Breaking News - Gay Marriage Ruling

[Mordecai]

which source are you referring too, I have posted source from ADF (a christian group), Fox News, wnd news, state attorney general...

Just a rhetorical question to make a point. So what if they overtly state that they have an agenda; doesn't that at least indicate that they're being honest? Point being, look at the content of their message and not the messenger, to see if it has some value. You shouldn't poison the well, in other words.

[california boy]

Tell that to those latinos who are pulled over for looking latino.

I'm glad to see you admit that people can control how they act & that we all have weaknesses.

Sexual desire is partly inherited, but largely environmental, so a person can control what they feel by controlling what they think.

Part of the reason why church leaders have encouraged couples to keep courting, is because it helps keep those euphoric feelings of being in love - alive...

"Chemistry Lesson for Lovers"

http://www.tidesoflife.com/chemistrylessonforlovers.htm

Nobody is born with a twisted sexual desire & to say such is irresponsible.

Study after study clearly demonstrates this...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/724179/posts

Please read my previous post - where I clearly showed how religion & sexual desire are completely different.

Those who cry out "discrimination!" are often the first to discriminate... Just as CBS discriminated againsts part of an ex-homosexual's testimony that went against their agenda.

http://www.albatrus.org/english/potpourri/homosex/former_homo_says_not_born_gay.htm

I always enjoy it when someone that is straight is so sure of what it is like to be gay. They seem to be the ones that have the clearest idea why someone is gay. And they seem to know the best way that someone that is gay should act on those feelings. They also seem to think that being gay is just about sex. Of course anyone cannot have sex their whole life whether they are straight or gay. But few people think it is really healthy to go through life being celibate. "Man should not be alone" comes from the voice of God. The church is centered around people being together in family units. The whole focus of the gospel is about loving relationships and families. I have yet to read anyone that is straight think it is a great idea for them to be celebrate, live alone all their lives and be promised that in the afterlife they will be able to be with someone of the same sex for eternity.

Straight people think that the church has the perfect solution to someone who is gay. But what the church can not answer is how a gay person who say they are willing to no have ANY intimate relationships in this life is suppose to deal with the next life. I cannot think of anything more unpleasant than spending eternity with a woman. And I also know that according to Joseph Smith, those same feelings and desires we have in this life will rise with us in the next. Mormons don't believe in magic wands that change that we are just because we die.

[TAO]

I always enjoy it when someone that is straight is so sure of what it is like to be gay. They seem to be the ones that have the clearest idea why someone is gay. And they seem to know the best way that someone that is gay should act on those feelings. They also seem to think that being gay is just about sex. Of course anyone cannot have sex their whole life whether they are straight or gay. But few people think it is really healthy to go through life being celibate. "Man should not be alone" comes from the voice of God. The church is centered around people being together in family units. The whole focus of the gospel is about loving relationships and families. I have yet to read anyone that is straight think it is a great idea for them to be celebrate, live alone all their lives and be promised that in the afterlife they will be able to be with someone of the same sex for eternity.

Straight people think that the church has the perfect solution to someone who is gay. But what the church can not answer is how a gay person who say they are willing to no have ANY intimate relationships in this life is suppose to deal with the next life. I cannot think of anything more unpleasant than spending eternity with a woman. And I also know that according to Joseph Smith, those same feelings and desires we have in this life will rise with us in the next. Mormons don't believe in magic wands that change that we are just because we die.

And yet not all of it is coming from people who have always been 'straight'.

The prophets have spoken, and have said, until one is able to overcome, stay celibate. Considering that everyone will overcome... be it in this life or in the next, why do you worry?

Now... I am one of those who disagrees with others. I think that being celibate is necessary, sometimes. It is necessary for us all when God commands it. Until he commands us otherwise.

...Now let me tell you how a person with 'ssa' will have no problem being with someone of the opposite gender, in the next life. It is because... all of these feelings... are overcomable... by choice. How do I know this? Because I have done it myself. No, my feelings were probably not as intense as yours, to a degree, I had other challenges before hand, and so I knew what was happening when the inclinations came, but still... it is overcomable... by choice. Resilience and will can overcome anything, really, in terms of your own barriers, and they can overcome many things that are barriers of the world.

Ultimately, after you die, if you chose to overcome, you will... if you so choose to with all your heart. You may fail a while... but if you chose by the end... when the knowledge comes, you WILL be able to overcome it. That is how and why it is possible, and that is how and why you will be responsible for your choice. Yes, it be a difficult choice, but a choice nonetheless, a choice you must make.

Now, you might ask, why should I listen? It is because deep down inside, your heart calls to God as all men's hearts do. You will do it because of dedication to your God... or at least you might, I think.

Now, you base your condition, what you call yourself, on whom you think is attractive, but do you know, it is possible to love someone without thinking they are attractive? I have had problems with lust in the past... and I snuffed them out by refusing to let lustful thoughts enter my mind. If I feel attracted to someone I flee the thought... even today. And yet, I am currently in the process of dating somebody. I don't care if I am attracted to them, attraction isn't why I'm here. If you want to overcome, you will have to give up the idea that you will be 'attracted' to such and such women. You will find a girl who fills your heart with love and caring, not with lust and thoughts that are along those lines. That is the way to overcome, if you want it. The door is somewhat open... and much struggles lie ahead. I don't know if even God would want you to go that way... that isn't my job nor place to know. But it is there.

I don't know if you will believe what I said above, but nonetheless, that I said it, that I did. Understand it is said respectfully, and truthfully, and that I only posted because this is what matters, in the end, brother, friend.

Humble Wishes,

.

.

.

TAO

[HeatherAnn]

And yet not all of it is coming from people who have always been 'straight'.

The prophets have spoken, and have said, until one is able to overcome, stay celibate. Considering that everyone will overcome... be it in this life or in the next, why do you worry?

Now... I am one of those who disagrees with others. I think that being celibate is necessary, sometimes. It is necessary for us all when God commands it. Until he commands us otherwise.

...Now let me tell you how a person with 'ssa' will have no problem being with someone of the opposite gender, in the next life. It is because... all of these feelings... are overcomable... by choice. How do I know this? Because I have done it myself. No, my feelings were probably not as intense as yours, to a degree, I had other challenges before hand, and so I knew what was happening when the inclinations came, but still... it is overcomable... by choice. Resilience and will can overcome anything, really, in terms of your own barriers, and they can overcome many things that are barriers of the world.

Ultimately, after you die, if you chose to overcome, you will... if you so choose to with all your heart. You may fail a while... but if you chose by the end... when the knowledge comes, you WILL be able to overcome it. That is how and why it is possible, and that is how and why you will be responsible for your choice. Yes, it be a difficult choice, but a choice nonetheless, a choice you must make.

Now, you might ask, why should I listen? It is because deep down inside, your heart calls to God as all men's hearts do. You will do it because of dedication to your God... or at least you might, I think.

Now, you base your condition, what you call yourself, on whom you think is attractive, but do you know, it is possible to love someone without thinking they are attractive? I have had problems with lust in the past... and I snuffed them out by refusing to let lustful thoughts enter my mind. If I feel attracted to someone I flee the thought... even today. And yet, I am currently in the process of dating somebody. I don't care if I am attracted to them, attraction isn't why I'm here. If you want to overcome, you will have to give up the idea that you will be 'attracted' to such and such women. You will find a girl who fills your heart with love and caring, not with lust and thoughts that are along those lines. That is the way to overcome, if you want it. The door is somewhat open... and much struggles lie ahead. I don't know if even God would want you to go that way... that isn't my job nor place to know. But it is there.

I don't know if you will believe what I said above, but nonetheless, that I said it, that I did. Understand it is said respectfully, and truthfully, and that I only posted because this is what matters, in the end, brother, friend.

Humble Wishes,

.

.

.

TAO

Tao,

Thanks for sharing this... inspiring & well put.

I also, temporarily entertained homosexual thoughts. I had some bad experiences with men & I started to believe that all men were perverted jerks, so I thought, maybe women would be better. I never acted on it, but I did think about it. Most of the people I've known who had homosexual or bisexual tendencies or experiences, had been sexually abused. A councilor who had many gay clients said all of her gay clients had been sexually abused. I realize not everyone has been sexually abused. Sometimes people are curious, sometimes their inherited tendencies match up a certain way with other environmental influences.

I also believe sex is not the most important aspect of life, or relationships.

And acting on any thoughts or feelings makes them that much stronger.

Our carnal natures want to just act on impulse, without question.

Our spiritual natures want to do what is best, in the big picture.

[HeatherAnn]

... I do not know if you are LDS or not, but this is a LDS themed board, so please the Book Of Mormon Alma: 32 and learn that religion is based on "feeling". Also please see Doctrine and Covenants section 9 to learn that religion is based on feeling. Also, please see Book of Mormon Ether 12 to learn that weaknesses are given to man[kind] by God - which makes it entirely plausable to say that homosexual desire could be inborn, it is not irresponsible to "liken the scripture" unto ourselves, such likening is almost a commandment.

I use the word of God to support my statements.

Are you serious?

You want to argue for homosexuality using Mormon beliefs and scriptures?

Yes, I've been raised lds & am familiar with the doctrine & general authorities statements on homosexuality.

"As a church, our doctrinal position is clear: any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and we define marriage as between a man and a woman."

LDS authorities have been clear to condemn incorrect behavior, but to love individuals.

http://newsroom.lds.org/official-statement/same-gender-attraction

I tend to not bring scripture into this debate for fear of more scripture-hating. Yet since you brough it up & this is a Mormon forum...

The scriptures state clearly & repeatedly, that active homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God...

"Thou shalt NOT lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." - Leviticus 18:22

"The show of their countenance doth witness against them, & doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom, & they cannot hide it. Wo unto their souls, for they have rewarded evil unto themselves!" -2Nephi 13:9

"There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor sodomite of the songs of Israel." - Deuteronomy 23:17

"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, & receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." - Romans 1:27

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind." - 1Cor 6:9

"...the lawis... for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly & for sinners...For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, & if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" - 1Tim 1:9-10

"Even as Sodom & Gommorrha, & the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, & going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." -Jude 1:7

[frankenstein]

Are you serious?

You want to argue for homosexuality using Mormon beliefs and scriptures?

Yes, I've been raised lds & am familiar with the doctrine & general authorities statements on homosexuality.

"As a church, our doctrinal position is clear: any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and we define marriage as between a man and a woman."

LDS authorities have been clear to condemn incorrect behavior, but to love individuals.

http://newsroom.lds....nder-attraction

Heatherann, Please re-read the quote of mine that you used, and then revisit your post. The verses you quote have nothing to do with the point I made, which point is supported by LDS scripture.

please read

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Corinthians chapter 10, verse 13: “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

Elder Packer: "Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father."

So what is Elder Packer addressing:

1. Some suppose they were preset, AND

2. cannot overcome.

3. NOT SO!

So what is Elder Packer saying, that even if you suppose you are preset YOU CAN overcome, because God is faithful and will not lead us into temptation.

[TAO]

Frank, the difference is in how the feeling comes across. One entices us, tempts us, the other does not. That is one way (although I do not know if it is universal) that I have avoided the wrong feelings, knowing which ones come of God, and which ones do not.

[california boy]

And yet not all of it is coming from people who have always been 'straight'.

The prophets have spoken, and have said, until one is able to overcome, stay celibate. Considering that everyone will overcome... be it in this life or in the next, why do you worry?

Now... I am one of those who disagrees with others. I think that being celibate is necessary, sometimes. It is necessary for us all when God commands it. Until he commands us otherwise.

...Now let me tell you how a person with 'ssa' will have no problem being with someone of the opposite gender, in the next life. It is because... all of these feelings... are overcomable... by choice. How do I know this? Because I have done it myself. No, my feelings were probably not as intense as yours, to a degree, I had other challenges before hand, and so I knew what was happening when the inclinations came, but still... it is overcomable... by choice. Resilience and will can overcome anything, really, in terms of your own barriers, and they can overcome many things that are barriers of the world.

Ultimately, after you die, if you chose to overcome, you will... if you so choose to with all your heart. You may fail a while... but if you chose by the end... when the knowledge comes, you WILL be able to overcome it. That is how and why it is possible, and that is how and why you will be responsible for your choice. Yes, it be a difficult choice, but a choice nonetheless, a choice you must make.

Now, you might ask, why should I listen? It is because deep down inside, your heart calls to God as all men's hearts do. You will do it because of dedication to your God... or at least you might, I think.

Now, you base your condition, what you call yourself, on whom you think is attractive, but do you know, it is possible to love someone without thinking they are attractive? I have had problems with lust in the past... and I snuffed them out by refusing to let lustful thoughts enter my mind. If I feel attracted to someone I flee the thought... even today. And yet, I am currently in the process of dating somebody. I don't care if I am attracted to them, attraction isn't why I'm here. If you want to overcome, you will have to give up the idea that you will be 'attracted' to such and such women. You will find a girl who fills your heart with love and caring, not with lust and thoughts that are along those lines. That is the way to overcome, if you want it. The door is somewhat open... and much struggles lie ahead. I don't know if even God would want you to go that way... that isn't my job nor place to know. But it is there.

I don't know if you will believe what I said above, but nonetheless, that I said it, that I did. Understand it is said respectfully, and truthfully, and that I only posted because this is what matters, in the end, brother, friend.

Humble Wishes,

.

.

.

TAO

Thanks for your comments. I am glad it is working out for you. I don't have any idea what it is like to be in someone else's skin. What I do know is that I have known that I was attracted to guys since I was 12 years old. I fought all my life against this. The last thing I wanted is to be gay. I was the kid that was the deacons, teaches quorum president and assistant to the bishop when I was a priest. I never drank or smoke. I did absolutely everything God asked me to do. I served a faithful mission and was one of the youngest zone leaders in my mission. The reason I served a mission? In my mind, I thought that when I die, despite all the struggles I had, I could always tell God that I served an honorable mission as if that would counterbalance to some degree what was going inside my soul.

After my mission, I thought that if I would only get married, I would learn to like the opposite sex. I married a wonderful person, my best friend. We were married for over 25 years and raised six kids. I fasted, prayed, cried and did everything that was asked of me by God. Served in bishoprics and on the stake high counsel. But through all of this, I knew in my soul that I was living a lie. No one knew but me. I tried to live with it, but couldn't.

I waited until all my children finished high school before finally dealing with being gay. Yeah it has been hard. My family won't have much to do with me except my kids and ex-wife. But I am living with what is truth to me. And I am more happy then I have ever been since I was 12 years old. It was the right thing for me to do. I really don't want to be in the celestial kingdom with a wife forever. I know that God will have a place for me. And I know I can be Christ like to those around me. God will judge me. And that I am not afraid of. The emptiness I felt in the gospel and my life has been filled. So for me, it is not quite as simple as it seems to be for you. I wish you nothing but hope and luck in you fulfilling what God wants to you to become. I have learned through all of this that no one can judge another. And I also know that what one believes should not be forced upon others. Free agency is basic in Gods plan. What others do, should not effect my behavior nor my children's. They are strong and will find their own path no matter what anyone in our society tells them. Just because there are hookers does not mean they will become prostitutes. And just because there is gay marriage does not mean they will want to be gay. It just doesn't work that way. It is why I care about civil rights of others.

[Jaybear]

A race is not based on sexual desire, nor is a religion, although some may argue otherwise. Sexual desire is different from race or religious beliefs.

Now, do you understand the "inconsistency"?

Thanks for first grade primer, but I understand the difference between race, religion and sexual orientation.

I also understand that many people rationalize their mistreatment of gays by presuming that like religion sexual orientation is a choice, rather than immutable like race.

What I would like to understand why its acceptable to you and others to discriminate based on sexual orientation.

But we can't have a meaningful conversation, because you refuse to answer a very simple question.

This is not the fourth time you have refused to answer the question.

I already answer your question, but you ignored it. You phrased the question assuming too much, so I previously answered it taking away those assumptions.

No. You never answered the question.

No. There were no assumptions underlying the question, except perhaps that I assume you would answer the question honestly and straightforwardly.

Here it is again:

Should business be permitted to openly discriminate agaisnt homosexuals?

No assumptions. I am not asking if they can, but whether they should be permitted.

My answer is No. I don't think they should. See, that's not so hard.

You could impose your own assumption in the answer.

By example, you could say "Yes, IF providing service to a homosexual goes agaisnt their religious beliefs."

This would be awkward, because it would imply that you think discrimination is inherently wrong, but are willing to permit a religious exception to wrongful behavior.

I'll answer it again...

I believe & it is legal for businesses to refuse service.

You mean you will pretend to answer the question again.

I did not ask you for the state of the law, and I was referring specifically to denying service to gays.

Yet, if a customer requests service from them under conditions that go against their religious beliefs, establishment's mission or health considerations, IMO, they do have a right to refuse service.

Fascinating. You evade my question by presuming to tell me what the state of the law is, rather than what you think it should be, and then you get it stunningly wrong.

Contrary to your broad assertion, it is illegal for businesses to refuse service for religious reasons in some circumstances.

A restaurant owner/hotel manager that has a deeply felt religious belief that races should not intermingle, cannot refuse service to an interracial couple? In most places they can refuse service to a gay couple. In some they cannot.

A business owner who believes that Mormonism is a cult, that leads people away from Christ does not have the right to fire an employee if he finds out he/she is a mormon? In most places they can fire an employee if they find out the employee is gay. In some they cannot.

[frankenstein]

Jaybear,

It seems the consensus is, religious beliefs should prevail in the event that a prospective customers request for service would violate the business owners religious beliefs. This would mean that a Christian photographer can refuse to photograph a Mormon Candidate - as such photographs might lead others to believe the business owner supports the LDS candidate/religion, and the business can refuse to photograph a LDS couple for either a wedding or engagement as said photographs would lead others to believe the business supports the LDS wedding/religion.

[Zeta-Flux]

Jaybear,

It seems the consensus is, religious beliefs should prevail in the event that a prospective customers request for service would violate the business owners religious beliefs. This would mean that a Christian photographer can refuse to photograph a Mormon Candidate - as such photographs might lead others to believe the business owner supports the LDS candidate/religion, and the business can refuse to photograph a LDS couple for either a wedding or engagement as said photographs would lead others to believe the business supports the LDS wedding/religion.

This isn't quite what I read. I think, rather, the consensus is that one should be able to discriminate on the basis of behavior. Some people view gay marriage as a disgusting act, and photographing for it would be similar to photographing some other disgusting act.

[Jaybear]

This isn't quite what I read. I think, rather, the consensus is that one should be able to discriminate on the basis of behavior. Some people view gay marriage as a disgusting act, and photographing for it would be similar to photographing some other disgusting act.

To many, interracial marriage both a choice and a disgusting act.

Should a photographer have the right to refuse providing his service to interracial couples, if his disgust is rooted in his understanding of the bible.

Religion is a choice.

Given the growing animosity towards Muslims, should a photographer be able to refuse his services to couple because they are Muslim?

So, I think the consensus here is that businesses should be free to discriminate agaisnt gays, period.

[TAO]

Thanks for your comments. I am glad it is working out for you. I don't have any idea what it is like to be in someone else's skin. What I do know is that I have known that I was attracted to guys since I was 12 years old. I fought all my life against this. The last thing I wanted is to be gay. I was the kid that was the deacons, teaches quorum president and assistant to the bishop when I was a priest. I never drank or smoke. I did absolutely everything God asked me to do. I served a faithful mission and was one of the youngest zone leaders in my mission. The reason I served a mission? In my mind, I thought that when I die, despite all the struggles I had, I could always tell God that I served an honorable mission as if that would counterbalance to some degree what was going inside my soul.

After my mission, I thought that if I would only get married, I would learn to like the opposite sex. I married a wonderful person, my best friend. We were married for over 25 years and raised six kids. I fasted, prayed, cried and did everything that was asked of me by God. Served in bishoprics and on the stake high counsel. But through all of this, I knew in my soul that I was living a lie. No one knew but me. I tried to live with it, but couldn't.

I waited until all my children finished high school before finally dealing with being gay. Yeah it has been hard. My family won't have much to do with me except my kids and ex-wife. But I am living with what is truth to me. And I am more happy then I have ever been since I was 12 years old. It was the right thing for me to do. I really don't want to be in the celestial kingdom with a wife forever. I know that God will have a place for me. And I know I can be Christ like to those around me. God will judge me. And that I am not afraid of. The emptiness I felt in the gospel and my life has been filled. So for me, it is not quite as simple as it seems to be for you. I wish you nothing but hope and luck in you fulfilling what God wants to you to become. I have learned through all of this that no one can judge another. And I also know that what one believes should not be forced upon others. Free agency is basic in Gods plan. What others do, should not effect my behavior nor my children's. They are strong and will find their own path no matter what anyone in our society tells them. Just because there are hookers does not mean they will become prostitutes. And just because there is gay marriage does not mean they will want to be gay. It just doesn't work that way. It is why I care about civil rights of others.

My friend, neither do I know what it is like to live in another's skin, besides what they tell me and show me.

I see a person who tried... but didn't have enough hope to convince himself that he could overcome. He didn't have the resilience to believe... that he truly was not what he thought he was.

I see a person who was frustrated by his fruitless attempts... and so he gave up. Didn't you know you were supposed to endure past the end?

True... you probably were very tired. I get tired these days. But I get up... and I keep going... I run... walk... pant a bit...and then keep running. You ask, why keep running, if it's endless.

It isn't endless though. In the kingdoms of God, it ends. And you can overcome it... you just have to have the resilience to keep going. Your resilience has to be so relentless that it beats time. Time must not be able to wear it down.

Do you not also understand... the mercy God has for all the 'battles going on in your soul'. For I face them too. I know what it's like to be buffeted in that manner... temptations... feelings... everyday... never-ending. A fight which you must tire out on... and then get up to fight again. It gets old. But as the picture in my brother's room reminds me, "I never said it would be easy. I said it would be worth it." I live that life... knowing that in the end, it will be worth it... and that I can overcome... that I can do anything I want... if I will it.

You may call that self-hypnosis... and in a sense, it is. I believe I can overcome, therefore, I can overcome, and I believe I can vanquish those feelings, therefore I can vanquish those feelings.

Many times I have asked God "why me?". It is the same question I ask my psychologist about all the things I must do in order to be successful in the real world with my Autism. I ask "why was I the one who has to do these things". I have learned now though... that the reason would be pointless, even if I had it. I am the way I am right now... and all I can do, is do with what I have; change myself with my ability, and do the most I can. I cannot whine about it, nor can I complain, because those don't get anything done. I was built the way I was with reason... obscure reason... but reason enough. I was given the capability to overcome. So why do I hesitate, wondering the reason, before doing it? It is not our job to hesitate =).

I once asked God, in the temple, if homosexuality was wrong. I knew the logical reason why... procreation in this life (in the next?... to sacred to think of...). But I wondered... and still wanted to ask him. His answer... though meek and humble... was "No, it is not right". It was a merciful answer... he understands what we go through. But he does not excuse it. We must go on, I think. You may ask him for what he wants you to do, but I know which way God wants me going... in a simple "No, it is not right". It is not the way it was meant to be for me.

So no... I do not think that it is because you are 'gay', that you think you were living a lie. It is, I think, because you are unwilling to throw that part off of you. Unwilling to give it up. But we must throw off part of ourselves if we are to overcome such anyways. Not sure if you trust me on that, alas, it is what I think.

As for why I will do my best to stop what comes to pass... it is to stop the pain people must go through to overcome. It is painful... as painful as overcoming an addiction. In a sense... it is an addiction... that is how it haunts you... that is how it tries to overcome you. I doubt that people will like those words... but for me, it has seemed such. I recognized the technique it was using on my brain... and that was one way I was able to avoid the brunt of it. But I wasn't able to avoid it completely. But I was able to escape.

There are so many 'neutrals' out there... people who could go either way... and I don't want them to have to go through the pain of overcoming. Thus, I will do my best to stop this from being recognized as valid by the government... because of the pain it will cause, in the future. There are more neutrals than people know... and to have them go through what I did... that would not be the best. So rather than let them have their questions, about their own attraction be unanswered... I will answer them. For it can be overcome. With sheer will... with sheer will. Hard... but imo, totally worth it.

I see the questions in people's hearts. Their doubts... their feelings... and I know that I must answer the questions... and give them hope... or else, they will fall... just like I did.

Somber Wishes,

TAO

[TAO]

To many, interracial marriage both a choice and a disgusting act.

Should a photographer have the right to refuse providing his service to interracial couples, if his disgust is rooted in his understanding of the bible.

Yes.

Photography services are a sort of barter-trade, in a way. Indies especially.

Religion is a choice.

It is.

Given the growing animosity towards Muslims, should a photographer be able to refuse his services to couple because they are Muslim?

Yep. It may not sound nice, but again, the photographer will suffer the consequences to their business.

So, I think the consensus here is that businesses should be free to discriminate agaisnt gays, period.

No, not businesses... family/friend businesses, and individuals. And they should be free to refuse service to anybody, actually, imo.

[Jaybear]

Yep. It may not sound nice, but again, the photographer will suffer the consequences to their business.

Why would you assume his business would suffer?

Perhaps he is the only photographer in town.

Perhaps all photographers in town have the same belief.

Perhaps his antimuslim stand would bring in more business than he would lose.

This is a feel good assumption that has no historical support. Left alone the market has not prevented discrimination.

[Zeta-Flux]

To many, interracial marriage both a choice and a disgusting act.

Many? Maybe in the 50's.

Should a photographer have the right to refuse providing his service to interracial couples, if his disgust is rooted in his understanding of the bible

What does the bible have to do with it? For that matter, what does religion, per se, have to do with it? A photographer should have the right to refuse service for any behavior that photographer personally finds offensive, whether or not that viewpoint arose because of the photographer's religion.

Religion is a choice.

Yes. And sometimes it even involves behaviors.

Given the growing animosity towards Muslims, should a photographer be able to refuse his services to couple because they are Muslim?

If the photography would involve behaviors the photographer finds offensive, yes.

So, I think the consensus here is that businesses should be free to discriminate agaisnt gays, period.

Not really.

[TAO]

Why would you assume his business would suffer?

Word of mouth. It might not suffer, but in any case, he is risking it.

Perhaps he is the only photographer in town.

Photography isn't very difficult to learn =). I'm sure you could pay someone a similar amount to go learn photography and take pictures =). After all, they won't be charging as much if they haven't had alot of practice.

Perhaps all photographers in town have the same belief.

Then get one from out of town, or learn yourself.

Perhaps his antimuslim stand would bring in more business than he would lose.

Then learn how to take photography yourself.

This is a feel good assumption that has no historical support. Left alone the market has not prevented discrimination.

Your right, it does not. It discourages it, it doesn't prevent it.

If you are preventing it, you are doing the same thing, just through different means.

Thus, the idea is to discourage it, not prevent it, and so the market would work.

[Jaybear]

Many? Maybe in the 50's.

From last month:

According to a report from ABC 24 in Memphis, 46% of GOP voters said interracial marriage should be banned.

What does the bible have to do with it?

Genesis 28:1: "And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan."

Leviticus 19:19: "Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind ..."

And this:

“Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he

placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his

arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he

separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”

(Source: Virginia trial judge upholding conviction of Mildred and Richard

Loving for interracial marriage, quoted in Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 3

(1967))

If the photography would involve behaviors the photographer finds offensive, yes.

How do gays behave at weddings that is different from how hetero's behave?

[Jaybear]

Your right, it does not. It discourages it, it doesn't prevent it.

If you are preventing it, you are doing the same thing, just through different means.

Thus, the idea is to discourage it, not prevent it, and so the market would work.

You seem to think that discrimination against gays is inherently wrong.

That a start.

[Zeta-Flux]

From last month:

That is disturbing about Mississippi. I lived there for quite a while and didn't see that kind of prejudice, but maybe I just missed it.

Should a photographer have the right to refuse providing his service to interracial couples, if his disgust is rooted in his understanding of the bible?

What does the bible have to do with it?

Genesis 28:1: "And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan."

Leviticus 19:19: "Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind ..."

I think you missed my point. It was this: It is irrelevant whether or not said belief was biblical or not. It is irrelevant whether or not said belief is ill-informed or not. The relevant issues are whether the photographer believes the action is immoral, and whether government has the right to force (at the pain of losing your job) people to participate in actions they find immoral.

How do gays behave at weddings that is different from how hetero's behave?

They form a union with a person of the same gender, among other things. There is also same-gender romantic kissing, etc...

[TAO]

You seem to think that discrimination against gays is inherently wrong.

That a start.

*Shrugs* I've always believed discrimination against anybody is wrong. But so is forcing someone to do something also wrong. The idea is to balance the two.

[Jaybear]

That is disturbing about Mississippi.

I agree.

I think you missed my point. It was this: It is irrelevant whether or not said belief was biblical or not. It is irrelevant whether or not said belief is ill-informed or not. The relevant issues are whether the photographer believes the action is immoral, and whether government has the right to force (at the pain of losing your job) people to participate in actions they find immoral.

Agree again. The idea that it matters if the discrimination is rooted in the bible comes from those who seek to claim a religious exemption.

They form a union with a person of the same gender, among other things. There is also same-gender romantic kissing, etc...

I understand. Same gender, mixed race. Same idea, different hangup.

If your position is that businesses should be free to discriminate against interracial couples or gay couples, equally, I disagree of course, but I respect that you are consistent.

Though a pure libertarian philosophy is not readily consistent with Govt imposed restriction on gay marriage, and polygamy.

This is much like purported states rights advocates who support a Federal ban on gay marriage.

[Jaybear]

*Shrugs* I've always believed discrimination against anybody is wrong. But so is forcing someone to do something also wrong. The idea is to balance the two.

Like I said, that is a start.

[TAO]

Like I said, that is a start.

Or an end ;-).

[Zeta-Flux]

Agree again. The idea that it matters if the discrimination is rooted in the bible comes from those who seek to claim a religious exemption.

And my point is that there is an even bigger exemption: conscience. Religion is peripheral at best.

I understand. Same gender, mixed race. Same idea, different hangup.

I don't think I disagreed. Some people find mixed race offensive. Some people find constant swearing offensive. Some people find graphic child pornography offensive. Some people find same gender relationships offensive. Some people find walking too far on the Sabbath offensive. *shrug*

If your position is that businesses should be free to discriminate against interracial couples or gay couples, equally, I disagree of course, but I respect that you are consistent.

That is not quite my position. My position is that businesses should be able to discriminate against behaviors they find offensive, subject to some qualifications. One such qualification would be: There would need to be a rational connection between providing the service and participating in behavior which is offensive. Thus, a doctor could decline to perform an abortion (except in the case of saving the mother's life), but could not decline to help a person living in a relationship he finds offensive. Another qualification would consist of limiting behaviors to present behaviors. Another would be that government agents would need to perform the jobs guaranteed by the government (so a government clerk would need to marry a gay-couple, against his conscience, if the law required that).

But with respect to the example you gave: Yes, I would be opposed to the government preventing a photographer from taking clients according to his/her conscience (as long as the photographer had a reasonable disclaimer, etc...). This is true even in cases that I personally would find offensive on the part of the photographer (such as denying service to those who are inter-racial couples, on the basis that the photographs would be used to promote such marriages).

Though a pure libertarian philosophy is not readily consistent with Govt imposed restriction on gay marriage, and polygamy.

This is much like purported states rights advocates who support a Federal ban on gay marriage.

Good thing I'm not a pure libertarian. :-)