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3 Nephi Vs 8


Guest Just Curious

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Guest Just Curious
17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.

Does anyone know of any historical factual documentation to back up this. I am not aware of the whole earth having this

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17 And thus the face of the whole earth

Does anyone know of any historical factual documentation to back up this. I am not aware of the whole earth having this

I'm quite certain it's a relative geographical description. You often hear people in places like Iran, where they have earthquakes which kill thousands, describing it as "the end of the world", or "the whole earth shook and swallowed us up".

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Context Context Context.

I would not put it past the writer if he was speaking relatively. I mean he had no way to get in an airplane and go over to Jerusalem to verify that they had been rocked by a magnatude 9.9 earthquake.

Morm. 8: 12

12 And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you

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One could argue the same for the great flood. Is there absolute scientific evidence that the whole entire Earth was covered with water at this time, or was it the whole Earth as far as Noah was concerned?

Perception is key. I could poison the waters of an aquarium, look at all of the dead fish and plants and say, "I have destroyed all life in this aquarium." Now if one were to examine the water under a microscope one might find protists, bacteria, etc. that were still alive. All life was not destroyed, but to my eyes it appeared so.

Until . . .

Lux

[edit: added "and"]

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And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.  [Luke 2:1]

Augustus was much too savvy to have invited the Persians and the Chinese -- or even the Germanic tribes of Scandinavia, the Picts of Scotland, or the ancient Irish -- to pay taxes to him. He wasn't savvy enough to have demanded taxes from the Japanese, the Maya, the Hawaiians, the Tibetans, and the Congolese. Augustus, a competent and realistic ruler, sought to collect taxes from all of those who were subject to him. Which, though many, wasn't exactly "all the world." It wasn't even all the known world.

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You said :One could argue the same for the great flood. Is there absolute scientific evidence that the whole entire Earth was covered with water at this time, or was it the whole Earth as far as Noah was concerned?

It was the WHOLE ENTIRE EARTH. common sense would tell you this, because if it were not the whole entire earth. God would have told noah just to move up to higher ground with all the animels. Seems simple logic to me. Rick b.

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I suspect it depends on which scientists you read and believe and which evidences you are willing to entertain. But your reading your modern literalism back onto an ancient text (the Bible or Book of Mormon) is what is unconvincing to us Rick. Since when did God have to correlate to our logical understandings of things?

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Guest Just Curious

You who claim this was only a part of the earth are wrong. Go read 3NE8 again...he specifically says whole earth at times and other times he says "land" so if you are saying he is interchanging "whole earth" with a term to refer to localized land area, then he would have remained constant stating that from beginning to end rather than putting "whole earth" in some places and "land" in others. Certainly Joseph knew the difference between the "whole earth" and a smaller more geographically specific parcel of land......didn't he?

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This type of anti-Mormon argumentation is both silly pointless.

It tends to go as follows:

1- The BOM says X.

2- Anti-Mormons interpret X as X-1, which creates a problem

3- Mormons interpret X as X-2, which creates a rational, consistent and coherent explanation.

4- Anti-Mormons respond that it cannot be X-2 but must be X-1. Mormons who interpret it as X-2 are ignorant and deceitful.

Thus their argument becomes cogent only if we insist on interpreting the BOM with a presupposition which privileges overtly hostile interpretations which create unnecessary (and non-existent) contradictions or problems.

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Is Reformed Egyptian a form of Greek?

And you know this because the word World on the gold plates is taken from the... um... er... nevermind...

Asking rhetorical questions should never be confused with evidence or argumentation.

As Mormons tirelessly try to point out, Reformed Egyptian is a SCRIPT ("characters"), not a LANGUAGE (Morm 9.32).

The BOM is written in a Jacobean-style language (that is to say, it is semantically related to KJV English). Hence, the first place to seek for the meaning of BOM words is KJV-style English.

The original text of the BOM is also linguistically related to Hebrew (Morm 9.33).

In the KJV, the phrase "the whole earth" invariably translates the Hebrew "kal ha-aretz," which literally means "all the land" (cf. eretz yisra'el = "land of Israel).

The phrase "the whole earth//kal ha-aretz" is used in Ex 10.15 to describe the plague of locusts: "they covered the face of the whole earth." The text here clearly is not attempting to describe "the entire planet" as understood in the early twenty-first century, since it explictly states several times that the plague of locusts was sent upon "the land of Egypt" (eretz mitzraim) = Ex 10.12 (x2), 10.13, 10.14, 10.15.

Clearly "the whole earth//kal ha-aretz//all the land" does not necessarily mean "the entire planet" as anti-Mormons insist.

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You who claim this was only a part of the earth are wrong. Go read 3NE8 again...he specifically says whole earth at times and other times he says "land" so if you are saying he is interchanging "whole earth" with a term to refer to localized land area, then he would have remained constant stating that from beginning to end rather than putting "whole earth" in some places and "land" in others. Certainly Joseph knew the difference between the "whole earth" and a smaller more geographically specific parcel of land......didn't he?

You're really stretching for this one, Just Curious.

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Unable to see the importance of Greek in plumbing philological questions related to the BOM, Kozaru asks rhetorically "Is Reformed Egyptian a form of Greek?"

Greek is the other half of the semantic puzzle for the Bible, and hence the linguistic framework within which the BOM needs to be understood. The Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible is a crucial supplement to our understanding of the world views of antiquity, and the conceptual link between the Hebrew Bible and the Greek NT. For example:

Eretz in Hebrew means

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Does anyone know of any historical factual documentation to back up this. I am not aware of the whole earth having this

The same question could be asked of the same experience in the New Testament

(Matthew 27:50-51.)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Is their any

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The original text of the BOM is also linguistically related to Hebrew (Morm 9.33).

So, you claim that the plates were written in a language related to Hebrew. You go on to site Morm 9.33 as the reference for this claim. A better example of circular logic could be found in this:

Koz 1:13 I, Kozaru, am the one true God.

Koz 1:14 This verse is divinely inspired!

If you have any doubt that I am the one true God, please take a look at Koz 1:14 :P

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So, you claim that the plates were written in a language related to Hebrew.  You go on to site Morm 9.33 as the reference for this claim.  A better example of circular logic could be found in this:

Koz 1:13 I, Kozaru, am the one true God.

Koz 1:14 This verse is divinely inspired!

If you have any doubt that I am the one true God, please take a look at Koz 1:14  :P

You're correct that your comments about Koz 1:13-14 are an excellent example of "circular logic." Professor Hamblin's remark about the original language of the Book of Mormon, however, is not.

It's not logically circular to determine what a text says about itself by consulting what the text has to say about itself.

The starting point for the investigation of any text surely has to be an examination of what it has to say regarding itself. One might ultimately reject its self-description, but your perception of circularity here is misguided and unreasonable.

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Acts 2:5:

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Does anyone know of any historical factual documentation to back up this. I am not aware of, say, any evidence of Japanese or ethnic Han or Taiwanese Yuan Zhu Min living in Jerusalem in 33 A.D.

-Smac

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You who claim this was only a part of the earth are wrong.

Tell ya what, Just Curious: How about you and rick_b get together and figure out this Noah's flood/all the world taxed/the whole earth Exodus 10.15 thing. As soon as you have your answer, you can use the same answer for 3Nephi.

It looks like these are your choices:

1) They really didn't mean the whole earth/all the world.

2) Yes, they really did mean the whole earth/all the world, and I believe it too, despite the total lack of any scientific evidence to support it.

In other words, clean up your own theological back yard before you go flickin' boogies at mine.

Hugs and kisses,

Wunna

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You're correct that your comments about Koz 1:13-14 are an excellent example of "circular logic." Professor Hamblin's remark about the original language of the Book of Mormon, however, is not.

Professor Peterson,

I'm sorry to bother you over such trivialities, but I must confess that I am utterly confounded by Kozaru's latest claim. Is there some esoteric meaning to his message I have missed, or is it merely, as it appears, that Kozaru has no understanding whatsoever of logic and historical reasoning?

Sincerely,

Professor Hamblin cool.gif

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I cautiously lean toward the view that Kozaru might have some problem with at least the concept of "circular reasoning." Alternatively, perhaps he was spoofing us.

Dear Professor Peterson,

Thank Goodness!

For a minute there I thought Kozaru was proclaiming his self-deification.

Sincerely

Professor Hamblin

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Unable to see the importance of Greek in plumbing philological questions related to the BOM, Kozaru asks...(snip)
...it appears, that Kozaru has no understanding whatsoever of logic and historical reasoning?

ad hominem.

Let's back up. I want to understand the importance of Greek as it is related to the Book of Mormon. We all know yourself and Dr. Peterson are well versed in languages. Bravi! Now, let us examine the original question that Just Curious had concerning the usage of the phrase "whole earth" as it is used in the BOM.

The whole World is the Greek (t
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ad homenem.

Actually, it would be ad hominem, if it were ad hominem.

I want to understand the importance of Greek as it is related to the Book of Mormon.

The point, I suppose, is simply that the authors of the scriptures typically didn't refer to the whole planet, even when, to modern eyes and ears unaccustomed to ancient cultures and ancient languages, it can sometimes seem so -- at first uncareful glance. This becomes completely clear when one examines, where possible, the relevant terms in their original language(s). ScriptureLover did this for the Greek Testament. Professor Hamblin did it for the Hebrew Bible.

Now, let us examine the original question that
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