North American Metallurgy

[bookofmormontruth]

bookofmormontruth, I think it is wonderful that you are looking for evidences all across the Americas, and not limiting it any area. Your open mindedness is a breath of fresh air. It is good to have someone who is not bias to any theory look for evidence across the entire continent, which will help in discovering the area where The Book of Mormon took place.

Thank you for the kind words.

I would love to see that discovery and the discoveries that lead to it. I also believe in the possibility that it will never happen for the Book of Mormon is litmus test for the world for a reason.

[livy111us]

Here is a list of statements of geography made in Joseph Smiths day:

http://www.bmaf.org/node/381

and an excellent article by Matthew Roper on Book of Mormon geography:

http://www.bmaf.org/node/385

At the end of the article, he uses wordprint studies to show that the Sept/Oct 1842 Times and Seasons articles, which spend a lot of time placing the BOM in Central America, matches more closely to Joseph Smith than to the others who took part in the editing of Times and Seasons.

[Sevenbak]

Where did he say that? If you don't mind.

A few places, as I recall. I'll try to dig some of them up, but I'm out of town in NY for the rest of the week. I do know he said one of their main cities was in Wisconsin.

[Sevenbak]

I voted no. I assumed the poll meant during the same time period for the Book of Mormon. I based my no vote on there is a lot of evidence for metal work but none that I know for smelting. I know the Hopewell and Adena culture and in some aspect the Clovis had only cold hammered artifacts.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how they cold hammered all that "meteoric" iron that showed up in the mounds and trenches ...

[Sevenbak]

Cold hammering iron breastplates! Now there's something I'd like to see.

BTW, Moorehead wasn't just some fly by the seat of his pants amateur. He was the founding curator of the Peabody Museum. Anyone know of or have heard of the whereabouts of these iron breastplates?

http://books.google.com/books?id=7DNLDlbQXaYC&lpg=PA358&ots=9_MCeiTepL&dq=hopewell%20mass%20graves&pg=PR2#v=onepage&q=hopewell%20mass%20graves&f=false

[Anijen]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how they cold hammered all that "meteoric" iron that showed up in the mounds and trenches ...

Well let me help you, this is from the very first book the Smithsonian had published and since that time no evidence has been found to contradict this. Current archeologist has not changed from this view of the Hopewell tradition;

"In none of the articles found is there evidence of welding, nor do any of them appear to have been cast in moulds. On the contrary, they seem to have been hammered out of rude masses, and gradually and with great labor brought into the required shape. The lamination, resulting from hammering the baser metals while cold."

The mound-builders were acquainted with several of the metals, although they do not seem to have possessed the art of reducing them from the ores. The ore of lead, galena, has been discovered in

considerable quantities, but none of the metal has been found under such circumstances as to establish conclusively that they were acquainted with the art of smelting it.

The copper and silver found in the mounds were doubtless obtained in their native state, and afterwards worked without the intervention of fire, Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley Squires and Davis Pg. 197

[bookofmormontruth]

I'm still not sure what you mean when you say "Evidence for metallurgy in North America." Are you suggesting that there is evidence for mining, smelting, and refining metals in North America? If so, I would be very interested in seeing that evidence. While the Mann Hopewell site is very important and interesting, the evidence for lead smelting given in the NPR article you linked to consists of the following statement:

I am no expert and I am not qualified to answer that question.

Do I believe the ancient peoples of North America had the technology for metallurgy? Yes indeed! As I pointed out, the technology really isn't that "advanced" to use compared to our "current" standards.

I also believe that there is no "slam dunk" evidence to support any of this. And even if there was, I believe it would be discounted the same way it has been for the last hundreds of years based on a bias that the ancients were not "civilized" or "advanced" in any way. Or even the bias in our own culture.

This anthropologist believes they used metallurgy, she evens goes as far to describe it as "spectacular" in the introduction.

My link

And the earlier link. My link

So who are we to believe and trust? In my own profession, I listen, investigate and learn from my mentors and the experts in the field, but ultimately form my own opinion that is sometimes in complete contrast to the "standard". "Science" is not set in stone in any profession.

I await the results of these studies with anticipation, but at this point, all we know is that an investigation into lead smelting has been initiated at this site.

I also await with anticipation.

My question: why do LDS folks and scholars discount North America so quickly? Maybe a "model" doesn't seem to fit, but if evidence for the Book of Mormon is found and verified, do we disregard it because it is not found in Meso-America?

[Anijen]

Cold hammering iron breastplates! Now there's something I'd like to see.

BTW, Moorehead wasn't just some fly by the seat of his pants amateur. He was the founding curator of the Peabody Museum. Anyone know of or have heard of the whereabouts of these iron breastplates?

http://books.google.com/books?id=7DNLDlbQXaYC&lpg=PA358&ots=9_MCeiTepL&dq=hopewell%20mass%20graves&pg=PR2#v=onepage&q=hopewell%20mass%20graves&f=false

I agree. It would take a lot of time and patience but that is how it was done. I highly doubt that the image in the book in your last post say any of these were smelted? I never said anything about Moorehead, I am sure he was capable.

[Sevenbak]

Well let me help you, this is from the very first book the Smithsonian had published and since that time no evidence has been found to contradict this. Current archeologist has not changed from this view of the Hopewell tradition;

Hi Anijen. Everything I've read on the nature of meteoric iron tells me it's brittle, and can't be pounded flat or folded without it breaking. Then there's the question of what they pounded it with with. More iron?

Here's some more samples of "meteoric" iron implements found.

1. Copper earspools, one outer plate of which is plated with meteoric iron. (Hopewell, Marriott 1).

2. Copper earspools, one side of which is covered with silver, the other with copper, while the body is made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

3. Copper earspools, both outer plates of which are covered with meteoric-iron overlay. (Hopewell, Harness, Fort Ancient, Turner, Porter).

4. Earspools made entirely of meteoric iron. (Porter, Turner). 5. Awls made of meteoric iron. (Seip 1, Hopewell). 6. Cylindrical beads of rolled meteoric-iron sheeting. (Seip 1, Turner,

Mound City). 7. Beads made of small marine shells covered with copper sheeting which

in turn is covered with meteoric iron. (Mound City). 8. Hemispherical clay, wood, or sandstone buttons covered with meteoric-iron

sheeting. (Hopewell, Seip 1, Mound City). 9. Buttons consisting of small hemispheres covered with meteoric iron and

set in sheet-copper settings. (Harness). 10. So-called "ceremonial" solid, rounded cones of meteoric iron. (Hopewell). 11. Fragments of meteoric-iron sheeting suggestive of plain headdresses

similar to the classic Hopewell copper "helmets." (Turner, Hopewell). 12. Triple conjoined tubes or pan-pipes made of meteoric iron. (Turner).

13. 14. 15. 16. Curved chisels of meteoric iron imitating beaver incisors in shape.

18. 19. 20.

Small boat-shaped hollow objects of meteoric iron. (Seip 1). Small disc-shaped sheets of meteoric iron. (Harness). Slate cone plated with meteoric-iron foil. (Tremper).

Axe made of meteoric iron. (Harness). Adze made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell). Small straight-sided chisel made of meteoric iron. (Hopewell).

(Hopewell). 17. Small meteoric-iron drill stuck in a pearl bead which it was used to

perforate. (Hopewell).

21. Human ulna banded and partly covered with meteoric-iron sheeting. (Hopewell).

22. Ball of meteoric iron set into hollowed bear canine tooth. (Seip 2). 23. "Nuggets" of meteoric iron. (Turner, Campbell, Hopewell, Marietta).

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/4817/V61N06_341.pdf?sequence=1

Iron overlays over copper, using only cold pounding, the harder metal over the softer? That is quite a skill!

I give these people much more credit than modern experts who think they were so limited in their technologies. I believe one day we will all be surprised at how many great ancient civilizations accomplished what they did.

[bookofmormontruth]

A few places, as I recall. I'll try to dig some of them up, but I'm out of town in NY for the rest of the week. I do know he said one of their main cities was in Wisconsin.

NY? Nice!

Maybe you can go on a dig!

[Anijen]

Do I believe the ancient peoples of North America had the technology for metallurgy?

I do as well even though my posts may seem like I take a contrary view. I believe that some did, however there has not been evidence of it as yet. All the artifacts found thus far show that the Hopewell cold hammered them.

I also believe that there is no "slam dunk" evidence to support any of this

I agree however the evidence we do have points to what I have already posted.

My question: why do LDS folks and scholars discount North America so quickly?

I do not dismiss it as quickly as it seems, however I am not going to say metal was smelted when it hasn't been.

[Sevenbak]

I agree. It would take a lot of time and patience but that is how it was done. I highly doubt that the image in the book in your last post say any of these were smelted? I never said anything about Moorehead, I am sure he was capable.

I know you didn't say anything about Moorehead, but by and large all early digs are discredited because modern methods and interpretations weren't used in the digs... so to speak. I'm just preemptively defending the guy, since he did so much early on.

[Sevenbak]

NY? Nice!

Maybe you can go on a dig!

I wish. Sorry, stuck in the city.

[bookofmormontruth]

Well let me help you, this is from the very first book the Smithsonian had published and since that time no evidence has been found to contradict this. Current archeologist has not changed from this view of the Hopewell tradition;

Well, with all respect - if you believe everything the Smithsonian states, you wouldn't believe in the Book of Mormon.

What is your definition of metallurgy? And what is your opinion on the possible "lead smelting" find? Not sure why the archaeologist would be willing to call the hopewell site "Las vegas for "archaeologists" if they weren't seeing the possibilities of the "finds".

[Anijen]

Hi Anijen. Everything I've read on the nature of meteoric iron tells me it's brittle, and can't be pounded flat or folded without it breaking. Then there's the question of what they pounded it with with. More iron?

All very good questions. I know the books I have read say they were razor thin layers but the overlays were not mixed. I will tell you when I try working with some old tools and try to replicate the process. As for now all I can say they were artisans perhaps the harder metals were pounded thinner before overlaying the softer but I really couldn't tell you. Again the early experts and modern experts most agree there was no smelting.

[Anijen]

I know you didn't say anything about Moorehead, but by and large all early digs are discredited because modern methods and interpretations weren't used in the digs... so to speak. I'm just preemptively defending the guy, since he did so much early on.

I think Squier and Davis were great and were very capable and actually did a lot of things correctly back in their day (even though they hated each other). I also think the same of Moorehead. What I disagree on is their interpretation and conclusions for example the Mesoamerican connection i.e. they thought the obsidian was volcanic therefore must have came from Mexico, this has been proven wrong with modern technologies and we now know it was from the west (rocky mountains). If I lived back then, I would maybe think the same, but being I have the luxury of living in a more techno advanced time were things can be tested different views are taken up and older ones discarded that does not make their work any less important.

[bookofmormontruth]

Cold hammering iron breastplates! Now there's something I'd like to see.

BTW, Moorehead wasn't just some fly by the seat of his pants amateur. He was the founding curator of the Peabody Museum. Anyone know of or have heard of the whereabouts of these iron breastplates?

http://books.google....0graves&f=false

The LDS Church bought them and are now in the Cottonwood vaults.

Other than that, they have been "lost" to history I suppose.

[Anijen]

Well, with all respect - if you believe everything the Smithsonian states, you wouldn't believe in the Book of Mormon.

I never said I believe everything the Smithsonian has stated and I do not think I ever left that impression. Furthermore I have a powerful belief in the Book of Mormon that it is true and correct.

What is your definition of metallurgy?

Good question. I have always thought of metallurgy as a form of smelting. But in looking at your link were you searched the word for metallurgy (yes, I read each one) none speak of heat, fire, molds/casts. It makes me wonder how the author defines metallurgy because all those examples given could be made from cold hammered. Do you have a quote from this books which say the metals were super heated to form an alloy or something like that. I know there are a lot of people out there (see many on youtube) trying to replicate an early furnace to smelt and when they do say ta-da that is how the Hopewell must have done it, when the truth is there is no evidence of them doing it.

And what is your opinion on the possible "lead smelting" find? Not sure why the archaeologist would be willing to call the hopewell site "Las vegas for "archaeologists" if they weren't seeing the possibilities of the "finds".

Still studying this and will have to get back to you. If there is anything you learned about me or my posting I really like to investigate sources, evidence, credibility etc kind of what a historian does, is it not?

[Anijen]

bookofmormontruth

just noticed in your link that page 15 speaks of cold hammering so I guess that answers the question how that author defines metallurgy.

[bookofmormontruth]

Good question. I have always thought of metallurgy as a form of smelting. But in looking at your link were you searched the word for metallurgy (yes, I read each one) none speak of heat, fire, molds/casts. It makes me wonder how the author defines metallurgy because all those examples given could be made from cold hammered. Do you have a quote from this books which say the metals were super heated to form an alloy or something like that. I know there are a lot of people out there (see many on youtube) trying to replicate an early furnace to smelt and when they do say ta-da that is how the Hopewell must have done it, when the truth is there is no evidence of them doing it.

Smelting, mining and refining is part of metallurgy and she describes smelting on page 258 and mining on multiple pages. I think an anthropologist has a good hold on what metallurgy truly is, but she also might be including "metalworking" in her definition.

Those "people on youtube" also include fairlds in replicating how Nephi smelted in the land of Bountiful. Smelting is the easier part in metallurgy, refining is the more "advanced" part in metallurgy IMO.

Still studying this and will have to get back to you. If there is anything you learned about me or my posting I really like to investigate sources, evidence, credibility etc kind of what a historian does, is it not?

I appreciate that and I know you do. Let us know if you find anything.

[bookofmormontruth]

The early use of metals, i.e. copper, wrought iron, low carbon steels, by native americans inhabiting the northwest coast between Washington and Alaska, USA, is discussed. In particular, results of metallurgical analyses are presented for a number of early metal objects from the northwest coast made prior to the establishment of direct European contact. The objects, collected over a period of time since late 18th century, include three different types of knives and daggers as well as several types of traditional ceremonial objects known as 'coppers'. JOM - see link.

Native Cu is Cu which exists in nature in elemental, metallic form, rather than being chemically combined as in oxides, sulfides and carbonates. Native Cu is known to occur on all inhabited continents, although its exact occurrence and abundance in ancient times cannot be accurately determined. In the Old World, native Cu artifacts have been found dating back to the 8th or 9th millenium BC. In North America, it is believed that native Cu was being used at least as long ago as the 4th millenium BC. Native Cu is characterized by high purity, typically > 99.9% Cu. Microstructure of unworked native Cu is characterized by a very coarse grain size, presence of long thin twins, and a relative absence of second-phase particles. When worked mechanically, native Cu exhibits ductility and work hardening. Melted and cast Cu can be distinguished from unmelted native Cu by the presence of porosity, a dendritic or columnar grain structure and the Cu--copper oxide eutectic constituent in the microstructure. Native Cu artifacts were produced by hammering, folding or forging. JOM - see link.

The "Journal of Metals" definitely have a firm and definitive grasp on what true "metallurgy" is and was. I guess they need to inform the Smithsonian.

My link

[Anijen]

I would like to clarify my thoughts on metallurgy in North America. I believe there was a form of metallurgy including smelting happening in Mesoamerica and perhaps other place in the Western Hemisphere (we know there was a little bit in Peru) during the time of the Book of Mormon. I believe Nephi knew how to work with metal. We can see in the Book of Mormon that he was always fascinated with metal work. He could have been the agent who brought that information and knowledge into the New World. I do not believe he shared that knowledge with the population and probably kept that skill within the family as a means of work and we all can see the disadvantage of sharing that skill with his enemies.

The Jaredites also had steel but shortly after Nephi the mention of steel stops, I wonder why. Perhaps assuming my hypothesis is correct since he kept it within the family for some reason that shortly after Jarom it ended and the knowledge of its production ceased until a much later time.

If we acknowledge the plausibility of this scenario then we can see why there hasn't been any physical evidence found for this period of time. There is a lot of land out there and we would have to first identify where Nephi lived and then try to find evidence of smelting in that area. That is a large almost impossible task for us humans. Perhaps because it might be one requirement we need to keep in the category of faith and not in the knowledge column.But for right now, we do not even know where Nephi lived, even if you follow a Mesoamerican model, as I do, that is a large chunk of land to look for a small town. If we believe in a hemispheric model then we compound the problem of finding where Nephi lived exponentially.

If I recall correctly there has been some linguistic evidence that supports some type of metals and metal work in Mesoamerica, I would have to ask Brian Stubbs or a linguistic expert to confirm that.

well so far this has been an interesting thread

Anijen

[shrff]

My question: why do LDS folks and scholars discount North America so quickly? Maybe a "model" doesn't seem to fit, but if evidence for the Book of Mormon is found and verified, do we disregard it because it is not found in Meso-America?

Most LSD scholars that I know have not quickly discounted a North American setting for the Book of Mormon. They have instead carefully weighed multiple lines of evidence, including geography and archaeological expectations, and rejected North America as a likely setting for people described in the BOM. New evidence could always come to light, but in light of the current data, North America is a poor fit for BOM peoples.

[Nathair/|\]

Most LSD scholars that I know have not quickly discounted a North American setting for the Book of Mormon. They have instead carefully weighed multiple lines of evidence, including geography and archaeological expectations, and rejected North America as a likely setting for people described in the BOM. New evidence could always come to light, but in light of the current data, North America is a poor fit for BOM peoples.

Timothy Leary is interested in the Book of Mormon? Cool!

[Anijen]

Just an FYI for those interested, I emailed Dr. Eadie from the University Alberta Canada metallurgy dept. regarding any pre-Columbiam smelting and specifically what is meant by the word "forges", and "native copper" in these quotes;

The ores were used in forges by the Indians, and have always since been used by the country blacksmiths in preference to the manufactured iron." (1883. Zeigler, Wilbur and Ben Grosscup. In the Heart of the Alleghanies..., p. 208, 209.)

Native Copper: Humanity's Introduction to Metallurgy?

M. L. Wayman.

The Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, All That Glitters: Readings in Historical Metallurgy, 1989, pp. 3-6.

Native Cu is Cu which exists in nature in elemental, metallic form, rather than being chemically combined as in oxides, sulfides and carbonates. Native Cu is known to occur on all inhabited continents, although its exact occurrence and abundance in ancient times cannot be accurately determined. In the Old World, native Cu artifacts have been found dating back to the 8th or 9th millenium BC. In North America, it is believed that native Cu was being used at least as long ago as the 4th millenium BC. Native Cu is characterized by high purity, typically > 99.9% Cu. Microstructure of unworked native Cu is characterized by a very coarse grain size, presence of long thin twins, and a relative absence of second-phase particles. When worked mechanically, native Cu exhibits ductility and work hardening. Melted and cast Cu can be distinguished from unmelted native Cu by the presence of porosity, a dendritic or columnar grain structure and the Cu--copper oxide eutectic constituent in the microstructure. Native Cu artifacts were produced by hammering, folding or forging. 21 ref.--D.M.Y.

This was his reply;

In this context native copper means copper found in the form of the

metal which exists in places. They had no smelting. Forging here

means using crude tools (likely stone or possibly bone) to simply beat

the copper into the desired shape. reg eadie, professor of materials

engineering