Why I Won’t Be Seeing the Book of Mormon Musical

[Jaybear]

I know there are plenty of people who disagree. If the state of the world is any indication though, i don't think the mocking that is so prevelant in the world is working in making it any better.

For what its worth, I think the world is a better place because of people like you who call on others to be more civil.

But at the same time, I would hate to live in a world where everyone was like you.

[Jeff K.]

Retreat?

I have not backed down one iota from defending any factual assertion I made, any rational conclusion I have drawn, or any opinion expressed.

I am simply pointing out that you have this annoying tendency to ignore what I actually write and instead attack me for arguments that I have not expressed and for position that I have not taken.

Unlike you, I have not seen the play, so I am really not in the position to defend the play, other than to note that most people who have seen the play seem to have enjoyed it.

You have obfuscated and avoided the issues, overlooked the parallels and simply ignored what was written. You can't seem to answer the questions asked of you. This is diesengenuous on your part. But I will try again...

Jeff K., on 10 May 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

Sure, and Birth of a Nation was not a high school movie, by the standards of Hollywood it was a most certainly acceptable. I suppose you celebrate its achievement whenever you can. And based on your standards, entirely acceptable.

I don't find it so. Nor do African Americans when it is played, neither should you for that matter. And yet here you are suggesting something similar is entirely "acceptable".

I haven't seen Birth of a Nation, but from what I heard I don't think that by today's standards a similar movie would be acceptable as a main stream movie production. This means that major production studios would not produce the movie, mainstream actors would not appear the movie, and mainstream theaters would not show the film, and audiences would not attend.

If your position is the play and that movie are similarly offensive, by all means present your argument.

You logic is fallacious. Birth of a Nation is a racist movie, but technically very well done and in its time, people like you found it "acceptable" because it was very well done. The technical standards do not change the moral issue. It is amazing how you can ignore a "parody" of but a few years, a "parody" in which a people were laughed at. And suddenly do the same now. It is hypocrisy pure and simple.

The play and movie are similar in their charcterizations, they are similar in their degradation of a poeple. One is slightly better technically than the other, but in the end you do the same thing to a people.

It seems you are blind to your own hypocrisy.

I am sure you will be first to sign up and see Matthew Shepard's death in a well done and technically brilliant musical comedy. I wonder if they will sing gay jokes as he dies. All "parody" of course.

I wouldn't see it. But apparently for you such things are a different story.

You replied as follows

What logic?

I expressed my opinion that by today's standards, a movie like would not be acceptable as a mainstream movie.

You agree with me, don't you?

I said, as a fact, by today standards for Broadway productions, the BOM play is acceptable.

You agree, don't you?

If not, I will note that the play just received more Tony nomination that any other Broadway play this year. That strike me as conclusive evidence that the BOM musical has been accepted by Broadway standards.

So what logical assertion have I made that you find fallacious.

By today's standards it is still deemed a great film. AFI put it in the nations top 100, the Library of Congress also deemed it so in the recent decade. So your point that by today's standards it isn't a film (something you did to avoid the issue) fails miserably. When you attempt to avoid a position of hypocrisy by narrowly and myopically sidestepping an inssue, you make that hypocrisy and your disengenuousness all the more apparent.

The Triumph of Will is also a great bitof theatre, but I won't be seeing that either.

Quote

Birth of a Nation is a racist movie, but technically very well done and in its time, people like you found it "acceptable" because it was very well done.

People like me? What does that mean? Are you implying that "people like you" would not have found it acceptable back when it was made?

No, there are standards we should adhere to. Degrading a group or religion or sexual orientation with catchy tunes and good acting is a standard we should all aspire to. You apparently feel that if society finds something acceptable, then of course it must be good. A type of very situational ethics that truly good men and women should not practice.

Quote

It seems you are blind to your own hypocrisy.

My hypocracy? I am not a purveyor of Broadway musicals. I certainly haven't passed judgement, or expressed my opinion on this play, which I have not seen, or for that matter, Birth of a Nation, which I have also not seen.

Having expressed no personal opinion on either, I don't how I am a hypocrite.

I have seen quotes from Mormons who have actually attended the play and found it entertaining. Have you seen it?

Actually you are a purveyor of this musical. You would be jumping up and down and screaming at the top of your internet lungs if a satirical broadway play of the tragic death of Matthew Shepard degraded both him and his orientation. But if it merely degrades our religion, why then, all is fine and good for you. The banality of evil is uusally found in the selective choice of victims through a cheerful curtain neglect. You write vehemently regarding the degradation of groups you believe in, and then simultaneous neglect to protect others who have the same right of protection.

Quote

I am sure you will be first to sign up and see Matthew Shepard's death in a well done and technically brilliant musical comedy. I wonder if they will sing gay jokes as he dies. All "parody" of course.

I wouldn't see it. But apparently for you such things are a different story.

You lost me at musical.

This is where you are most disengenuous. Rather than answer the question put to you in a forthright and honest way, you feign ignorance. I find that to be the worst kind of hypocrisy and in a strong sense cowardice, because you refuse to confront the double standard you are postulating in your post.

In conclusion....

Seeing a play that is technically well done, with good actors and a plot, that denigrates or defames a belief system is wrong. If the play denigrates or makes fun of a group of people, it should not be seen.

Those that attempt to justify such a play are on the same side of the coin as those who justify movies like "The Clansman" or "Birth of a Nation" and "The Will of Triumph". Such people have no real desire of empathy, merely to take an opportunity to laugh at or debase a people, belief system, or group. I find taking joy in such activities hateful, like a joke that makes fun of the one gay man or woman in the room, it is nothing more than societal bullying.

[Jeff K.]

By "anyone" you are lumping together mocking ideas and mocking people because of how they were born.

Nothing I have said should lead you to believe that I think its acceptable to mock someone because of their race, ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, or physical disabilities. Those are all immutable characteristics.

My point is simply that I don't believe that society should treat religious ideas as any more sacrosanct that philosophical ideas, political ideas, scientific ideas, mathematical ideas etc.

You mean mocking the "idea" that is part of a system of belief? The idea that is an integral part of who you are? You know, the idea of same sex attraction? And no, they are NOT immutable characteristics, some people change their orientation, some overcome disabilities, some have them cured, ethnicity or ethnic components change often when one moves to different locals and cultures, most immigrants will tell you that. You point is that as long as they make fun of a religion which you have no close affiliation with, you are fine with it. It debases the people in that religion to have it laughed at, it debases something they hold important. Again, you are fine with that. Apparently the idea of empathy has never occurred to you.

[bluebell]

For what its worth, I think the world is a better place because of people like you who call on others to be more civil.

But at the same time, I would hate to live in a world where everyone was like you.

I would love to live in a world where everyone tried to be more civil, but i would hate to live in a world where everyone was like me as well because i'm definitely not civil all of the time either.

A world where everyone could disagree without being disagreeable though? I can't think of a single reason not to hope and wish for that.

[Jeff K.]

Quote

Are we as adults so mentally stunted that we can't disagree with someone unless we can mock them to do it?

Some people, not everyone, choose to express their thoughts and ideas through mocking, ie political cartoonists, satirists. Do you think the world would be a better place without them?

Those that debase another people and their ideas? Yes the world would be a better place without many of them. I have been in countries that are intolerant beyond anything you could imagine. And they have all kinds of satire. And they turn their talents to such satire and mockery. It often becomes an excuse to see people as being less than you when you laugh at them.... "Stupid Mormons" a comment I have heard from people who have seen "satire" about Mormons. Then I have heard the same when someone referred to homosexuals in a "satirical" way. I found both offensive, I don't care how funny the joke is.

[Jaybear]

You point is that as long as they make fun of a religion which you have no close affiliation with, you are fine with it.

No, actually that was not my point.

My point was, and I will repeat it for you: "My point is simply that I don't believe that society should treat religious ideas as any more sacrosanct that philosophical ideas, political ideas, scientific ideas, mathematical ideas etc."

So do you disagree with my actual point?

[Analytics]

I think it is much more socially taboo to make fun of Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist beliefs than it is for Mormon beliefs. Yet one could argue that those religions also have many absurd beliefs. Yet somehow it has become more fashionable nowadays to make fun of Mormon beliefs, perhaps because Mormonism is a younger religion.

Are you sure? Have you seen Bruce Almighty, Life of Brian, Four Lions, The Infidel, or My Big Fat Greek Wedding? I've seen episodes of Seinfield where he makes fun of Jews, and episodes of Everybody Loves Raymond where he makes fun of Catholics. I have a joke book with an entire chapter of jokes about different religions. "Do you know why you should always invite two Baptists to go fishing with you? Because if you only invite one, he'll drink all your beer. Invite two and they won't drink any."

Mormons seem to take it a little more personal than those of other religions. Maybe they aren't used to it yet?

[Jeff K.]

No, actually that was not my point.

My point was, and I will repeat it for you: "My point is simply that I don't believe that society should treat religious ideas as any more sacrosanct that philosophical ideas, political ideas, scientific ideas, mathematical ideas etc."

So do you disagree with my actual point?

The base of your foundations and actions speak louder than your obfuscation does. A religious belief is an integral part of who we are as Latter-day Saints, I think very few saints will deny it. Just as it is for many Jews. Just as the idea that one identifies themselves with same sex attraction is a part of who they are.

Remember that the best way to de humanize something is to laugh at them. Political ideas are indeed distinct since they are already "not human". But belief systems are indeed a part of us and how we see the world. When the Westboro Baptists choose to scream out their vile statements in a funeral, they do indeed attack an integral part of the individual who has chosen to leave this world in a proscribed way, because that is who they are, that is their last act. Those people in effect dehumanized a very important aspect in their lives.

You cannot separate a sincere man or woman from their religion and say it is just an idea. By that same construct gay rights are just an idea and they in my opinion are of a serious matter and should not be degraded anymore than the idea of gay men being allowed to have certain ideas as to how they live should be bestialized or warped for for some cheap laughs. Debated and debated seriously yes. But not denigrated.

[Analytics]

Are you sure? Have you seen Bruce Almighty, Life of Brian, Four Lions, The Infidel, or My Big Fat Greek Wedding? I've seen episodes of Seinfield where he makes fun of Jews, and episodes of Everybody Loves Raymond where he makes fun of Catholics. I have a joke book with an entire chapter of jokes about different religions. "Do you know why you should always invite two Baptists to go fishing with you? Because if you only invite one, he'll drink all your beer. Invite two and they won't drink any."

Mormons seem to take it a little more personal than those of other religions. Maybe they aren't used to it yet?

A Jew making fun of Christianity:

Making fun of Jews, Catholics, and those offended by religious jokes:

[Jeff K.]

Are you sure? Have you seen Bruce Almighty, Life of Brian, Four Lions, The Infidel, or My Big Fat Greek Wedding? I've seen episodes of Seinfield where he makes fun of Jews, and episodes of Everybody Loves Raymond where he makes fun of Catholics. I have a joke book with an entire chapter of jokes about different religions. "Do you know why you should always invite two Baptists to go fishing with you? Because if you only invite one, he'll drink all your beer. Invite two and they won't drink any."

Mormons seem to take it a little more personal than those of other religions. Maybe they aren't used to it yet?

I walked out of Bruce Almighty, and regret having watched "The Life of Brian". You seem to think that a lack of response, or a judicious response, or no response is the equivalent of acceptance. It isn't, not by Jews, Catholics, African Americans or Gay men and women.

[Jeff K.]

Would the world be a better place if we didn't make fun of people's religious beliefs or of what other people hold sacred or important?

[Jaybear]

Jaybear Earlier:

My point was, and I will repeat it for you: "My point is simply that I don't believe that society should treat religious ideas as any more sacrosanct that philosophical ideas, political ideas, scientific ideas, mathematical ideas etc."

So do you disagree with my actual point?

The base of your foundations and actions speak louder than your obfuscation does. {....blah blah blah]

Is that a yes? You think religious beliefs and ideas deserve greater protections that other ideas?

[Jaybear]

Would the world be a better place if we didn't make fun of people's religious beliefs or of what other people hold sacred or important?

Some people think so. In fact, that is the idea behind blasphemy laws in places like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afganistan, Iran, etc.

Personally, I don't think so.

[Analytics]

I walked out of Bruce Almighty, and regret having watched "The Life of Brian". You seem to think that a lack of response, or a judicious response, or no response is the equivalent of acceptance. It isn't, not by Jews, Catholics, African Americans or Gay men and women.

Not at all. Sky had said, I think it is much more socially taboo to make fun of Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist beliefs than it is for Mormon beliefs.

My point is that the entertainment industry does plenty to make fun of those groups too, and mainstream society accepts those spoofs more or less just as well as it accepts the Book of Mormon play. I don't think society singles-out Mormons for jokes the way Sky thinks. That's my point.

Would the world be a better place if we didn't make fun of people's religious beliefs or of what other people hold sacred or important?

I think the world would be a better place if we didn't take ourselves so seriously. I agree with "The Scroll Marked VII" from The Greatest Salesman in the World:

I will laugh at the world.

No living creature can laugh except humans. Trees may bleed when they are wounded, and beasts in the field will cry in pain and hunger, yet only I have the gift of laughter and it is mine to use whenever I choose. Henceforth I will cultivate the habit of laughter.

I will smile and my digestion will improve; I will chuckle and my burdens will be lightened; I will laugh and my life will be lengthened for this is the great secret of long life and now it is mine.

I will laugh at the world.

And most of all, I will laugh at myself for humans are most comical when we take ourselves too seriously....

I will laugh at the world.

And with my laughter all things will be reduced to their proper size. I will laugh at my failures and they will vanish in clouds of new dreams. I will laugh at my successes and they will shrink to their true value. I will laugh at evil and it will die untasted; I will laugh at goodness and it will thrive and abound.

[Jeff K.]

Some people think so. In fact, that is the idea behind blasphemy laws in places like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afganistan, Iran, etc.

Personally, I don't think so.

The nationalist socialist party agrees with you, that is how it started in the 1930's.

The Lord on the other hand disagrees with you.

I personally think you confuse respect with punishment.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 11 May 2011 - 11:06 AM, said:

I walked out of Bruce Almighty, and regret having watched "The Life of Brian". You seem to think that a lack of response, or a judicious response, or no response is the equivalent of acceptance. It isn't, not by Jews, Catholics, African Americans or Gay men and women.

Not at all. Sky had said, I think it is much more socially taboo to make fun of Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist beliefs than it is for Mormon beliefs.

My point is that the entertainment industry does plenty to make fun of those groups too, and mainstream society accepts those spoofs more or less just as well as it accepts the Book of Mormon play. I don't think society singles-out Mormons for jokes the way Sky thinks. That's my point.

The "entertainment industry" has a nice name to it, but it also includes pornography, sadism, and even kiddie porn. It does not legitimize the act. There are many societies where mainstream includes mutilation of people. Again, mainstream does not equal legitimization. Nor of course does a society whose mainstream include lynch mobs.

Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't make it right.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 11 May 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

Would the world be a better place if we didn't make fun of people's religious beliefs or of what other people hold sacred or important?

I think the world would be a better place if we didn't take ourselves so seriously. I agree with "The Scroll Marked VII" from The Greatest Salesman in the World:

It would probably be a beter place if we did take ourselves more seriously, what we did and how we hurt people and what they might hold sacred. Og Mandino would not take part in the denigration of another religion. I suggest you read the book sometime to understand its content.

[Daniel2]

Jeff K,

You seem to think that many who don't mind the humor found in The Book of Mormon Musical would be offended or against humor at something we may hold sacred.

Most Mormons I know in person are able to laugh at themselves and find humor at many aspects of Mormonism.

Most gay men that I know are able to laugh at themselves and find humor in many aspects of homosexuality.

Many black individuals I know are able to laugh at themselves and find humor in many aspects of racism.

The fact that you don't find humor attractive doesn't make everyone else's willingness to find humor in grim or challenging circumstances to be universally deplorable.

The words of a song from Avenue Q come to mind:

Princeton:

Say, Kate, can I ask you a question?

Kate Monster:

Sure!

Princeton:

Well, you know Trekkie Monster upstairs?

Kate Monster:

Uh huh.

Princeton:

Well, he's Trekkie Monster, and you're Kate Monster.

Kate Monster:

Right.

Princeton:

You're both Monsters.

Kate Monster:

Yeah.

Princeton:

Are you two related?

Kate Monster:

What?! Princeton, I'm surprised at you! I find that racist!

Princeton:

Oh, well, I'm sorry! I was just asking!

Kate Monster:

Well, it's a touchy subject.

No, not all Monsters are related.

What are you trying say, huh?

That we all look the same to you?

Huh, huh, huh?

Princeton:

No, no, no, not at all. I'm sorry,

I guess that was a little racist.

Kate Monster:

I should say so. You should be much more

careful when you're talking about the

sensitive subject of race.

Princeton:

Well, look who's talking!

Kate Monster:

What do you mean?

Princeton:

What about that special Monster School you told me about?

Kate Monster:

What about it?

Princeton:

Could someone like me go there?

Kate Monster:

No, we don't want people like you-

Princeton:

You see?!

You're a little bit racist.

Kate Monster:

Well, you're a little bit too.

Princeton:

I guess we're both a little bit racist.

Kate Monster:

Admitting it is not an easy thing to do...

Princeton:

But I guess it's true.

Kate Monster:

Between me and you,

I think

Both:

Everyone's a little bit racist

Sometimes.

Doesn't mean we go

Around committing hate crimes.

Look around and you will find

No one's really color blind.

Maybe it's a fact

We all should face

Everyone makes judgments

Based on race.

Princeton:

Now not big judgments, like who to hire

or who to buy a newspaper from -

Kate Monster:

No!

Princeton:

No, just little judgments like thinking that Mexican

busboys should learn to speak ***d*** English!

Kate Monster:

Right!

Both:

Everyone's a little bit racist

Today.

So, everyone's a little bit racist

Okay!

Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,

But you laugh because

They're based on truth.

Don't take them as

Personal attacks.

Everyone enjoys them -

So relax!

Princeton:

All right, stop me if you've heard this one.

Kate Monster:

Okay!

Princeton:

There's a plan going down and there's only

one paracute. And there's a rabbi, a priest...

Kate Monster:

And a black guy!

Gary Coleman:

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Kate?

Kate Monster:

Uh...

Gary Coleman:

You were telling a black joke!

Princeton:

Well, sure, Gary, but lots of people tell black jokes.

Gary Coleman:

I don't.

Princeton:

Well, of course you don't - you're black!

But I bet you tell Polack jokes, right?

Gary Coleman:

Well, sure I do. Those stupid Polacks!

Princeton:

Now, don't you think that's a little racist?

Gary Coleman:

Well, damn, I guess you're right.

Kate Monster:

You're a little bit racist.

Gary Coleman:

Well, you're a little bit too.

Princeton:

We're all a little bit racist.

Gary Coleman:

I think that I would

Have to agree with you.

Princeton/Kate Monster:

We're glad you do.

Gary Coleman:

It's sad but true!

Everyone's a little bit racist -

All right!

Kate Monster:

All right!

Princeton:

All right!

Gary Coleman:

All right!

Bigotry has never been

Exclusively white

All:

If we all could just admit

That we are racist a little bit,

Even though we all know

That it's wrong,

Maybe it would help us

Get along.

Princeton:

Oh, Christ do I feel good.

Gary Coleman:

Now there was a fine upstanding black man!

Princeton:

Who?

Gary Coleman:

Jesus Christ.

Kate Monster:

But, Gary, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman:

No, Jesus was black.

Kate Monster:

No, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman:

No, I'm pretty sure that Jesus was black-

Princeton:

Guys, guys...Jesus was Jewish!

Brian:

Hey guys, what are you laughing about?

Gary Coleman:

Racism!

Brian:

Cool.

Christmas Eve:

BRIAN! Come back here!

You take out lecycuraburs!

Princeton:

What's that mean?

Brian:

Um, recyclables.

Hey, don't laugh at her!

How many languages do you speak?

Kate Monster:

Oh, come off it, Brian!

Everyone's a little bit racist.

Brian:

I'm not!

Princeton:

Oh no?

Brian:

Nope!

How many Oriental wives

Have you got?

Christmas Eve:

What? Brian!

Princeton:

Brian, buddy, where you been?

The term is Asian-American!

Christmas Eve:

I know you are no

Intending to be

But calling me Oriental -

Offensive to me!

Brian:

I'm sorry, honey, I love you.

Christmas Eve:

And I love you.

Brian:

But you're racist, too.

Christmas Eve:

Yes, I know.

The Jews have all

The money

And the whites have all

The power.

And I'm always in taxi-cab

With driver who no shower!

Princeton:

Me too!

Kate Monster:

Me too!

Gary Coleman:

I can't even get a taxi!

All:

Everyone's a little bit racist

It's true.

But everyone is just about

As racist as you!

If we all could just admit

That we are racist a little bit,

And everyone stopped being

So PC

Maybe we could live in -

Harmony!

Christmas Eve:

Evlyone's a ritter bit lacist!

My view,

Darin

[Analytics]

It would probably be a beter place if we did take ourselves more seriously, what we did and how we hurt people and what they might hold sacred. Og Mandino would not take part in the denigration of another religion. I suggest you read the book sometime to understand its content.

I seriously doubt Mandino would take your side on this argument. Speaking of Scroll VII, he said in a subsequent book,

Apparently there are a tremendous number of non-laughers out there because, since The Greatest Salesman in the World was published I have probably received more mail concerning The Scroll Marked VII, than any other, with most of the remarks directed at the scroll’s specific injunction to start laughing at yourself.

Sammy Davis was once asked to define success, I’ll never forget his answer: “I don’t know what success is, but I know what failure is. Failure is trying to please everybody.”

If you’re trying to please everybody, and you’ve forgotten how to laugh at others, and yourself, now is the time to learn how to say “to heck with in.” Stop taking others, and yourself, too seriously. You are a miracle of nature but that doesn’t mean you were put here to be a sourpuss.

I suggest you read scroll VII every morning, noon, and out-loud at night, for thirty days.

[Walden]

Mormons seem to take it a little more personal than those of other religions. Maybe they aren't used to it yet?

I think this is related to the "persecution complex" that seems to be more prevalent among mormons than other religions. If you don't support the church, you must be an "anti". The church benefits from the attitude that "you are either with us or you are against us."

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K,

You seem to think that many who don't mind the humor found in The Book of Mormon Musical would be offended or against humor at something we may hold sacred.

Most Mormons I know in person are able to laugh at themselves and find humor at many aspects of Mormonism.

Most gay men that I know are able to laugh at themselves and find humor in many aspects of homosexuality.

Many black individuals I know are able to laugh at themselves and find humor in many aspects of racism.

The fact that you don't find humor attractive doesn't make everyone else's willingness to find humor in grim or challenging circumstances to be universally deplorable.

The words of a song from Avenue Q come to mind:

My view,

Darin

I don't hold myself to be sacred, there is nothing wrong at laughing at one's self. It is entirely different when one denigrates a religion or something held sacred. Unless of course you believe Latter-day Saints do not hold their religion to be sacred.

I hold my religion to be sacred, I hold my faith to be sacred, I hold sacred the respect of the individuals I deal with, and I have empathy and understanding that some of their thoughts they hold sacred. I would not undermine such things with a crass disregard of what they hold important.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 11 May 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

It would probably be a beter place if we did take ourselves more seriously, what we did and how we hurt people and what they might hold sacred. Og Mandino would not take part in the denigration of another religion. I suggest you read the book sometime to understand its content.

I seriously doubt Mandino would take your side on this argument. Speaking of Scroll VII, he said in a subsequent book,

Then you do not know the context of his books. He would never make fun of a religion, indeed of his many articles and books he never has. I think he would be chagrined that you would use his work to undermine the sacredness of anothers belief system.

[Analytics]

Then you do not know the context of his books. He would never make fun of a religion, indeed of his many articles and books he never has. I think he would be chagrined that you would use his work to undermine the sacredness of anothers belief system.

Are you suggesting that just because he wrote of spiritual and religious things that he didn't really mean what he said about laughing at the world, including yourself, others, success, failure, evil, and goodness?

I'm not "undermining the sacredness" of anybody's belief system, and I'm not "using" his work for that, or any other, purpose. All I said is that I agree with what that chapter says. I'm sorry you find this offsenive, but I will continue to follow his advise. I will laugh at the world.

[Sky]

When it comes to making fun of all things Mormon, I seem to have noticed a pattern: devout Mormons don’t generally enjoy seeing themselves and their religion being ridiculed (and why should they? Who does?)

I’m sorry, but essentially being told that you are a nice person, but your religion is bogus doesn’t quite cut the mustard for me.

Whereas many lapsed-Mormons and anti-Mormons seem to thoroughly enjoy it and have the attitude of what’s the big deal? Don’t take yourselves so seriously. Get over your persecution complex. Laugh a little. Your beliefs are ridiculous and foolish anyway.

Don’t get me wrong – I’m all for a good laugh. But when does it start to cross over from being a good-natured laugh into mocking, bigoted scorn? I think there is a huge grey area there, and different people will have different ideas about when that line has been crossed.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 11 May 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:

Then you do not know the context of his books. He would never make fun of a religion, indeed of his many articles and books he never has. I think he would be chagrined that you would use his work to undermine the sacredness of anothers belief system.

Are you suggesting that just because he wrote of spiritual and religious things that he didn't really mean what he said about laughing at the world, including yourself, others, success, failure, evil, and goodness?

I'm not "undermining the sacredness" of anybody's belief system, and I'm not "using" his work for that, or any other, purpose. All I said is that I agree with what that chapter says. I'm sorry you find this offsenive, but I will continue to follow his advise. I will laugh at the world.

What I am saying is that if you believe that somehow Og Mandino, based on his writings laughed at the Jewish religion, or any other religion, you have completely misinterpreted what he was trying to say and do. You are using the phrase "laugh at the world" to mean "ridicule the world" which is something he did not desire anyone to do. I suggest you reread for greater context in the future. You cannot agree with what you do not understand, either in the chapter or the gist of his works.

And yes, you do undermine the sacredness of other people. When you advocate ridiculing a religion or group of people or other orientation you in effect are stating that their feelings as to the sacredness are unimportant to you, that you care little for them because you consider their feelings less important than your own entertainment.