 2004 Author Posted October 26, 2004 Knowledge and belief are tempered together.If you would believe the word of God, then you would know why the Book of Mormon cannot be the word of God, but you do not believe the word of God, the truth."And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Tim 4:4 Former, come on, can you cut the tap dancing and answer the question? It is very simple:How do you know that the Bible is the truth? Don't quote scripture, that is like me claiming to be the reincarnation of Elvis and upon being asked why I think this, I respond, "Because I said so."T-Shirt
FormerLDS Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 QUOTE Knowledge and belief are tempered together. Says who ? Do you have a scripture to support that ?QUOTE If you would believe the word of God, then you would know why the Book of Mormon cannot be the word of God, but you do not believe the word of God, the truth.You mean : if I believed in the same interpretation of the Bible as you do, the interpretation that says that there can't be any more revelations or prophets, then I would know why the BoM cannot be the word of God. Well, yes, obviously. Problem is : I think your interpretation of the Bible is flawed, while mine is right.Del Del,With all due respect, it has been my experience that most Latter-day Saints, good as they may be, do not believe the word of God.I'm not talking about Former's interpretation.I'm talking about the plain, simple reading of the word of God.
FormerLDS Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 QUOTE (FormerLDS @ Oct 26 2004, 02:48 PM) Knowledge and belief are tempered together.If you would believe the word of God, then you would know why the Book of Mormon cannot be the word of God, but you do not believe the word of God, the truth."And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Tim 4:4 Former, come on, can you cut the tap dancing and answer the question? It is very simple:How do you know that the Bible is the truth? Don't quote scripture, that is like me claiming to be the reincarnation of Elvis and upon being asked why I think this, I respond, "Because I said so."T-ShirtI believe the Bible is the truth because the Bible claims to be the truth, and I have chosen to believe what is written with my whole heart apart from all historical, archeological, scientific, or any other evidence.The Bible says it, and I have chosen to believe it, therefore, I know that the Bible is the truth.Historical, archeological, scientific, and other evidences support the claims within record, but do not prove that it is truth.Truth demands only to be believed.
asciikerr Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 I'm just saving him the trouble.... pseudogratix says: "Why do you accept the extra-biblical proposition that the Bible is the word of God? As you are surely aware, the Bible makes no claims about itself, let alone that it is the word of God."
FormerLDS Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 The Bible doesn't ever mention the bible. 1 Peter 1:25 clarifies that the Bible is the word of God."But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
TrespassersW Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 Former:The Bible says it, and I have chosen to believe it, therefore, I know that the Bible is the truth.I can respect that. That is, in my opinion, a very reasonable answer. One that acknowledges the limitations of human education. But you've also said:If you would believe the word of God, then you would know why the Book of Mormon cannot be the word of God, but you do not believe the word of God, the truth.Seems to me that you're coming from an awfully shaky foundation here. If your primary reason for believing the Bible is something as arbitrary as your own preference, then on what basis do you dismiss Latter-day Saint belief in the Book of Mormon?
pseudogratix Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 1 Peter 1:25 clarifies that the Bible is the word of God...."But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."Sigh. "The word" here doesn't mean "the Bible."
John Russell Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 Former,You never responded with definitive sources to the veracity of the Longinus story and tradition. You appeared to place considerable weight on the witness of that man in an earlier posting, but is there any extra-biblical information on Longinus that is authentic?I have a question regarding the Bible version that you feel is the Word of God -- Does this apply to all versions, or are some better then others? I'm a newbie on the board and don't know what you may have shared previously.
jlp Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 Prometheus of GreecePrometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind. He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead. He was called the Logos or Word. Where did you get this information on Prometheus?1) Promethus was a Titan (elder god) who gave man the gift of fire and knowledge. He also tricked Zeus into letting men keep the best part of their sacrifices to the gods.2) For giving men fire and knowledge, Zeus had Prometheus bound to a crag in the Caucasus mountains, where every day an eagle ate his liver and every night it grew back, until Heracles killed the eagle and released him. I never heard that Prometheus actually died in the process.3) I never heard him referred to as Logos. His name means forethought, for what it's worth. He had a brother, Epimetheus, whose name means afterthought.Epimetheus accepted the gift of Pandora (the first woman) from Zeus in spite of his brother's warning not to accept gifts from Zeus...and she introduced evil into the world by opening a chest or jar she was instructed not to open that was filled with the diseases and afflictions of men. Pandora is often considered a type of Eve.Edit:Prometheus, Athena, and Epimetheus created man. Here's a link with the whole story as I pretty much remember it:Prometheus info
FormerLDS Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 OTE (FormerLDS @ Oct 27 2004, 09:46 AM) 1 Peter 1:25 clarifies that the Bible is the word of God...."But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." Sigh. "The word" here doesn't mean "the Bible." This post has been edited by pseudogratix on Oct 26 2004, 11:16 PM Does "this" mean "this" or does "this" actually mean "that"?
FormerLDS Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 Former,You never responded with definitive sources to the veracity of the Longinus story and tradition. You appeared to place considerable weight on the witness of that man in an earlier posting, but is there any extra-biblical information on Longinus that is authentic?The spear of Longinus has a definate connection throughout history beginning with rulers such as Constantine and Alexander the Great and used as recently as 1932 by the likes of Adolf Hitler. Fact: The same day the spear was recovered by General Patton
pseudogratix Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 Does "this" mean "this" or does "this" actually mean "that"?The topic is "the word of the Lord" (or, as in verse 23, "the word of God"). In the case of verse 25, "this" refers to "the word of the Lord." So, you could easily rephrase the KJV verse as "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And the word of the Lord is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
FormerLDS Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 QUOTE (FormerLDS @ Oct 28 2004, 02:04 AM) Does "this" mean "this" or does "this" actually mean "that"? The topic is "the word of the Lord" (or, as in verse 23, "the word of God"). In the case of verse 25, "this" refers to "the word of the Lord." So, you could easily rephrase the KJV verse as "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And the word of the Lord is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. But it doesn't say that, does it, Pseudo?It uses the word "this".This [the Bible] is the word of the Lord.
Guest johnny_cat Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 It uses the word "this".This [the Bible] is the word of the Lord. Actually, it doesn't say that, either, FormerLDS. It says this:"But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." There are two possibilities:1. "This" is a pronoun referring to an antecedent, in this case, "the word of the Lord." The parallel structure makes this interpretation the most likely, IMO.2. "This" is a pronoun referring to the actual text Peter is writing. Again, given the parallel structure, this is probably less likely.Either way, it cannot be referring to the Bible, as such a thing did not exist at the time.
FormerLDS Posted October 27, 2004 Posted October 27, 2004 Believe what you will, but I belive "this" refers to the thing in front of you when you're reading the verse.
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