Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) D&C 121:25-31 states: 25For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be. 26God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;27Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times,which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory; 28A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest. 29All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ. 30And also, if there be abounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars— 31All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times—****************LDS people should not be to wrapped up about the beliefs of the ancient Hebrews or over the Bible when it comes to the question of polytheism or monotheism, IMO. It doesn't matter much what they knew on this topic, because there are some things that never were revealed to them, which ARE revealed in these last days. Edited July 18, 2011 by Fig-bearing Thistle
David T Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I don't tend to look to the ancients for the most accurate understanding of religion. I look at it to see how understanding changed, developed, and how they interpreted deity's interaction with man, and what questions and problems arose from those interpretations. For me, it's a fascinating study in the nature and history of revelation, which to me, is fascinating and appears quite evolutionary.
SAVELLI Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) I don't tend to look to the ancients for the most accurate understanding of religion. I look at it to see how understanding changed, developed, and how they interpreted deity's interaction with man, and what questions and problems arose from those interpretations. For me, it's a fascinating study in the nature and history of revelation, which to me, is fascinating and appears quite evolutionary.My personal viewpoint, presented in so published materials, even in Jewish and Muslim sites and Forums, and also LDS and quite science others, is that there is just ONE GOD and nothing more than the ONE GOD. That is in accordance with SHEMA statement from Old Testament and also is in the agreement with Koran Book from Islam (for the Muslim people, I am a former Muslim that converted into LDS without work of missionary effort in 1990, as result of scientific evaluation of Book of Mormon by myself). Also I concluded the truth that there is just ONE GOD from Book of Mormon, from the Book of Alma, in Chapter 11, at 11:22 to 11:31.For sure I believe exactly in what it was being the subject being discussed, fiercely, in ALMA chapter 11:22. The discussion was about the "ONE GOD" as being exactly the "SUPREME BEING" who is exactly just the "ONE BEING", who is not TWO or THREE or NONE BEING. It is just "ONE" BEING. For sure Heavenly Father and His Son are two very distinct "BEINGS" and Heavenly Father one day was not "God", our mighty God, but was a mortal man that progressed up to become "father" of spiritual sons and of a tangible son who is Jesus, who is the "Son of Man, Son of the Holly Man, Son of the Man of Holiness..." as Jesus explained about who was his tangible father. Joseph Smith explained about the nature and progress of those who are "Gods", as Heavenly Father, in his speech in the funeral of the elder King Follet. See it. For sure a God is a "servant" of other God: his Father. But there is just one Supreme and just ONE SUPREME FATHER, ONE SUPREME COMMANDANT, ONE SUPREME JEHOVAH, the "ONE GOD as SUPREME BEING", as taught in Alma 11:22.Even with attempt from the Evil, from Lucifer trough Zeezrom's offer of the payment of a bribery, of six onties of silver, it was not denied the truth the existence of a Supreme Being, ot the ONE GOD. For sure There is just ONE GOD as Supreme Being (Alma 11:24, the reason of discussion and offer of bribery), who is the TRUE and LIVING GOD (thus the Supreme Being is the true I AM, I AM WHAT I AM, I AM before any other God becomes or turn into God, including Heavenly God... as when Heavenly God was just living as a mortal man...). Thus "there is, not there are, a TRUE AND LIVING GOD, just ONE" (Alma 11:27)". Is there more than ONE GOD (the SUPREME BEING, the reason of discussion, started in Alma 11:22, witth attempt of "bribery"?)-Alma 11:28??? And the answer (Alma 11:29) was: NO (there is not more than ONE SUPREME BEING, not more than the ONE GOD as the SUPREME BEING, as the ONE SUPREME COMMANDANT=SUPREME JEHOVAH=SUPREME ALLAH).ALMA 11:30: How knowest thou these things? It was by our God's revelation (from God's Son, ONE GOD's Divine Verb, and Heavenly Father's Son revelation through the Angel). Notice that the discussion is centered about the existence of a (= "one") SUPREME BEING and not about many Gods, like the Father, the Son and Holly Ghost. What was intended? Devil intended that such "existence" was denied, even through the use of BRIBERY.This is why it is offered six onties of silver. They were offered just to DENY the "existence of a=one SUPREME BEING".All the discussion, in the following text, is about such a = one SUPREME BEING, who is a = one God.The SUPREME BEING is a "singular being": I AM WHAT I AM. Is previous to any other being (or would not be "supreme") and has no partners or companions. Is SUPREME. We know that Heavenly Father one day was a mortal man and "progressed" up to the perfection, to become a greatest God (clear speech of Joseph Smith). The same is with Jesus. Thus they are not the Supreme Being, who is just "one". But they are in the "Supreme Being" in such a way they are just "one" and also the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father and also they are just "one": should they be "one meaning THE SAME?". No, they are distinct. We know that the Father is greater than the Son and thus the Son is not the "Greatest of all Gods" (as is in one Doctrine and Covenant: a clear mistake when typing, between God x "god = prophet = God's servant"... Thus Jesus didn't die as the greatest of all "Gods" but as the greatest of all "gods". Exactly what Moses and other prophets foretold: that Jesus would live as the greatest of all "prophets = gods", so great he was to change "Moses' Covenant" and settle a new and eternal Covenant... John (15:1-17). Well, Jesus told he was like a Vine's tree and that we are grafted into such vine's tree or we don't receive the "living water, the divine sap" and we die and fall to be gathered and be transported away for burning. In fact the true Jesus' Heavenly Father is another Vine's tree, because Jesus told his Father is exactly like him... Thus Jesus is also linked (grafted, inserted) into Father's Vine... And the Heavenly Man ("gardner"), only a Spirit, who is gathering all fallen and dead/dry branches and leaves is the Supreme Being, taking care of all Gods and having the greatest/Supreme powers and features. Even being a spirit, also is living into the Vine's Tree, quite like the Supreme Holly Spirit.Thus Supreme Being, the I am What I am, is living in ALL Gods and all Gods are living in the Supreme Being (as Supreme Spirit Being), as "just one". The symbolic way to show such relationship is next presented. It was first presented to Jew sites on Kabala, esoteric teaching, some 10 years ago (or more?).http://www.mediafire...90eec41d06g.jpgClick on above URL to see the next figure very much enlarged (to see much better the details). ARVORE DA VIDA = TREE OF LIFE (Symbol of the ONE GOD, Vine's TREE).The last big Tree of Life (with tree top) on the right side, is Heavenly Father with his Heavenly Mothers (the symbolism is Menorah candestick at the entrance of the Temple) on top layers and from such Tree of Life = God's Creator "Vine" (God ELOHIM) departs thick branches to other smaller Trees of Life, Son (at the very right extremity) and Holly Ghost (in fore ground, Espirito Santo). The 3 are like ONE TREE (the Father) branched as ONE, making a TRINITY. The FATHER is greater than the TREE SON and is in the SON, as the SON is just a "BRANCH". The SUPREME TREE (the ONE GOD as SUPREME BEING) is in the TREE OF LIFE "ELOHIM, Heavenly Father" and Heavenly Father is in the Supreme Being, but Supreme Being is Greater.Jesus is not the Greatest of all Gods, as is in the Doctrine and Covenants that talk about the death of Jesus. In fact a branch is never greater than the TREE. Jesus died as the GREATEST of the "gods = God's PROPHETS" on Earth. Thus the word PROPHET was missing when they TYPED the D&C the first time... Mistakes take place. In Koran it is very clear that a very important "God" had a Son, Jesus, and it was for everybody in Heaven rejoyce with his birth. But in other place it was clearly said that Jesus was not biologic son of "Supreme Being, the ONE GOD", that nobody was such biologic Son. Few understand There are many dozens of distinct sites to present this reasoning and teaching, for distinct situations and readers, as orthodox Jews, Muslim, LDS, etc. They are long available in Internet. There are some more specific for the Father and Son, other for the Father-son-Holly Ghost, other with Supreme Being in the duality as if a Man and simultaneously a Spirit Being living in the Supreme Tree of Life, at the left side and in pale green color. We have like a thick stem (branch) going left (not shown) and the other coming foreground and ending in the TRINITY. There are many God's ancestors, because when Heavenly Father was a mortal Man he had a Heavenly Father also.... What is interesting us is that the main stem comes to Heavenly Father only, who is a "big tree of life", a God. Be God is to have "roots", capacity to have independent life, generate His own "LIVING WATER" ("sap, divinity priesthood").Departing from the Heavenly Father "Tree of Life" there is a "stem, branch" toward the Son "tree of life", that also has his own "roots": is God. But He is smaller than Father. As is a "branch" from Father's tree, is only "part" of the Father's Tree. Thus Father's Tree = God Father, is greater than him, Son's Tree = God Son. Both are part of the Supreme Tree of Life = Supreme God = Supreme Being = Just "one God as such, as Supreme Being", the teaching of Alma 11:22-29, and nobody denied the existence of such just ONE SUPREME BEING, none bribery was paid... and such Supreme Tree of Life was always the True and Living Tree as Supreme Being and God...).You can see that in front of Heavenly Father is the Tree of Life "Holly Ghost" who also is a branch, grafted into the Father's Tree of Life, through a thick stem. We have the same reasoning. John (15:1-17)..If I come to the Son Tree of Life and ask him, who is him, he will answer:- I AM WHAT I AM! For sure! The Supreme Tree of Life is just living grafted in the Supreme Tree of Life. Thus the Supreme Tree of Life is living into him and can use him as VERB and speak through him. And say the truth. As your hand can "say" that it is "YOU"! But it is not the "total" you... Thus after the initial presentation, the SON Tree of Life will explain:- Oh, my brother Moses! I provided shadow for your ancestors. Also I provided plenty of edible fruits. And they needed water; I gave them the "living waters, my divine sap". At the night, when the temperature was becoming cool, my leaves worked as if a blanket to keep them warm. I am your direct Jehovah. The thinking is based on a Tree of Life which here is shown quite like as a Vine's Tree, in which since for Ever existed the Supreme Tree of Life. With best personal regards, sincerely yours, Savelli (of the Sabelli's) Edited July 19, 2011 by SAVELLI
thesometimesaint Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 SAVELLI:I think a better discription would be a Godhead.
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 Savelli:I like your analogy, and how it works with the "tree of life"http://shelledy.mesa.k12.co.us/staff/computerlab/ColoradoLifeZones_Montane_Forests_Adaptations.html The aspen tree is one of the most amazing trees. Did you know that a grove or forest of aspen is one of the largest living organisms on the planet? Aspen trees can make new trees with seeds and with their roots. The roots grow out of the ground and create new trees. The new trees make more roots that travel farther and create new aspen trees. Eventually, whole forests of aspen trees may grow from one aspen tree. All the trees may be connected by their roots. Even though it looks like many different trees, they may be all one organism.Many trees, or one tree?It depends on how you look at it!
SAVELLI Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Savelli:I like your analogy, and how it works with the "tree of life". In fact it is just JOHN 15:1-9http://shelledy.mesa...daptations.htmlMany trees, or one tree? See the very HUGEST CASHEW TREE in beach PIRANGI, in town NATAL, Northeast Brazil. JUST ONE TREE, all interconnected visible thick branches, generating EDIBLE FRUITS. Quite like the Vine's tree, but much more didactic example.It depends on how you look at it!Supreme Tree of Life, symbolism of just the "ONE GOD, ALLAH (the Supreme Divinity, The=a=one Supreme Being = Alma 11:22), is living in all other distinct Tree of Life (symbolism of distinct Gods) and they are living in the Supreme Tree of Life (symbolism of just the "ONE GOD, the Supreme Being", and they are just "ONE". It is as if each God is the Divine Temple, in His Living Body, for the Supreme Being (Supreme Spirit) live for ever. Thus all our worship only reach the Supreme Being, the ONE GOD, through the Supreme Priest, and our Earthly Temples are just Models or Shadows of such Divinity Temples in which Gods are the Living Temples of the ONE GOD... We are to talk about the "Jewish viewpoint" of who is God in some esoteric viewpoint (Kabala). In it you can re-evaluate God's concept according our LDS and Sabelli's Faith. As to accommodate something like "Trinity". Even going to much broad concepts, as the one presented in previous my posted material. http://www.geocities...ree_kabbala.htm TREE OF (DIVINE) LIFE: SYMBOL OF SUPREME ONLY G-D [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Hebrew & Kabballah, Tree of Life ]Posted on March 07, 2002 at 11:51:22: You will see it contains (reproduce, as a figure) my oldest posted literature about Supreme Being, the One God, and Gods (thus about Trinity) representation as a Vine's Tree Jesus'. The teachings from 1991 reasoning included in the text for Kabballah sites. That was quite long ago. Also other texts were uploaded in Islamic (Muslim) sites...A Vine's Tree is originated from another Vine's Tree, the Father, who also originated from other Vine's Tree.The Grand-Father Vine's Tree: Joseph Smith's speech at the funeral of elder king Follet.... Indeed, Smith claimed in the King Follett Discourse that: ..... "God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child and mortal like we are, and rose step by step in the scale of progress..."Thus Father Vine's Tree is exactly alike the Son Vine's Tree. Because the Father is exactly alike the Son, as figure (appearance) and bodily person, as Jesus taught.That the Son told clearly about his Heavenly Father, just being a tangible MAN of Holiness and not being only a Spiritual Being as Holly Ghost..Symbolically He is alike another Vine's Tree, from "vegetal kingdom", as Jesus as Jehovah. Not being alike or having all the "GARDNER's features" as "animal kingdom”: having much greater freedom, as to gather things, walk, transport them to far away distance, pile up them, set up fire for cleaning of diseases, etc. This one, Supreme Being, the "GARDNER", can be reasoned as being of having another type of powers and features, as if combining vegetal and animal kingdom nature together, dual supreme existence as so peculiar "Being". Thus we use "WHAT" and not "WHO" as a proper title for Supreme Being, as is not "Human being" as we are...One of Supreme Being's features is of being the "supreme creator = FATHER, not biological" of the Vine's Trees "PLANTATION" (as if the "GARDNER" is the "farmer") that he CULTIVATES, quite like ADAM, since from ever and ever. Thus we can understand HIS title, the I AM, and I AM "what" I AM.He keeps them, all Vine's Tree, that are in the Supreme Tree of Life, in the Supreme Vine's Tree, that are grafted into just ONE, His Supreme Divine SAP can flow toward and circulate through any Vine's Tree as your BLOOD (Living Waters) do in YOU. And keep you, the diversity of You, Your's distinct parts, in good condition and healthy. Any disease and decay and apostasy is eliminated, from the command of a Supreme YOU, that we may reason as Spiritual and living in YOU. Remove such and you are dead.... The "Gardner", Supreme Being, moves the sick and apostasied parts of each Vine's Tree of Life to far away, to burn the sick and fallen decayed leaves and corrupted stems. Thus keeping the Vine's Trees Healthy and PROGRESSING, having FRUITS, plenty of FRUITS. We are to talk about that.All materials, from Supreme Being's kingdom (Vine's Tree that compose just One and Supreme Tree of Life, just ONE LIFE in it... but many Divinity Priesthood, "sap"),that become dead and sick and refuses to accept Vine's Tree "sap", divine living waters from Divine Vine's Trees in which is "grafted", is removed, in due time, by Gardner, to burn far away. Those parts, sick, that decides to heal them, and progress and bear many fruits, remain in the Vine's Tree of Life. The Vine's Divine Tree is to grow eternally and to produce good and plenty edible fruits. The next drawing (figure) is from March 19, 1991 (thus from 20 years ago).http://www.mediafire...cb827a1976g.jpgCLICK on above URL to see the next down figure, of the SUPREME TREE OF LIFE (the ONE GOD, in which are all Gods, distinct ones, as Tree of Life generating their own "Divinity Sap=Priesthood" at their self "ROOTS", they are self-sufficient and can live independently but in any way live as if just "one Being" in the "Supreme Being": just One). Here is the message posted in the Kabballah site, some 10 (ten) years ago: . . . "TREE OF LIFE" is imagined as "ONE TREE", having prohibited "fruits". Jan.99 I proposed other viewpoint for "TREE": being endless, eternal and "growing". Being the representation of I AM WHAT I AM, living since eternities and for all eternities, never born or die. Under such concept "ONE TREE" is "SEEN" through infinite "Creations", each with "own TREE OF LIFE" that in fact is the SAME previous "TREE OF LIFE", as they are united through a thick living "branch" (circulating "sap", "divine life, wisdom, power, intelligence, etc.). Thus in fact 2 distinct TREEs are "THE SAME LIVING BEING"="ONE". Process continues back, left, infinitely, up to we reach the PRIMORDIAL TREE (in fact just "imaginary" possibility, as we can't reach INFINITE and ETERNITY before). We got to kabbalistic idea of "EEIN SOF" (the unknowable G-d) that is the same TREE Being living in ALL TREE: the "SUPREME G-D", SUPREME YHWH (as "commandant") as CREATOR of ALL CREATIONS (done through INFINITE TREES, which are ONLY "branches" of just "ONE TREE"). If I approach one such TREE OF LIFE, last of right side (has "ROOTS": produces "self" SAP = generates Self Priesthood), and I ask: Who are you? The answer is: I AM WHAT I AM, I AM THE SUPREME AND UNIQUE TREE OF LIFE, ALLWAYS EXISTING, and none TREE exists out of Me. But you may call Me Jehovah, your local TREE OF LIFE: I nurtured Abraham, Jacob and Jesus Christ. You are grafted into Me (came from TREE FATHER, who takes care of Me), in my thick horizontal branch toward the right, living with your brothers, as small branches. I feed you with "water of life": my "divine sap". Without that you die, dry and fall to ground, to be gathered for burning. If you remain in Me, you stay alive. I am the source of your life and progress. Unless crossing through Me, your sap can't travel to my Father TREE OF LIFE. Also my Father TREE OF LIFE's sap can't travel to you unless through Me. I am your only one G-d. The SUPREME G-D is in Me and I am in Him. My Father TREE OF LIFE and I am the SAME LIVING TREE, intimately united: we are ONE and ONE we are with all TREES OF LIFE and with SUPREME G-D, just "ONE". Also SUPREME G-D, TREE OF "DIVINE" LIFE, can have several "stages/layers" (as level of tree branches at several height in an infinitely tall SUPREME, TREE OF "DIVINE" LIFE: that I posted in INTERNET in Jan.2002). Such model of TREE OF LIFE exists in NATAL, northeast Brazil huge touristic beach town (pictures are in Internet) having a very huge and old cashew-tree spreading hugely from just ONE TREE (primordial one, linked by thick branches: I visited it in 1981). There is another LINK showing how a TREE OF LIFE can be just "ONE" and simultaneously MALE and FEMALE, all producing "FRUITS": illustrative drawing are in INTERNET. We can imagine TREE OF LIFE FATHER and ANCESTORS as being in fact of MALE and FEMALE NATURE. Ideas not from Zohar (Kabbalah) but having some similarity. "Features" of Ein Sof, the "unknowable G-d", were evaluated according this new model of Kabbalah, in other sites, following "steps-by-steps" of reasoning/modeling. Follow Ups: Post a Followup Name : E-Mail : Subject : Comments:Optional Link URL: [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Hebrew & Kabballah, Tree of Life ] WWWAdmin 2.0a © 1997 Matt Wright and DBasics Software Company, All Rights ReservedThe SUPREME BEING is not only conceivable as a VEGETAL LIFEFORM, but it is not limited to our LIFEFORM STYLES. IS SUPREME. CAN BE LIKE VEGETAL AND ANIMAL LIFEFORM SIMULTANEOUSLY.SAVELLI, on 16 July 2011 - 09:40 AM, said: We are to talk about the "Jewish and ISLAMIC and LDS viewpoint" of who is the "just ONE God, Supreme Being"Problems with upload of the DRAWING on symbolic representation of the SUPREME BEING, the ONE GOD in all Gods..http://www.mediafire...81a6580846g.jpgWhat should or could be the "SUPREME BEING, the I AM WHAT I AM", Who ("What") speaks through "His'" Divine VERBs = Gods, as if Holly Ghost speaks through us?For sure Book of Mormon, in Book of Alma, teaches us that there is just one such "SUPREME BEING (the One GOD, always TRUE and LIVING as the only I AM WHAT I AM: in the singular time and person". He is not in any "TRINITY": was ALONE before all Gods, as Heavenly Father, became Gods). , For Jewish people we can reason as being the Supreme Jehovah and our Jehovah God is "His" supreme "Divine Verb, spokesman" for us. He is a "Supreme Proxy of Powers and features". Thus our Jehovah is as Supreme Priest of Supreme Divinity and Priesthood... (the symbol being the “Supreme Divine SAP, the living water that flows through all the Supreme Tree of Life, including through the TRINITY of Trees closely related to us…). See drawing already provided above. For Muslim (Islamic people), we have such Supreme Being as ALLAH, AL ILAH, Supreme Divinity for Gods. For sure ALLAH has Supreme SERVANTS, “divine verbs and spokesmen”, we call “God”. And in fact God, our Heavenly Father, a Holy man, had a son. It is in Koran Book, very clearly. But it is said that Jesus Christ besides being sun of so greatest ALLAH’s Servant (God), is not biologic son of Supreme Being. Nobody is… Also Koran Book says clearly Adam was God and ALLAH ordered all to “worship” Adam as God. Lucifer and his angels rebelled against ALLAH’s decision that is all God’s decision. Because of this they were expelled out of Heaven. Brigham Young taught clearly the doctrine of Adam God. Koran book is plenty of reference about Book of Mormon, but biased people are unable to discover/unveil them. Koran book deals with the theme of “TRINITY”, I guess in the proper way. Koran book is very corrupted in some parts but the text itself warns about for those with open eyes. Koran book teaches about the War in Heaven, in pre-existence. And teach about "Gods" under ALLAH: as supreme "Servants". Your 2 hands are "you", no doubt. But they are just "servants" of "You". The same all that compose the "you". Where is sited "you"? Where is sited Supreme Being?For sure NONE DISCUSSION was going on about Gods existence (like about Heavenly Father, Holly Ghost and Jesus Christ and others, or about "TRINITY"), in the event mentioned in Book of Mormon, in Book of Alma 11:22 to 31. Because the specific discussion theme was about the Supreme Being, as the Supreme One God. It was not about the Trinity being one God. OPEN THE EYES. With best personal regards, sincerely yours, Savelli This post has been edited by SAVELLI: 2 days ago THE SUPREME TREE OF LIFE, symbolism of the ONE GOD in which lives all Gods, Supreme SERVANTS of the ONE GOD, SUPREME JEHOVAH, under a CASHEW TREE AS SYMBOLISM:Think about the Supreme Being as just ONE (it is in Book of Mormon, in Book of Alma "11:22" up to 11:31), the One God for all Gods. This didn't come from theologians. We can reason the Supreme Being as the FIRST ORIGIN of the Supreme Tree of Life, as if a Supreme Vine's Tree. Next (below) I will provide a Cashew Tree as example of Supreme Tree, instead with Vine's Tree. Because we have in Brazil a very gigantic (very huge) such "model" in 3-D (3 dimension), that is very much very old and much spread, we are to use it.Mainly because it spreads as Vine's Tree do. Any Cashew Tree provides a long branch that bends to the soil and there sprout new roots.And from the new roots start a new Cashew Tree, as if a new Tree of Life. But the two Trees, Cashew Tree, are quite like Father and Son Trees that remain united, for ever, through the Thick Stem (branch).Thus Tree Cashew Son (as if Tree of Life Son) can provide its "sap" (living waters) from its own roots to circulate through whole Tree Cashew Father and Vice-Versa.And the process continues, as from Son to Grand-son, and to Grand-Grand-Son, etc. The result is that from just one "Supreme and PRIMORDIAL" Cashew Tree, the symbolism of the Supreme Being, originated all other "Cashew Tree" (descendents, like Tree of Life Son). And they are physically interconnected as being just "one". They remain as "one being". And the "sap" generated from one Tree of Life can circulate through all others Tree of Life and including through the Supreme and Primordial and Transcendental Supreme Tree of Life.They are one, but to send the "divine sap" from an older Tree of Life (as from the Supreme Tree of Life) you need to follow like a hierarchy from priesthood, from Father to the Son.It is evident that any Tree of Life symbolism (Cashew Tree "father") remains for ever including the "Tree of Life Sons" and other their Tree of Life Descendents. Thus the Tree of Life Father (God Father) is always Greater than the Tree of Life Son, as continues to "include them" as if son(s), as just "branches" (younger extensions). It is evident that Tree of Life Supreme Father of all is the Supreme Being, symbolism of the Supreme One God, before any other God had originated from Him. The I AM. In the next (below) drawing, you can see that the Cashew Tree of Life FATHER had 2 branches, of very vigorous growth and fast, that touched the ground, generated "roots" and they became "independent" Tree of Life SON (at the extreme right) and HOLLY Ghost (in foreground, in front of Father Tree of Life). The Father Tree of Life (God symbolism) remains "physically" united to the SON Tree of Life. And independently also remains "physically" united to the HOLLY GHOST Tree of Life. They are just "One being", as they are physically and functionally "united as ONE", as Father's Tree of Life, that is greater than them, the SONs. Thus for Holly Ghost Tree of Life send his "divine sap" to us it is required that our Tree of Life direct commandant (in which we are "grafted") ask the Tree of Life "father" to authorize such movement of "divine sap" passing through the Father Tree of Life (God Father). But Tree of Life Father is also linked to other Tree, the Tree of Life Grand-Father and that is the only connection toward the Supreme Tree of Life, which is just ONE, but is also living in all other Trees of Life "descendents" as we are in the Supreme Tree of Life.http://www.mediafire...90eec41d06g.jpgClick on above URL to see the next figure very much enlarged (to see much better the details).And the physical representation, model, of above gathering of Trees of Life, of Gods, as being included in the Supreme Tree of Life, is shown in the very huge Cashew Trees in the beach of Pirangi, at the town of Natal (it is a beach town, in the very North-East of Brazil; airplanes depart from there to cross Atlantic Ocean to Europe and Africa).http://www.mediafire...fa8603c8b6g.jpgClick over the URL to see the next picture very much enlarged. Think about the Cashew Tree as a better model than Vine's tree for intellectual reasoning. http://www.mediafire...bb9fc88c36g.jpg Click on previous URL and see under (inside) the world largest Cashew Tree.It is the best symbolism of the Tree of Life (better than Jesus' Vine Tree in John 15:1-6.You can see the thick branches (stems) uniting distinct "Cashew Tree" that in fact live as JUST ONE BEING.True "TRINITY" is like that union of Trees of Life, of Cashew Tree (above): they are independent but remain united as "one".The "Tree" is a good example that they live in harmony. It is not possible for a Tree move away or in conflict with Father or Son Cashew Trees. As if you right hand could travel outside of you or have conflict with your left hand or if both are not under just one supreme command.But if required, they can have autonomous (involuntary) movement, as by electrical shocks, contact with very hot things, etc.Should it be a true symbolism of "TRINITY"? More than 3 Trees of Life.If so, such TRINITY is only as part of something "GREATER" God's Association. Clear teaching in King's Follet speach. With best personal regards, sincerely yours, Savelli (of the Sabelli's) Edited July 19, 2011 by SAVELLI
Ron Beron Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Apparently, the Sumerians would have agreed with Savelli's argument of Tree of Life that would be a stand in for the concept of a godhead. In many bas reliefs from Babylon there shows the Tree of Life as a representation of the godheadNoted Assyriologist Simo Parpola in the book "One God or Many?: Concepts of Divinity in the Ancient World" (Transactions of the Casco Bay Assyriological Institute, argues that the tree represented god while the various branches represented his many manifestations.
volgadon Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Noted Assyriologist Simo Parpola in the book "One God or Many?: Concepts of Divinity in the Ancient World" (Transactions of the Casco Bay Assyriological Institute, argues that the tree represented god while the various branches represented his many manifestations. I can agree with that, that is what the Asherah came to mean, as well as Abraham's groves, though I think Parpola's connection to the Kabbalistic sephirot tree is premature.
elguanteloko Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 It doesn't matter much what they knew on this topic, because there are some things that never were revealed to them, which ARE revealed in these last days.So, if you don't know what the ancients knew, how do you know what is new today? 1
Ron Beron Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 I can agree with that, that is what the Asherah came to mean, as well as Abraham's groves, though I think Parpola's connection to the Kabbalistic sephirot tree is premature.I agree, but his theories on Mesopotamian makes a lot of sense especially when one considers later Plaonism and the subsequent Neoplatonism and eventual Gnostic beliefs.
etana Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 D&C 121:25-31 states: 25For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be. 26God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;27Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times,which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory; 28A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest. 29All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ. 30And also, if there be abounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars— 31All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times—****************LDS people should not be to wrapped up about the beliefs of the ancient Hebrews or over the Bible when it comes to the question of polytheism or monotheism, IMO. It doesn't matter much what they knew on this topic, because there are some things that never were revealed to them, which ARE revealed in these last days.Interesting. So according to the Lord, anyone who claims to know if there are one God or many based on all that has been revealed has had to guess because the question has not yet been answered.
jo1952 Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Interesting. So according to the Lord, anyone who claims to know if there are one God or many based on all that has been revealed has had to guess because the question has not yet been answered.If the question had been answered to the Hebrews or through the Bible in such a manner that there was physical evidence to prove the correct interpretation of teachings, then no faith would ever be required. As we can see, man has never been able to "prove" one way or the other which "belief" IS correct. I believe this was purposely designed directly into the teachings we have received from God in order that man must walk in faith. Now, we have never been left comfortless on any issues concerning God. Each individual has Truth revealed to him through the power of the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Ghost who IS the witness on the earth; NOT the Word (Jesus), nor even Father. Hebrew and Biblical teachings fall into this category as well as they can only testify; they are not living Beings. They represent written testimonies and the teachings given by God to His Prophets, the testimonies of the men who got to walk with Jesus or who were touched by Jesus for the purpose of teaching other men, and at best repeat words spoken by Jesus. Certainly man's witness falls much, much lower than any of these (here I speak of the interpretations of man); the Holy Ghost's witness is greater than man's. The witness of the Holy Ghost is received in real time, by the person who desires and believes in Christ; Spirit to spirit. With all of this in mind, I see no problem with believing that it will be in the latter days that anything not understood before these days will at last be revealed. Even with this revelation contained in D&C 121:25-31, the logic works for me, as it goes hand in hand with both Hebrew and Biblical teachings that our physical journey is one that is done in faith vs one done in "proof". When Christ returns, the entire earth will experience the actual "proof" of His existence, and all of the Truth will be revealed in physical proof. For some the truths being revealed in the flesh will merely be comfirmations of what has already been revealed to them in faith (i.e., those who have already had these truths revealed to them spiritually by the Holy Ghost). For others who never believed, it will be a surprise and a time of reckoning. For others who did believe, it will be different from what they previously expected because it was not the Holy Ghost who had revealed their beliefs to them, but rather it was the interpretations of man whom they chose to believe.At any rate, whatever was not previously revealed to the general populace of mankind (but may have been revealed to God's Prophets and Holy Men which they were not allowed to reveal), will be. The Truth is and will be whatever it truly IS; regardless of whatever man has believed to be true. Aren't we fortunate, that God, in His infinite wisdom and mercy, will count our righteousness in accordance to our faithfulness to what we believe and/or know as being true, as opposed to what actually IS? Regards,jo Edited July 22, 2011 by jo1952
Mudcat Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 LDS people should not be to wrapped up about the beliefs of the ancient Hebrews or over the Bible when it comes to the question of polytheism or monotheism, IMO. It doesn't matter much what they knew on this topic, because there are some things that never were revealed to them, which ARE revealed in these last days.Given your reference to what you hold as canon. I would ask you this. If all these previous folk were limited in knowledge and the present folk aren't limited in the same specific knowledge. Then how is God not a respecter of persons?It would seem to me that he has intentionally withheld information from one group, if such is the case.
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 Given your reference to what you hold as canon. I would ask you this. If all these previous folk were limited in knowledge and the present folk aren't limited in the same specific knowledge. Then how is God not a respecter of persons?It would seem to me that he has intentionally withheld information from one group, if such is the case.Yes, I do think God withholds certain information from certain people. I think both the Bible and the Book of Mormon attest to this fact. But just because some information is withheld from a person in this life, that does not mean that such information will forever be withheld from that person. God sees a broader picture than we mortals do.
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) So, if you don't know what the ancients knew, how do you know what is new today?Do you know what the ancients knew? Who actually DOES know what the ancients knew? Edited July 23, 2011 by Fig-bearing Thistle
elguanteloko Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Do you know what the ancients knew? Who actually DOES know what the ancients knew?I don't know and I don't care much. However, for YOUR purposes, it does matter. My question explains why.
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) I don't know and I don't care much. However, for YOUR purposes, it does matter. My question explains why.If we know some things today, it really doesn't matter for my purposes what the ancients knew or thought they knew way back when. Edited July 23, 2011 by Fig-bearing Thistle
elguanteloko Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 If we know some things today, it really doesn't matter for my purposes what the ancients knew or thought they knew way back when.Sure, but then you don't know what is new. That was my point.
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Sure, but then you don't know what is new. That was my point.Unless new scripture actually tells us that some certain knowledge is new, and I belief that scripture to be true. Then for my purposes, it is enough. Edited July 23, 2011 by Fig-bearing Thistle
elguanteloko Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Unless new scripture actually tells us that some certain knowledge is new, and I belief that scripture to be true. Then for my purposes, it is enough."For your purposes" isn't really to know... but whatever.
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 23, 2011 Author Posted July 23, 2011 "For your purposes" isn't really to know... but whatever.Sure it is. Are your purposes more "to know" than mine are? And can you prove it?
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