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Predestination


inquiringmind

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My understanding is that we use the term "foreordination" instead of "predestination." From what I understand, foreordination means that we have been put in a specific time and place and are given specific mission or destiny. But unlike Calvinistic ideas, we believe that we have the freedom to choose the path set before us or not.

We can choose to take the red pill or the blue pill.

For example: Christ was foreordained to be the savior but he could have given into Satan's temptation and chosen a different path. Thank goodness He didn't!

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One website I found described it as such:

John Calvin, the French reformer, established a theocratic state in Geneva, Switzerland, and his teachings eventually became the foundations for Presbyterianism. In the first passage here from his Institutes he is explaining how it can be that we humans can have free will yet can at the same time inevitably sin. God is necessarily good, i.e., it is of his very nature to be good; yet the fact that He cannot do anything evil is not a limitation on him, i.e., does not show that he is lacking in some liberty. Similarly, humans, even though they necessarily fall into sinning, are still responsible for their deeds, since those deeds are still done voluntarily. In the second passage Calvin states his doctrine of predestination: God has foreknowledge of all that will happen; all humans sin and deserve only condemnation, but God has pre-ordained, at the beginning of time, who it is that He will graciously save--in Calvin's words, "favored with the government of His Spirit." We, of course, cannot understand why some are saved and others not. (This very difficult doctrine can be traced way back to the thought of St. Augustine, but it is not a central element of his theology or of most Christian theology as it is for Calvin's.)

In Mormon theology, God knows the eternal destiny of each of his children before they are born into mortality. Depriving us of fulfilling that destiny would rob us not only of our agency, but the experiences necessary to progress. Most humans, I think, will fail to attain their potential; however, in LDS thought, a man limits himself. In Calvin's beliefs, God arbitrarily creates the creature either to salvation or damnation.

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hey all I am an evangelical that believes in the Predestination doctrine, meaning God chooses who is and is not saved individually, if you have any questions on this perspective please ask.

Basics of why i think this are found in romans 9

Romans 9

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

We see here in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whom HE has mercy not according to who works but who God has prepared beforehand for glory, we see in verse 22 the less pretty side of this that some people are prepared for destruction, however if God is glorious over all He is free to choose whatever or whoever He wants. However this choice is not on the basis of any works or performance of us as with Jacob and Esau they had not been born yet their place had been chosen.

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hey all I am an evangelical that believes in the Predestination doctrine, meaning God chooses who is and is not saved individually, if you have any questions on this perspective please ask.

Basics of why i think this are found in romans 9

Romans 9

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

We see here in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whom HE has mercy not according to who works but who God has prepared beforehand for glory, we see in verse 22 the less pretty side of this that some people are prepared for destruction, however if God is glorious over all He is free to choose whatever or whoever He wants. However this choice is not on the basis of any works or performance of us as with Jacob and Esau they had not been born yet their place had been chosen.

What in the world kind of God would that be? Walk through the prison and let some inmates out, shoot the rest.

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I think the mistake that gets made in pretty much every discussion about predestination is not whether its true but whether people like it.

You have just quoted what I used in the bible to support this view and then simply brushed it off with a question stating that you don't like it.

I will happily discuss whether it is biblically correct but I don't feel its for me to make you like it.

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I think the mistake that gets made in pretty much every discussion about predestination is not whether its true but whether people like it.

You have just quoted what I used in the bible to support this view and then simply brushed it off with a question stating that you don't like it.

I will happily discuss whether it is biblically correct but I don't feel its for me to make you like it.

And I can take the same Bible and find scores of references that God is just, God is no respecter of persons, God will have all men to be saved -- and therefore, again, question if a God who picks and chooses whom He will save, meets that criteria. It's not about "liking" the doctrine. It's about God being consistent, just, fair -- as the Scriptures state that He is.

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Well its a case of looking at the bible in context as funnily enough I 100% believe God is no respector of persons as predestination is not the belief that God chooses people because of something about them, God chooses them just because He wants to,

I would be happy to discuss your side of it if you will tell me how you understand what I quoted in romans 9

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Paul wrote many things that are hard to understand, and easily wrested ...

The classic predestination idea derived from misunderstanding a few of his passages, offers the absurd possibility that Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Joszef Stalin, the architects of the Holocaust, Ted Bundy and every murderer, rapist and reprobate in history are enjoying the blessings of heaven while Mother Theresa, St. Augustine, Father Damien, Calvin, Martin Luther and Mr. Rogers are squirming in the fires of hell ... simply because God wanted it that way.

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hey all I am an evangelical that believes in the Predestination doctrine, meaning God chooses who is and is not saved individually, if you have any questions on this perspective please ask.

Basics of why i think this are found in romans 9

<SNIP>

We see here in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whom HE has mercy not according to who works but who God has prepared beforehand for glory, we see in verse 22 the less pretty side of this that some people are prepared for destruction, however if God is glorious over all He is free to choose whatever or whoever He wants. However this choice is not on the basis of any works or performance of us as with Jacob and Esau they had not been born yet their place had been chosen.

A question for you.

Do you believe you are one of those that God has chosen to save?

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What is predestination?

Who is predestinated?

To what are they predestined.

What was Paul talking about in the 9th chapter of Romans, why does the Bible use this term, and what is the Mormon view of it?

Just something to think about here:

The word "predestine" in the Greek is:

the word is proorizo. The simple verb horizon means

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Magyar you are still ignoring what I feel to be biblical evidence in the favour of what I am saying and just talking about how you don't like it, to simply call it a misinterpretation but not deal with what I am saying is just lazy.

Vance, Yes I do.

Palerider, again regardless of the meaning of the word predestination I still see it as a fairly clear bible teaching.

To be fair I do not in any way see this is a salvation threatening belief as I am sure you all know many evangelicals do not believe this either, however I do and seeing as someone started this I thought it would be an interesting discussion.

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I have, without specifying the scriptures by verse, provided several Biblical examples that go the other way. As a matter of fact, other than a few verses of Paul, I find nothing in the Bible to support the "classic" notion of pre-destination at all. Add one more: John's Revelation tells us that every man will be judged by his works. Pre-destination completely voids that. Works are meaningless, even belief is meaningless -- judgment is solely by the enlighted whim of God.

I could go out and curse the name of God and revel in my filth and kill a holy man who was feeding his last scrap of bread to an orphan -- and as a speeding car ends my life a moment later, I am received into heaven whilst the other fellow plunges to eternal torment in hell. It makes no sense at all and sets the justice of God completely at naught.

So, was Paul wrong, in light of the context of the entire Bible? Of course not. Just misunderstood by some ... and that had already begun to be a problem even within his own lifetime, as Peter himself noted.

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Ok I will take that as a no to discussing this properly then.

If Paul were here, he could explain exactly what he meant. I won't presume to try. If that makes me lazy, so be it. I believe he would not have taught a doctrine that turns justice, mercy and the entire gospel upon its head. Others with greater cerebral wattage than I, have attempted to fathom his intent, including some of the above posters on this thread.

It boils down to: God knows beforehand what we will do and may set certain situations in motion based upon that. He knew of the character of Peter long before Peter walked the earth, and as He scooped out the Sea of Galilee millions of years ago, surely did it with thought to that humble, passionate fisherman who would one day sail those waters and meet Christ upon that shore. But Peter opened his own heart to Christ -- was not forced to it. And Peter is most assuredly in heaven. Predestination robs the poor man of that certainty.

God does not make us do anything. Certainly, none of us deserve to be redeemed. We are all sinners. But because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, every human being will have the chance to accept or reject the Light, and will be judged by that decision.

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Jibes aside (which were from me) I do accept thats what you believe, I do understand from mans perspective predestination can look like a bad deal.

The reason I hold to it so strongly aside from in my view it being all over the bible is that predestination is such an important doctrine because it puts God where He should be which is above all else, everything is done for His glory, He is more important than we will ever be and loves Himself much more than He loves us because He is all worthy, all great, all powerful, all wonderful and He knows it. for Him to love anything more than Himself would be idolatry.

So, as Romans 9 shows Predestination works because it is God choosing who He will, just because He wants to and it brings Him glory.

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Jibes aside (which were from me) I do accept thats what you believe, I do understand from mans perspective predestination can look like a bad deal.

The reason I hold to it so strongly aside from in my view it being all over the bible is that predestination is such an important doctrine because it puts God where He should be which is above all else, everything is done for His glory, He is more important than we will ever be and loves Himself much more than He loves us because He is all worthy, all great, all powerful, all wonderful and He knows it. for Him to love anything more than Himself would be idolatry.

So, as Romans 9 shows Predestination works because it is God choosing who He will, just because He wants to and it brings Him glory.

All over the Bible? Or just in Romans 9? God loves Himself more than us? Well, you are entitled to believe what you want. But what makes that kind of a God better than Zeus or Quetzlcoatl or Shiva?

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I think its all over but Romans 9 is probably the most clear and graphic with it.

I think that the justice, mercy, impartiality and goodness of God, who would have all men to be saved, who judges us by our works, who offers His grace to all, is all over the Bible. This predestination doctrine is a misunderstanding of a few passages in one letter of Paul's.

The gods of the heathens did what they wanted and made their own law. They chose their own human favorites, based upon their whims. They could not be counted upon to be consistent or to do right at all times. Our God is not that way, not that way at all.

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hey all I am an evangelical that believes in the Predestination doctrine, meaning God chooses who is and is not saved individually, if you have any questions on this perspective please ask.

Basics of why i think this are found in romans 9

Romans 9

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

We see here in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whom HE has mercy not according to who works but who God has prepared beforehand for glory, we see in verse 22 the less pretty side of this that some people are prepared for destruction, however if God is glorious over all He is free to choose whatever or whoever He wants. However this choice is not on the basis of any works or performance of us as with Jacob and Esau they had not been born yet their place had been chosen.

Your quotes support foreordination and judgement, not predestination here. Foreordination is being called to a task by the insight of God that you may be capable of it. So is it written in Matthew 24, "there are many called, but few chosen". You may be called, but if you do not exert your agency in life to a righteous path, you will not be chosen. Chosen, or in this case, judgement, is the second part you are referring to. It is the ability of God to judge perfectly between two people. That is, to see their innate traits and qualities, as well as their wills and personalities, and find which better suits the match. Thus, it is for God, who is perfect in righteousness, to judge between me and you, and not for us to do. That is what the verse is referring to.

The verse does not support predestination however; it does not refer to 'salvation' anywhere in it, and indeed, the scriptures make it clear that salvation is a matter of will. See Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Also see 2 Corinthians 7:10 "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." Indeed, the Bible speaks that salvation is made of two parts - choice, and action. Choice, that is, choosing to believe in Christ, and action, that is, in not being a hypocrite, and obeying God's commandments. Your salvation is not chosen for you, rather, you choose it, through your choices and actions. You are called to be saved - everyone is called to be saved - but only you, can make yourself chosen to be saved. There is a difference between being called, and being chosen. Calling is the capability of it to happen. Choosing is causing it to happen.

Thus, with the foreknowledge of God, he may see you pass or fail in this life, but it is not for him to break the law of justice, and take away our agency; our ability to go from being called, to being chosen of the Lord.

Hope this helps =).

Best Wishes,

TAO

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Tao, I think to say that Romans 9 is not reffering to salvation and that it is only talking about foreknowledge shows you must not have read it very closely at all.

The context of the chapter is talking about how Gods promises to the Jews still stand despite the fact that we are now in a new covenant, at the beginning of the chapter Paul says He could wish He was cut off from Christ for the sake of His people the Jews. He then makes this point

v6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

v7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

v8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Paul is talking about the salvation of the Jews saying not everyone who is from the people of Israel are actually people of the promise or saved, this whole chapter is primarily to the Jews and is talking about how some of them are saved and the promises still apply to them, not because they are people of the nation of Israel but are chosen by God to be people of the promise.

verses 10-13 illustrate this

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

In verse 11 we see that Jacob or Esau had not even been born and had not done any good or evil but so that Gods election stands we see that it is not of works but of God who calls.

This then moves on to show it applies to all Jews.

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

It goes on to show it applies to the gentiles which are non Jews as well

v24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

v30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Has not the Potter or God the right to make one vessel or person for honour and one for dishonour, some He makes known the riches of His mercy prepared before hand for glory, and some are fitted to destruction. However this leaves no space for foreknowledge as God is the potter and He has the right to do with us what He wants, He has mercy on whom He has mercy and hardens whoever He wants.

Please let me know what you think.

Vance that is a brilliant question, the bible makes it clear that if we are in Christ and born again we are saved, whether you are in that position and you believe in predestination or not then I believe you are chosen.

Predestination done wrong leaves people worried if they are chosen.

Predestination done right leaves people confident of their salvation because they have accepted and been changed by Christ and because of their intial step of faith toward Him which He chose they would make then they are saved.

Which is why these verses work together.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And this

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And this

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Why Has God chosen me, just simply because it glorifies Him, not because there is anything special about me but because it simply pleased God to love me save me and be glorified by me and all others that are saved.

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Why do believers in predestination always believe that THEY are among the saved?

I've wondered the same thing for many years.

Another question is, why, since those who are saved cannot decline it, irrespective of their personal inclinations, why do they insist on making the rest of us, the unsaved, the damned, feel miserable about our condition? The only answer that passes the smell test is that they are gloating over their status in comparison to ours.

As I understand it, this will be their entertainment in the next life, too: along with God, watching us burn in torment for eternity while they bask in eternal bliss.

Makes one reflect on whether we'd enjoy their company, even if we were among the elite.

Lehi

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