LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Yes I read the Book of Mormon when I was LDS. The thing is as a Mormon I was taught that if I wanted eternal life/living in the presence of God, or exaltation in Mormon terms I must accept all Mormonism had to offer. I was told after baptism my next goal was to be temple works. If Mormons truly believe they have exaltation because of Jesus alone after zero temple works then I'd love to hear them say it. Well seeing that mainstream Christianity doesn't believe in exaltation it doesn't matter in regards to the OP, which was can Mormons be saved. Any Mormon has the requirements of mainstream Christianity to be saved, or doctrinal differences are outside the scope of this conversation and can be brought up in other threads.
Heartleap Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 First off the 12 Nephite Disciples were never called "Apostles" and certainly not "Mormon Apostles". That being made clear...Every prophet in the 1,000 year history of the Book of Mormon, Lehi to Moroni, spoke of Jesus and expounded on the principles of the Gospel. Jesus is mentioned in something like every 1.68 verses in the Book of Mormon, and you want to limit it to 12 men?Show me the writings of the 12 Apostles besides Peter, James, Johhn, and Jude.So you could not come up with anything they wrote in the Book of Mormon?Heartleap...
Nathair/|\ Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 So you could not come up with anything they wrote in the Book of Mormon?Heartleap...You haven't started a new thread for that.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 So you could not come up with anything they wrote in the Book of Mormon?Heartleap...I see that a reasoned discussion with you is utterly pointless.Fin.
TAO Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 So you could not come up with anything they wrote in the Book of Mormon?Heartleap...Heartleap... there are many many things...-The discussion of justice, mercy, and how it relates to eternal laws-Talk about why Adam fell-Talk about how paradise/prison are temporary places-Talk about what faith is, along with the analogy to a seed-Talk about what mercy and charity are by Moroni-Talk about Christ's universalism, to people in drastically different parts of the world-Talk about how to receive a witness-Talk about why infinitle baptisms are not needed-Talk about the regenerative cycle of pride and humility-Talk about how God will not cease to give miracles and revelation to men-Talk about the nature of Christ and Heavenly Father being separate being unified in will in Moroni (somewhat indirect though)-Talk about obeying God's command, even when they seem to break laws, because the Lord has commanded so-Talk about what translation is-Large amounts of miraclesAnd my personal favorite is...-Talk about what we are given weakness forAnd I'm sure I could come up with more too... but there are many, many lessons in the BoM that are not in the Bible, and help my faith greatly. Nah, the BoM is just as important as the Bible in terms of helping out faith, and teaching righteous principles. There are many lessons in it to learn; to help us grow.Best Wishes,TAOP.S. If you are going to respond to this, please do it in a new thread... I'm afraid I've already derailed this enough as is. Thanks.
CQUIRK Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 And I'm sorry you have issues with my personal experiences in Mormonism.The only issue I have is that your current understanding of the LDS faith is even too small to fit on the head of a pin. If you really were LDS before, you must've been one heck of a simpleton apostate.BTW, isn't bearing false witness against your neighbor a sin, Misty?
Heartleap Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Heartleap... there are many many things...-The discussion of justice, mercy, and how it relates to eternal laws-Talk about why Adam fell-Talk about how paradise/prison are temporary places-Talk about what faith is, along with the analogy to a seed-Talk about what mercy and charity are by Moroni-Talk about Christ's universalism, to people in drastically different parts of the world-Talk about how to receive a witness-Talk about why infinitle baptisms are not needed-Talk about the regenerative cycle of pride and humility-Talk about how God will not cease to give miracles and revelation to men-Talk about the nature of Christ and Heavenly Father being separate being unified in will in Moroni (somewhat indirect though)-Talk about obeying God's command, even when they seem to break laws, because the Lord has commanded so-Talk about what translation is-Large amounts of miraclesAnd my personal favorite is...-Talk about what we are given weakness forAnd I'm sure I could come up with more too... but there are many, many lessons in the BoM that are not in the Bible, and help my faith greatly. Nah, the BoM is just as important as the Bible in terms of helping out faith, and teaching righteous principles. There are many lessons in it to learn; to help us grow.Best Wishes,TAOP.S. If you are going to respond to this, please do it in a new thread... I'm afraid I've already derailed this enough as is. Thanks.These were not written by the 12 deciples of the Book of Mormon. Heartleap...
Daniel Peterson Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 As I look back now I wonder if those people also believed that it was because of Jesus they had eternal life, and not because of the church.What even minimally intelligent Latter-day Saint has ever believed that it is the Church, and not Jesus Christ, that grants eternal life?.
TAO Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 These were not written by the 12 deciples of the Book of Mormon. Heartleap...Correct, it was written by prophets.But I see no difference. What is from Christ is from Christ. Which servant it comes from doesn't matter, so long as it comes from Christ, no?If you are comparing, you should compare the teachings in the Book of Mormon to the teachings in the New Testament, that you should. Comparing the apostles to the disciples would not be useful considering much of 3rd Nephi has been abridged, and so the writing of Nephi the Disciple has been limited to a certain amount.After all, Christ talking about things is much more important than a disciple talking about things, ultimately, I think. Mormon probably thought it was more important to talk of Christ's words than of Nephi the Disciples words. Pretty smart of him too, I really like Christ's words in 3rd Nephi, he did a good selection imo.Best Wishes,TAO
Monster Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 If there were some code that allowed everyone to get into the kingdom of heaven I would logically say to myself it would be a lot more obvious. Taking off my Mormon hat for a minute it becomes painfully obvious that there are so many viewpoints that contradict each other on this point that it is inevitable that there is no easy way to know which is correct. Logically I must assume they are all just opinions of men and not divine guidance from a supreme being. At least the supreme being we teach about that actually loves his children and wants them to come home. Otherwise I have to believe it would be much more obvious. So does being LDS prevent you from getting to heaven? Absolutely not, no more so than being a muslim, jew, or any other christian denomination. We are all equal in Gods eyes. It is us who try and set arbitrary rules and notions that we must live by.
TAO Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 If there were some code that allowed everyone to get into the kingdom of heaven I would logically say to myself it would be a lot more obvious. Taking off my Mormon hat for a minute it becomes painfully obvious that there are so many viewpoints that contradict each other on this point that it is inevitable that there is no easy way to know which is correct. Logically I must assume they are all just opinions of men and not divine guidance from a supreme being. At least the supreme being we teach about that actually loves his children and wants them to come home. Otherwise I have to believe it would be much more obvious. So does being LDS prevent you from getting to heaven? Absolutely not, no more so than being a muslim, jew, or any other christian denomination. We are all equal in Gods eyes. It is us who try and set arbitrary rules and notions that we must live by.NOES! Reached positive vote quota
MistyAnn0414 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 The only issue I have is that your current understanding of the LDS faith is even too small to fit on the head of a pin. If you really were LDS before, you must've been one heck of a simpleton apostate.BTW, isn't bearing false witness against your neighbor a sin, Misty?LOL to you're first wave of attacks. Where did I "bear false witness"?
MistyAnn0414 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 What even minimally intelligent Latter-day Saint has ever believed that it is the Church, and not Jesus Christ, that grants eternal life?.They may believe it's Jesus who gives them eternal life, but are there not temples ordinances that go along with eternal life/exaltation/living in the presence of God? Is it fair to say that they believe that they too must do something apart from what Jesus has done so he can grant them eternal life?
LeSellers Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 These were not written by the 12 deciples [sic] of the Book of Mormon.Well, yes, they were. Nephi was among the Twelve Disciples, and he wrote the words of Jesus in 3 Nephi 11~28. Furthermore, we don't have the writings of the other eleven because Mormon chose not to include them, not because they didn't write them in the first place. No, they do not appear in the current translation of the Book of Mormon, but we don't know that they are not on the Golden Plates which are part of the Book of Mormon as we have it today.And, finally, as others have noted, we have no writings of Thomas in the Bible, Judas Iscariot, James, Andrew, or any of the original Apostles except Peter, Jude, and John. Why? Because uninspired men failed to include them in what ultimately became the Bible. The prophet Mormon was, at least, inspired, and chose the works he put onto his plates based on what we would need to know today. Lehi
ELF1024 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 They may believe it's Jesus who gives them eternal life, but are there not temples ordinances that go along with eternal life/exaltation/living in the presence of God? Is it fair to say that they believe that they too must do something apart from what Jesus has done so he can grant them eternal life? It depends on your definitions of salvation and eternal life. All of us who have been born, or will be born are promised Eternal life, because of the Atonement.However, not all of us will make it to the Celetrial Kingdom; which does not meet the average Christian's definition of "Eternal Life" or "Salvation".It seems you did not have a good grasp of LDS Doctrine.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 They may believe it's Jesus who gives them eternal life, but are there not temples ordinances that go along with eternal life/exaltation/living in the presence of God? Is it fair to say that they believe that they too must do something apart from what Jesus has done so he can grant them eternal life? You mean like, follow His commandments? Yes.Do you believe it is acceptable for a Christian to willfully disobey the commandments of God?
Nathair/|\ Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 They may believe it's Jesus who gives them eternal life, but are there not temples ordinances that go along with eternal life/exaltation/living in the presence of God? Is it fair to say that they believe that they too must do something apart from what Jesus has done so he can grant them eternal life? Trying to avoid a straw-man here: Are you arguing that no human action or choice has any effect on our salvation? If and only if that's your position, then how, exactly, does believing/practicing "Mormonism" have any impact on salvation?
MistyAnn0414 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 It depends on your definitions of salvation and eternal life. All of us who have been born, or will be born are promised Eternal life, because of the Atonement.However, not all of us will make it to the Celetrial Kingdom; which does not meet the average Christian's definition of "Eternal Life" or "Salvation".It seems you did not have a good grasp of LDS Doctrine.I do have a "good grasp". I'm well aware that the LDS definition of salvation is very different than the Christians.
MistyAnn0414 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 You mean like, follow His commandments? Yes.Do you believe it is acceptable for a Christian to willfully disobey the commandments of God?No, I was referring too the temple ordinances of the LDS religion. No I don't believe it's "acceptable", but given the fact we are born with a sin nature it's bound to happen. Which is why God sent his Son so we can go straight to the Father for repentance and forgiveness.
SilverKnight Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 No, I was referring too the temple ordinances of the LDS religion. No I don't believe it's "acceptable", but given the fact we are born with a sin nature it's bound to happen. Which is why God sent his Son so we can go straight to the Father for repentance and forgiveness. From your perspective, are LDS temple ordinances an unnecessary but harmless distraction? Or are they a genuinely destructive practice that leads people away from the real Jesus?
MistyAnn0414 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Trying to avoid a straw-man here: Are you arguing that no human action or choice has any effect on our salvation? If and only if that's your position, then how, exactly, does believing/practicing "Mormonism" have any impact on salvation?I'm just saying, if it's our "human actions" that gives us salvation why did Jesus have to die, or even come for that matter? If the mind set is "you do your best (joining the church, obeying the word of wisdom, temple works, etc.) and Jesus will do the rest" , doesn't that rob Jesus of his glory for what he has done for us?
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I'm just saying, if it's our "human actions" that gives us salvation why did Jesus have to die, or even come for that matter? If the mind set is "you do your best (joining the church, obeying the word of wisdom, temple works, etc.) and Jesus will do the rest" , doesn't that rob Jesus of his glory for what he has done for us? As a fellow ex-Mormon myself, I have to tell you that your are misrepresenting LDS teachings here. The LDS don't teach that works without the grace of Jesus can earn you salvation. They teach that Jesus has certain commandments you must obey to earn exaltation. Why do you begrudge them for doing more? Would to God more people would go the extra-mile for God. .
ELF1024 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I do have a "good grasp". I'm well aware that the LDS definition of salvation is very different than the Christians. Really? Then you must be misrepresenting it purposefully...
ELF1024 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I'm just saying, if it's our "human actions" that gives us salvation why did Jesus have to die, or even come for that matter? If the mind set is "you do your best (joining the church, obeying the word of wisdom, temple works, etc.) and Jesus will do the rest" , doesn't that rob Jesus of his glory for what he has done for us? Once again, we are all promised Eternal life, peroid. All of us will end up in one kingdom of heaven or another, unless you really are determined to make it to outer darkness, chances are you won't make it.How does Christ's grace, saving everyone who isn't determined to go to "OD/Hell", rob Jesus of anything?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I'm just saying, if it's our "human actions" that gives us salvation why did Jesus have to die, or even come for that matter? If the mind set is "you do your best (joining the church, obeying the word of wisdom, temple works, etc.) and Jesus will do the rest" , doesn't that rob Jesus of his glory for what he has done for us? No, because only Christ could atone for us, we cannot no matter what we do we are not worthy to pay for our sins. So the glory goes to Christ for being worthy to atone for us because we are unable to atone. Now just because we cannot become worthy to atone for our sins ourselves and need a savior, doesn't mean we are off the hook simply because we knew that he existed. Christ paid the price for our sins, but it is up to him to grant us mercy through his grace, one of the requirements to receive his atonement is to forsake our sins and to follow his example of selfless service to mankind. If we refuse to follow his example and do the work he did, he will refuse to give us the mercy of his grace that is free for all to obtain. This idea that salvation is a something that requires no effort on our part, is just that satanic lies to deceive men into delaying the day of there repentance.
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