Predestination

[bobg]

Lesellers mate I am sorry you feel that way, however a big mistake is that you say God saves people regardless of their will, this is a total misconception people who are saved have (as far as they can tell) of their own free will chosen to follow Christ and if He changes them like He did me they will love it, it is an all good situation.

If people in that position have made you feel miserable I can only apologise as that is wrong.

[Vance]

Vance that is a brilliant question, the bible makes it clear that if we are in Christ and born again we are saved, whether you are in that position and you believe in predestination or not then I believe you are chosen.

Which seems consistent.

Predestination done wrong leaves people worried if they are chosen.

God does it "wrong" on occasion? This doesn't seem consistent.

If there is NOTHING I can do about it, THEN how can I do it wrong?

Predestination done right leaves people confident of their salvation . . .

More inconsistency.

. . . because they have accepted and been changed by Christ and because of their intial step of faith toward Him which He chose they would make then they are saved.

More inconsistency. Either they do it or God does it.

Which is why these verses work together.

<SNIP>

And this

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Still inconsistent. Either they "believeth" or they don't. God can't cause them to believe unless they are robots not people. This approach, makes God responsible for evil.

Why Has God chosen me, just simply because it glorifies Him, . . .

And choosing everybody doesn't maximize His glory?

. . . not because there is anything special about me but because it simply pleased God to love me save me and be glorified by me and all others that are saved.

See above.

[Vance]

Lesellers mate I am sorry you feel that way, however a big mistake is that you say God saves people regardless of their will, this is a total misconception people who are saved have (as far as they can tell) of their own free will chosen to follow Christ and if He changes them like He did me they will love it, it is an all good situation.

You mean that God deceives them into thinking it was them that did it but it was not them at all but rather God that did it all?

[bobg]

You mean that God deceives them into thinking it was them that did it but it was not them at all but rather God that did it all?

I wouldnt say its deceiving however my answer would be

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God can do whatever He wants with us, He is God.

[bobg]

Sorry Vance I just noticed you left comments before the one I just responded to, when I said predestination done right or wrong I was not talking about God getting it wrong but rather us misinterpreting it, sorry I was not clearer.

The basics of your points seem to be that you feel its inconsistent that we feel like we choose God but He chooses us, I will not particularly debate this one and just accept that is your opinion on the matter because this has no bearing on whether this teaching is true or not and is rather an aspect of it that you do not like.

This point is very relevant.

And choosing everybody doesn't maximize His glory?

No it does not for this reason.

Romans 9:22-23

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

It says here God endures vessels of destruction or non saved people to make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy or saved people, prepared before hand for glory.

This reminds me of the verse He who has been forgiven much loves much, seeing the sinful world around us, saved people can be regularly reminded of what we have been saved from and into, and glory in God and love Him and glorify Him all the more is why I think God does it like this, because of this verse.

[Magyar]

Still waiting for supposed Biblical support for predestination outside of Romans 9 ...

[bobg]

I thought we were done Magyr, for now this is the discussion matter, hopefully I will get there and provide you some better entertainment

[TAO]

Tao, I think to say that Romans 9 is not reffering to salvation and that it is only talking about foreknowledge shows you must not have read it very closely at all.

The context of the chapter is talking about how Gods promises to the Jews still stand despite the fact that we are now in a new covenant, at the beginning of the chapter Paul says He could wish He was cut off from Christ for the sake of His people the Jews. He then makes this point

Correct, they are talking about why God chose this people. Notice being called, versus being chosen. This is a chosen.

v6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

v7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

v8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Paul is talking about the salvation of the Jews saying not everyone who is from the people of Israel are actually people of the promise or saved, this whole chapter is primarily to the Jews and is talking about how some of them are saved and the promises still apply to them, not because they are people of the nation of Israel but are chosen by God to be people of the promise.

No, promised does not mean saved. Look closely here:

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a ^ason.

10 And not only this; but when ^aRebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to ^aelection might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The ^aelder shall serve the younger.

Promised refers to the covenants, or promises, that the Lord made with Abraham over his posterity - part of which, is Israel. The promise was (actually there is two promises there, so it'd be the promises were), that Sara shall have a son, and that Rebecca's older son will serve the younger. The Lord also made other covenants with the people of Israel, being the chosen people, that were not entitled to others. The promise is not salvation though. Indeed... one of the promises is that Abraham's posterity will be more numerous than the sands.

verses 10-13 illustrate this

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

In verse 11 we see that Jacob or Esau had not even been born and had not done any good or evil but so that Gods election stands we see that it is not of works but of God who calls.

Again, this does not refer to predestination, but to calling. Many are called but few are chosen - many are selected to be capable of doing something, but few, are chosen to actually do it.

This then moves on to show it applies to all Jews.

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

It goes on to show it applies to the gentiles which are non Jews as well

v24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

v30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Look at the verse I bolded in your statement. Called. Again. Not chosen. Since it's not chosen, it's not predestination.

Has not the Potter or God the right to make one vessel or person for honour and one for dishonour, some He makes known the riches of His mercy prepared before hand for glory, and some are fitted to destruction. However this leaves no space for foreknowledge as God is the potter and He has the right to do with us what He wants, He has mercy on whom He has mercy and hardens whoever He wants.

In other words, had not God the right to make me Autistic? I think so. I think he has a right to make me however he likes as long as I can return to him. You see, there is another thing that doesn't work about predestination - those who are not chosen have no hope. They can do whatever they will, and they will not succeed. That is the true failing of predestination - it destroys salvation and the purpose of it. That's why God's salvation is applied through justice, and not through calling, though the way of salvation may be through calling. The salvation itself though, no.

Predestination done right leaves people confident of their salvation because they have accepted and been changed by Christ and because of their intial step of faith toward Him which He chose they would make then they are saved.

Ah but Christ did not choose this, remember, agency? See Deuteronomy 11:27, Joshua 24:15, Matthew 26:39, and John 5:30 for examples of what agency is - God doesn't force his will upon us - he gives us the capability of performing that will - but the choice is ours, based on our will.

Which is why these verses work together.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And this

Read the verse before it, context read differently:

^aFor whom he did ^bforeknow, he also ^cdid predestinate ^dto be conformed to the ^eimage of his Son, that he might be the ^ffirstborn among many brethren.

Your interpretation of the verse is not how the scripture is applied - it is saying "Moreover whom he did predistinate [to be conformed to the image of his Son]...".

[Vance]

Sorry Vance I just noticed you left comments before the one I just responded to, . . .

No worries.

when I said predestination done right or wrong I was not talking about God getting it wrong but rather us misinterpreting it, sorry I was not clearer.

OK, but is all sounds rather deceptive.

The basics of your points seem to be that you feel its inconsistent that we feel like we choose God but He chooses us, . . .

Well, yeah! Why would God deceive you in such a way?

I will not particularly debate this one and just accept that is your opinion on the matter because this has no bearing on whether this teaching is true or not and is rather an aspect of it that you do not like.

Yes, the idea that God is deceiving you does bother me. Deception is normally left to the master of deception and his minions.

No it does not for this reason.

Romans 9:22-23

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

It says here God endures vessels of destruction or non saved people to make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy or saved people, prepared before hand for glory.

That still doesn't answer the question. That doesn't say that saving everyone wouldn't give God more glory.

This reminds me of the verse He who has been forgiven much loves much, seeing the sinful world around us, saved people can be regularly reminded of what we have been saved from and into, and glory in God and love Him and glorify Him all the more is why I think God does it like this, because of this verse.

So, those "vessels of wrath" also could have been forgiven and thus force to love much thus giving God more glory.

Another problem I have with this is that your source for this doctrine appears to be strictly from Romans. Why didn't Jesus teach this?

It would have been a lot easier than teaching faith, repentance, baptism and doing good.

[bobg]

So does He not have mercy on whom He has mercy and Harden whom He hardens?

[Vance]

So does He not have mercy on whom He has mercy and Harden whom He hardens?

Oh, I don't know.

How do you reconcile these.

2 Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Why doesn't it say?

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things God did in his body, according to that God hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Or,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why doesn't it say?

And shall come forth; they that God made to do good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that God made to do evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Or,

Matt 25:31

[TAO]

So does He not have mercy on whom He has mercy and Harden whom He hardens?

1 Chronicles 16:34

O give ^athanks unto the Lord; for he is ^bgood; for his mercy endureth for ever.

and Alma 42 for those who are LDS.

But there is a law given, and a ^apunishment affixed, and a ^brepentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the ^claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

Nah, the mercies of God are much more extent than you or I can ever imagine, and the elect of God come to be elect through their own choices. For neither you nor I knows when or who or how or why someone will fall, and to whom much is given, much is expected from the Lord. We must work our own ways, but in no way are we guaranteed salvation until we reach the end.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[bobg]

Good questions Vance but it all says what it says,

Tao I like the climax of your point.....

Nah

to be honest I like it.

Guys my concluding point to save this going on forever is this

He has mercy on whom He has mercy and Hardens whom He hardens.

Yeah

[Vance]

Good questions Vance but it all says what it says,

Yeah, that it does.

I also like this one.

Josh. 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

[Vance]

A few more.

Gen. 2: 16 Of every tree . . . thou mayest freely eat.

Gen. 4: 7 if thou doest not well.

Deut. 11: 27 blessing, if ye obey.

Deut. 30: 19 therefore choose life.

1 Kgs. 18: 21 if the Lord be God, follow him.

Prov. 1: 29 did not choose the fear of the Lord.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Good questions Vance but it all says what it says,

Yeah

"It still says what it says". You don't see any problems with your rigid interpretation (not holding my breath here) and those contraditions that Vance just showed you in numerous other scriptures.

I have no idea what Paul was saying. However, we have several other people from the bible that tell us that God desires all to be saved and that it is not some arbitrarly decided thing on who goes to hevean and who does not. I have complete control in my life if I am saved or not. Your theology takes that control away.

I will take what the Master says any day over Paul.

[Vance]

Good questions Vance but it all says what it says,

Tao I like the climax of your point..... to be honest I like it.

Guys my concluding point to save this going on forever is this

He has mercy on whom He has mercy and Hardens whom He hardens.

Yeah

Still quoting only from Romans?

[Vance]

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[bobg]

Ok there are some good points here, maybe I will respond some more and maybe even not use Romans 9 (steady now) but for now its 11pm here and I am going to bed

love you all

[TAO]

Tao I like the climax of your point..... to be honest I like it.

Lol XD... yah... I tend to write in a format that's kinda like part essay, part conversation... it's weird, I know.

But yah, have a good evening, 11 o clock is late! =)

[Vance]

Ok there are some good points here, . . .

Thanks for being open minded.

. . . maybe I will respond some more and maybe even not use Romans 9 (steady now). . .

LOL!!

I promise I won't go into shock.

. . . but for now its 11pm here and I am going to bed

love you all

Good night and God bless.

[LDS Guy 1986]

What is predestination?

A misguided (and incorrect) teaching of men that the outcome of your life is determined before you are born.

Who is predestinated?

No one since this is a incorrect teaching.

To what are they predestined.

Nothing since this is an incorrect teaching.

What was Paul talking about in the 9th chapter of Romans, why does the Bible use this term, and what is the Mormon view of it?

There is no use of the word predestine or predestination in the KJV of the Bible, if you are using a newer translation those who translated it might of used this word but it is not part of the KJV which is the only version officially used by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Paul does speak of the Law of Election, we call this foreordination in our Church, this doctrine says that all the leaders in the Bible and modern times were chosen and ordained before ever coming to Earth.

This foreordination does not make them do anything on this Earth, it simply means that they are chosen by God before they came to Earth. Should they choose to not accept there calling there foreordiantion ceases to exist.

Forordination simply means that you are chosen by God in the pre mortal existence to have the chance to lead and guide his children on Earth if you want to do so.

[TAO]

There is no use of the word predestine or predestination in the KJV of the Bible, if you are using a newer translation those who translated it might of used this word but it is not part of the KJV which is the only version officially used by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Nah LDSGuy, the word predestinate is in the KJV, but it's talking about foreordination in that section, not predestination. In other words, being called to do something (which doesn't always mean you actually do it - for that you have to be chosen).

But yah =P.

Best Wishes,

TAO

[SkepticTheist]

I disagree with this a little bit, because Brigham Young said our names are written in the Book of Life already and they can only be blotted out by our wickedness, not put in the book by our righteousness.

So this "pre-sealing" is precisely this concept of having our names written in that book. So I disagree with you because you are saying (correct me if I misunderstand) that by God's foreknowledge, he knows that those who are wicked in the end, and they are pre-appointed to damnation. No doubt they are "fore-known" to damnation, but not pre-sealed to be so. I think this is a problem, because you are making no distinction between the foreordination/pre-sealing and the foreknowledge.

Nobody is foreordained/pre-sealed to damnation. Everybody is foreordained/pre-sealed to success. They only lose their place, and God knows that they will lose their place and their appointment. That doesn't mean in the beginning they were appointed to that, despite the foreknowledge. It wouldn't be fair to damn them until they did that which was damnable. So the difference between this and what you are saying is one of nuance.

This is like an endowment is a thing that is contingent on faithfulness, at some point in the future it is made sure. Similarly, a pre-sealing to exaltation is contingent, but there is no such thing as pre-sealing to damnation. There is only sealing to damnation upon receiving damnation, once the devil seals you his.

Just something to think about here:

The word "predestine" in the Greek is:

the word is proorizo. The simple verb horizon means

[LeSellers]

Lol XD... yah... I tend to write in a format that's kinda like part essay, part conversation...

And at least part incomprehensible. What is "XD"?

Lehi