I have strong feelings contrary to moral principles...

[zelder]

Matt, thanks for sharing. That was a good post. Its not easy being a mormon.

[Deborah]

I think many of us can relate to what you write. I think that it is insulting for critics to think that we who stay are simply ignorant of the facts or we refuse to acknowledge them. Often we are not only educated and knowledgeable but we have recognized though there may be some discrepancies and though we may have had questions, and yes though we constantly wrestle with the natural man, that all those spiritual experiences and those wonderful truths of doctrine which are unique to the church help us see beyond the challenges to the bigger picture.

I think that at times ex-Mormons read or hear things that aren't intended or even said when they complain about how everyone accuses them of sinning as the reason for their leaving. I think they tend to take offense where none was intended. I know people who have sinned and left, but they usually acknowledge it, at least in the beginning. Most people leave for reasons which have nothing to do with sin or doctrine or history.

What really irritates me is that each new ex-Mo, who has discovered all the "scandalous" tidbits on the internet, thinks that they have been enlightened and feel a need to enlighten others, as if no one else knows what they know, or even cares about it. It's also frustrating when they continue using the same old and re-hashed arguments as if they are new, when in the last few years we have had so many new things come forth that support the claims of Joseph Smith and the church. I think however they prefer not to look too closely at these things because they might have to shift their paradigm again. That's why it's always safer to stick with the spirit.

It's not easy being a member of the church today. All of us struggle constantly, and yes, I've thought sometimes it would be so much easier just to pretend I didn't know what I do know. However, I know too much and would never be able to do that. I left for awhile but I couldn't stay away for long.

[mfbukowski]

Palerider

I was struck by how apostate you are NOT.

I think the wheat and the tares aspect was your main departure, from which you conclude that a restoration would not be necessary. I see the restoration as merely reducing the number of tares to be eliminated later. I think the scripture can be seen either way.

Other than that, you strike me as pretty mainstream.

Sure people from other religions can get valid testimonies of other paths. God directs us to the best path we are able to find- and then in the afterlife, if we have not found the best path, we will get a legitimate shot at it again.

If I was a drunk on skid row, and was "saved" into the Baptist church- could I get a "true" testimony of Christ from the Baptists? I don't doubt for a minute that I could. God leads us to the best path we are ready for and that we find- I am sure of that one.

So I hate to disappoint you, but you don't sound all that apostate to me!

[Palerider]

Palerider

I was struck by how apostate you are NOT.

I think the wheat and the tares aspect was your main departure, from which you conclude that a restoration would not be necessary. I see the restoration as merely reducing the number of tares to be eliminated later. I think the scripture can be seen either way.

Other than that, you strike me as pretty mainstream.

Sure people from other religions can get valid testimonies of other paths. God directs us to the best path we are able to find- and then in the afterlife, if we have not found the best path, we will get a legitimate shot at it again.

If I was a drunk on skid row, and was "saved" into the Baptist church- could I get a "true" testimony of Christ from the Baptists? I don't doubt for a minute that I could. God leads us to the best path we are ready for and that we find- I am sure of that one.

So I hate to disappoint you, but you don't sound all that apostate to me!

Hey MFB,

It probably depends on who's defining "Apostate". I might be seen as more of a heretic by some than others. I know the description I've given in the above post wouldn't fly in any High Priest group meetings that I've attended.

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Pale Rider,

I appreciate your response, which was certainly more thoughtful than some of the comments you had made on the previous thread.

I do thiink that in response to your lack of answer on Moroni 10:4-5, there is a key that I have never once heard discussed. We'll call it Mormon Doctrine according to Matt. And it's found in verse 3...

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

The highlighted part I believe is key to why some people do not get an answer, or get an answer and feel a calling to go elsewhere. Here is the reality: The Gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to the Earth. The Kingdom of God was re-established, with one of the express purposes to prepare the way for the Millennial reign of Christ. Adjunct to that, we are to bring souls to Christ, and we know that believers can be found everywhere, in almost all religions. It seems though that Moroni in verse three has essentially said that sometimes, it might NOT "be wisdom in God" for you to read, and by extension, know for certain. In such cases, it may be because he knows the truth would be to your condemnation. In others it may be because he has a need for you elsewhere to bring souls to him, that you will not be as effective in fulfilling your calling in his restored Church. It does not make the LDS Church false, nor does it deny it as the only Church with whom he is well pleased, only that God may feel your unique views or geographic location or whatever can serve him better outside than in.

Just a thought is all.

[mfbukowski]

Hey MFB,

It probably depends on who's defining "Apostate". I might be seen as more of a heretic by some than others. I know the description I've given in the above post wouldn't fly in any High Priest group meetings that I've attended.

You'd be welcome in my ward as long as you always sat on the left side of the chapel!

[mfbukowski]

So having applied thoroughly all of the directives of Moroni 10:4-5 many times over and finding no witness from the Spirit of its (BOM) divinity or of the one who brought it forth, my view of the church is that it is another attempt by man (however well intentioned) to

[Palerider]

See, here's my point.

You have tried Moroni 10:4 without "apparent" success, yet you say:

So you are affirming some level of spiritual testimony, at least of the savior, which you "continue to receive".

So you acknowledge that personal revelation is necessary, just that you have no spiritual testimony of the restoration, if I understand you correctly.

Yet you also say:

So though you do not really accept Joseph Smith as a true "prophet" you agree that personal revelation is necessary, and yet he formed a church which is "in many ways closer than most to the true gospel of Jesus Christ".

You definitely sound pretty dang Mormon to me, you just have a little problem with Joseph, and heck, who doesn't have a problem with that whole golden plate thing??

You are just a little slow in getting over it.

Personally I think the greatest evidence I have for the prophethood of Joseph is the temple, so we have a little catch-22 problem there since you cannot get into the temple without a testimony of Joseph, since that is one of the recommend questions.

But again, you would be welcome in my ward anytime.

Unquestionably, there are members with a similar understanding of the gospel who simply continue to serve and it never occurs to them that they might even be "apostate"! They think the gospel is the "truest" out there and don't read the Book of Mormon much, and just don't think about it all in too much detail. They know that prophets are human and make mistakes, and it is up to all of us to follow the spirit within us, and don't think much more about it.

I read where Steve Benson once said "Cut me, I bleed Mormon" indicating his strong affinity for his cultural tradition. I've just had too many witnesses of Christ (gained initially from the New Testament) to go the "Atheist" direction he went.

Yeah, the temple is a big one for me. I just see that (the endownment) as being non-scriptural in so many ways. When I announced to my kids my departure from believing the church, I had one daughter-in-law who thought I was probably going to be struck by lightning any moment and two other daughters-in-law who breathed huge sighs of relief and said they could finally speak openly about their mis-givings regarding the temple and the church. Who'da thunk it?

I had no idea they felt that way. Outwardly they looked like prime, committed, active, Latter Day Saint moms who magnified their callings well.

I appreciate your close reading of my post. You surmize things pretty accurately. I'm happy to give Joseph room for mistakes as a man but when a man wants to claim "prophetship" I believe there is a higher standard of behavior and that Joseph does not meet it. Especially in his dealings with women and plural marriage. Even my Stake President admitted this to me privately but as you know in public the company line must be towed if one wishes to remain in leadership. He never admitted that Joseph committed adultery but thought he could have approached the whole thing "differently".

I feel welcome in most wards I attend but I am not one who sits on my hands. I have to speak up when I hear blatant falsehood. It makes me a fly in the ointment.

[Deborah]

I want to add something to what Matthew said about receiving an answer. I think too many times people expect some great response in answer to praying over one thing. Maybe in some cases this happens but I believe that for most people it's a gradual process that comes from daily living, study and prayer. I never had a real testimony of the BOM for years, not because I didn't believe it was possible for such a record, in fact that made perfect sense, but because I never got past the first chapter of Nephi. It was only as my testimony grew in other ways and I started to actually read the book that I began to see its tremendous power.

My testimony began with an assurance that this was the church I'd been looking for, largely because of the discussion on the Godhead and Pre-existence. These two things made so much sense to me and no other church was teaching this that I knew this had to be the right place. Everything else came gradually. I had a testimony of the D&C before the Book of Mormon. It was only after studying Joseph Smith's history that I began to really get a testimony of him as a prophet. Of course then came my discovery of polygamy and the Priestood ban early in my membeship. These threw me for a loop. But I already knew certain other things were true so I just figured I'd understand these things someday, just not then. And of course as I studied more I did gain an understanding.

The point is if we have one thing we can't easily set aside, let that be the anchor that holds us until we continue to grow in faith and knowledge and we begin to get testimony of all those different things that we didn't quite get before.

[Palerider]

I want to add something to what Matthew said about receiving an answer. I think too many times people expect some great response in answer to praying over one thing. Maybe in some cases this happens but I believe that for most people it's a gradual process that comes from daily living, study and prayer. I never had a real testimony of the BOM for years, not because I didn't believe it was possible for such a record, in fact that made perfect sense, but because I never got past the first chapter of Nephi. It was only as my testimony grew in other ways and I started to actually read the book that I began to see its tremendous power.

My testimony began with an assurance that this was the church I'd been looking for, largely because of the discussion on the Godhead and Pre-existence. These two things made so much sense to me and no other church was teaching this that I knew this had to be the right place. Everything else came gradually. I had a testimony of the D&C before the Book of Mormon. It was only after studying Joseph Smith's history that I began to really get a testimony of him as a prophet. Of course then came my discovery of polygamy and the Priestood ban early in my membeship. These threw me for a loop. But I already knew certain other things were true so I just figured I'd understand these things someday, just not then. And of course as I studied more I did gain an understanding.

The point is if we have one thing we can't easily set aside, let that be the anchor that holds us until we continue to grow in faith and knowledge and we begin to get testimony of all those different things that we didn't quite get before.

Deborah,

I believe I understand quite well what you're saying. I believed your theory so well in fact that I used that theory most of my life, having been born into the church, serving an honorable mission, marrying in the temple, serving in numerous EQ presidencies, more than one Bishopric, etc, etc, all the while studying the BoM and D&C etc.

I just (inspite of many spiritual experiences regarding my own life and the veracity of the Lord's mission) found myself making more and more intellectual excuses for the inconsistencies in church history, doctrine, and in Joseph himself.

You and I both know there is hardly the time or ability in this format to lay out all of the issues properly and have a considered debate. And at the end people here just tend to "agree to disagree".

I'm very familiar with the quiet whisperings of the Spirit. I never expected some big "to do" of revelation. When I honestly examine my heart and feelings about the BofM and Joseph Smith, I just don't get a good feeling deep down in my gut. Wish I could......but I don't.

And I think there are millions and millions who have actually, prayerfully read the BofM who don't either. That's why they either never joined in the first place or they have left.

Is that the only reason for not joining or leaving after they did join? Of course not. The reasons are myriad. But I believe there are those both in and out who feel the same as I do.

Matthew has stated that "the reality is that the true church has been restored". No, that's his reality.....not mine.

[mfbukowski]

Matthew has stated that "the reality is that the true church has been restored". No, that's his reality.....not mine.

And as would-be apologists, I think we have to acknowledge this as a valid point of view.

I think no other answer can be given to the myriad of people who "testify" that their path is the right path for them, even if it is not the Mormon path.

But I think we can do this with consistency and love if we do so with the understanding that God leads us individually to the path which will get us, individually, closest to him.

I believe that we will all end up eventually on the same path, but many roads lead to Rome. Oops, I mean Salt Lake City.

(Kind of a weird concept, I agree, but you understand what I mean....)

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Matthew has stated that "the reality is that the true church has been restored". No, that's his reality.....not mine.

No, it is reality. I just don't expect you to accept it, believe it, or promote it. I am sure you feel similarly about your views.:-)

[Palerider]

And as would-be apologists, I think we have to acknowledge this as a valid point of view.

I think no other answer can be given to the myriad of people who "testify" that their path is the right path for them, even if it is not the Mormon path.

But I think we can do this with consistency and love if we do so with the understanding that God leads us individually to the path which will get us, individually, closest to him.

I believe that we will all end up eventually on the same path, but many roads lead to Rome. Oops, I mean Salt Lake City.

(Kind of a weird concept, I agree, but you understand what I mean....)

I do understand and appreciate your insight. All who keep searching will eventually follow the roads that converge leading to Zion. Mine just happens to be located on the temple mount in Israel.

[Palerider]

No, it is reality. I just don't expect you to accept it, believe it, or promote it. I am sure you feel similarly about your views.:-)

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Obiwan]

I have strong feelings contrary to moral principles... And I'm a Mormon

When I read the above, thoughts of Homosexuality and other deeply intimate issues/sins came to mind.

This is likely the biggest reason why homosexual justifications for their actions are wrong, especially when coming from Mormon or Christian believers. Because there are a lot of people who have "strong feelings" about all kinds of things that are wrong, and many can even say they've had them forever, i.e. since they were born, like gays like to say that about their feelings. But, that doesn't mean people should "act" on those strong feelings, and the same is for those with homosexual inclinations. Just because those inclinations can be strong, and at their very soul, doesn't mean they should be acted on. They are completely against God and the natural order of things. Likewise, other inclinations people have be they sexual in nature or otherwise, are things that must be controlled and resisted. Having homosexual desires doesn't mean you are special and different from anyone else who has unnatural or unholy desires.

There is no "Godly" justification for homosexual behavior, just like there can be no justification for any other behavior/temptation. We ALL have our "crosses", some simply seem or may be harder than others. That doesn't change the fact that they are wrong to do.

How do I know what I'm talking about? Because I have my cross too.... Every part of my day that cross assails me, but I keep trying every day to stand above it, and I generally do, only rarely having given into it, though would have been much less had I had a "normal" healthy life, family, etc. So, I understand the difficulty, but that doesn't change the fact that my temptation is wrong and evil. Thus, to all or anyone that might suffer, know that you aren't alone, and you DON'T HAVE TO give into your sins to have happiness. In fact, wickedness never was happiness.

Anyway, just something I wanted to get out there.

[mfbukowski]

I do understand and appreciate your insight. All who keep searching will eventually follow the roads that converge leading to Zion. Mine just happens to be located on the temple mount in Israel.

Well I would not argue with that.

It's just that for me, the non-stop flight for that temple leaves from SLC. I've already taken my share of puddle jumpers.

[Palerider]

When I read the above, thoughts of Homosexuality and other deeply intimate issues/sins came to mind.

This is likely the biggest reason why homosexual justifications for their actions are wrong, especially when coming from Mormon or Christian believers. Because there are a lot of people who have "strong feelings" about all kinds of things that are wrong, and many can even say they've had them forever, i.e. since they were born, like gays like to say that about their feelings. But, that doesn't mean people should "act" on those strong feelings, and the same is for those with homosexual inclinations. Just because those inclinations can be strong, and at their very soul, doesn't mean they should be acted on. They are completely against God and the natural order of things. Likewise, other inclinations people have be they sexual in nature or otherwise, are things that must be controlled and resisted. Having homosexual desires doesn't mean you are special and different from anyone else who has unnatural or unholy desires.

There is no "Godly" justification for homosexual behavior, just like there can be no justification for any other behavior/temptation. We ALL have our "crosses", some simply seem or may be harder than others. That doesn't change the fact that they are wrong to do.

How do I know what I'm talking about? Because I have my cross too.... Every part of my day that cross assails me, but I keep trying every day to stand above it, and I generally do, only rarely having given into it, though would have been much less had I had a "normal" healthy life, family, etc. So, I understand the difficulty, but that doesn't change the fact that my temptation is wrong and evil. Thus, to all or anyone that might suffer, know that you aren't alone, and you DON'T HAVE TO give into your sins to have happiness. In fact, wickedness never was happiness.

Anyway, just something I wanted to get out there.

Obiwan,

Years ago I knew a very talented member with a good heart who struggled desperately with alcoholism. He never gave up fighting it, but he also never overcame it and he died an early death from a failed liver not many years ago.

I'm just really thankful for a Father in Heaven who will view our lives through the lens of His Grace and be more than fair in our rewards.

[Acris Venator]

It seems we all live by our own truths. In practical terms, we must.

Decisions must be made in the light of new info. The new info I encountered when reading No Man and Rough Stone certainly altered my perceptions of Joseph Smith permanently.

I'm still a bit caught up in the fallout of those histories and possibilities, but part of me can't bring myself to judge Smith. Not only do I believe the Lord when he says that judgment & vengeance belong to him alone, but I simply don't have a leg to stand on when faced with the sort of choices that Smith had to make in regards to the revelations he received. That's the rub, IMO... to pass judgment on Joseph Smith. It would be a fairly easy thing to take the Cartesian path of question and doubt to its logical end: an exit from the church. But my life experiences have not led me to be given to doubt. I have always been given to faith. For me, not even Joseph's humanity or the terrifying possibility that he was merely a charlatan is enough to snuff out his astounding doctrine and prophetic acts.

Maybe this is because of my personal sacred experiences, or maybe it's because I like sci-fi. When I read that Orson Scott Card asserted that Mormonism was a "science fiction religion", I wasn't embarrassed. I went back and read the PoGP and I felt peace with regards to the church's bizarre place in the world.

Aside from that, the gold that I mine from the Book of Mormon on a weekly basis would make it all worth it even if that was all I was getting. The principle of "opposition in all things" alone is the most pertinent religious principle I have ever encountered with regards to spiritual issues of our day, and it is spelled out, exemplified, and tied to the gospel of Jesus Christ in the BoM like no other sacred text in existence. The book is literally saturated with that principle. Even if I ever did decide I was qualified to pass judgment on Smith, I could never extricate myself from the power of that principle. For me, the Book of Mormon is an infinite response to infinite beings. Banal and useless to the finite natural man, yet simultaneously a powerful endowment to the faithful diver.

The power of the book implores me to be forgiving towards its translator, and to also be patient with an entire culture of fellow offensive/dogmatic church members. It doesn't really leave me much room for doubt.

[mfbukowski]

It seems we all live by our own truths. In practical terms, we must.

Decisions must be made in the light of new info. The new info I encountered when reading No Man and Rough Stone certainly altered my perceptions of Joseph Smith permanently.

I'm still a bit caught up in the fallout of those histories and possibilities, but part of me can't bring myself to judge Smith. Not only do I believe the Lord when he says that judgment & vengeance belong to him alone, but I simply don't have a leg to stand on when faced with the sort of choices that Smith had to make in regards to the revelations he received. That's the rub, IMO... to pass judgment on Joseph Smith. It would be a fairly easy thing to take the Cartesian path of question and doubt to its logical end: an exit from the church. But my life experiences have not led me to be given to doubt. I have always been given to faith. For me, not even Joseph's humanity or the terrifying possibility that he was merely a charlatan is enough to snuff out his astounding doctrine and prophetic acts.

Maybe this is because of my personal sacred experiences, or maybe it's because I like sci-fi. When I read that Orson Scott Card asserted that Mormonism was a "science fiction religion", I wasn't embarrassed. I went back and read the PoGP and I felt peace with regards to the church's bizarre place in the world.

Aside from that, the gold that I mine from the Book of Mormon on a weekly basis would make it all worth it even if that was all I was getting. The principle of "opposition in all things" alone is the most pertinent religious principle I have ever encountered with regards to spiritual issues of our day, and it is spelled out, exemplified, and tied to the gospel of Jesus Christ in the BoM like no other sacred text in existence. The book is literally saturated with that principle. Even if I ever did decide I was qualified to pass judgment on Smith, I could never extricate myself from the power of that principle. For me, the Book of Mormon is an infinite response to infinite beings. Banal and useless to the finite natural man, yet simultaneously a powerful endowment to the faithful diver.

The power of the book implores me to be forgiving towards its translator, and to also be patient with an entire culture of fellow offensive/dogmatic church members. It doesn't really leave me much room for doubt.

[Palerider]

It seems we all live by our own truths. In practical terms, we must.

Decisions must be made in the light of new info. The new info I encountered when reading No Man and Rough Stone certainly altered my perceptions of Joseph Smith permanently.

I'm still a bit caught up in the fallout of those histories and possibilities, but part of me can't bring myself to judge Smith. Not only do I believe the Lord when he says that judgment & vengeance belong to him alone, but I simply don't have a leg to stand on when faced with the sort of choices that Smith had to make in regards to the revelations he received. That's the rub, IMO... to pass judgment on Joseph Smith. It would be a fairly easy thing to take the Cartesian path of question and doubt to its logical end: an exit from the church. But my life experiences have not led me to be given to doubt. I have always been given to faith. For me, not even Joseph's humanity or the terrifying possibility that he was merely a charlatan is enough to snuff out his astounding doctrine and prophetic acts.

Maybe this is because of my personal sacred experiences, or maybe it's because I like sci-fi. When I read that Orson Scott Card asserted that Mormonism was a "science fiction religion", I wasn't embarrassed. I went back and read the PoGP and I felt peace with regards to the church's bizarre place in the world.

Aside from that, the gold that I mine from the Book of Mormon on a weekly basis would make it all worth it even if that was all I was getting. The principle of "opposition in all things" alone is the most pertinent religious principle I have ever encountered with regards to spiritual issues of our day, and it is spelled out, exemplified, and tied to the gospel of Jesus Christ in the BoM like no other sacred text in existence. The book is literally saturated with that principle. Even if I ever did decide I was qualified to pass judgment on Smith, I could never extricate myself from the power of that principle. For me, the Book of Mormon is an infinite response to infinite beings. Banal and useless to the finite natural man, yet simultaneously a powerful endowment to the faithful diver.

The power of the book implores me to be forgiving towards its translator, and to also be patient with an entire culture of fellow offensive/dogmatic church members. It doesn't really leave me much room for doubt.

I would never say there aren't some very good things approached in the BofM text. But after some study I just see them more as a biblical "midrash" combined with tenets of hermetics, alchemy and kabbalism, all of which were in fairly good supply in Joseph's background and region. For a small discourse one could look here:

http://www.gnosis.org/ahp.htm

I thought the book, The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844 was particularly insightful.

[mfbukowski]

History is such a swirling mush of influences, and cultural flotsam and jetsam, one has to take the truth where one finds it.

The proof is in the pudding, and nothing else much matters. We will, and can never know where it all came from anyway- so who cares?

All I know is that it has given my life more meaning than I ever thought possible in all my years of study.

[Acris Venator]

I thought the book, The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844 was particularly insightful.

It's interesting. As is Michael Quinn's book. Together they make a tempting case with regards to Smith's greater religious oeuvre & the hermetic tradition. But not with the content of the Book of Mormon. When you separate the text of the book from the cultural icon of the book, any comparisons to alchemy, Kabbalah, gnosis, Etc., are flimsy at best.

[Palerider]

It's interesting. As is Michael Quinn's book. Together they make a tempting case with regards to Smith's greater religious oeuvre & the hermetic tradition. But not with the content of the Book of Mormon. When you separate the text of the book from the cultural icon of the book, any comparisons to alchemy, Kabbalah, gnosis, Etc., are flimsy at best.

Maybe you could expand on that?

I'm just seeing a very short jump from:

The fourth Hermetic principle of polarity:

"The Principle of Polarity manifests the fact that everything has its opposite, that everything has two poles. All phenomena have opposite and contrasted sets of qualities, properties, or powers, operating in opposite and contrasted directions."

To:

"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things"

[ELF1024]

Maybe you could expand on that?

I'm just seeing a very short jump from:

The fourth Hermetic principle of polarity:

"The Principle of Polarity manifests the fact that everything has its opposite, that everything has two poles. All phenomena have opposite and contrasted sets of qualities, properties, or powers, operating in opposite and contrasted directions."

To:

"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things"

For that matter, it's not a large jump from:

III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[Palerider]

For that matter, it's not a large jump from:

Yep, Newton's laws of motion. He was an alchemist as well and very studied in the Bible. I actually thought of his law the very first time I read the BofM and thought how interesting it was that they seemed to share something in common.