Evangelical Pastor ignites firestorm

[Hughes]

So if those women already had husbands, where were they? They didn't care?

Among the currently-married women Smith "plural married" were Nancy Marinda Hyde (the

wife of Orson Hyde, whom Smith had sent on a mission to Palestine),

Zina Huntington Jacobs (future general Relief Society President and then-wife of

Henry Jacobs)...

After Joseph Smith's death, some of his successors maintained his polyandrous

practice: Brigham Young took Zina Jacobs for himself, telling her husband

Henry that he "would have to go and get another" wife. Zina bore a child by

Young on April 3, 1850.

Brigham Young explained that such appropriations of already-married women

were part of Joseph Smith's theology, which stated that a Mormon man who held

a "higher power and authority than her husband" had the privilege of making

"her his wife...he can do so without a bill of divorcement."

Link

Now notice, the 10th commandment:

"You shall not covet your neighbor

[Hughes]

The commandment in question is "thou shalt not commit adultery." It does not say, "thou shalt not be sealed to another man's wife." There is a major difference, one which you have not shown any indication of understanding. So, CFR that Joseph Smith ever "committed adultery" with any of the women to whom he was sealed who were married (not sealed) to other men. If he did not, and he didn't, then your accusation is false.

If you honestly think that Joseph Smith didn't consummate his marriages to these other women, I can't help you. There's no way I can prove that anyone has consummated their marriage who hasn't produced children.

[Vance]

If you honestly think that Joseph Smith didn't consummate his marriages to these other women, I can't help you.

And if you honestly make such a foul accusation WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE, then we can't help you either.

[LeSellers]

If you honestly think that Joseph Smith didn't consummate his marriages to these other women, I can't help you. There's no way I can prove that anyone has consummated their marriage who hasn't produced children.

So, you're more than willing to jump to the unwarranted conclusion he did consummate these "marriages" (which were not "marriages" in the first place, given there is no evidence whatsoever that they were consummated, and that there is more than ample evidence for an alternative construction).

You're absolutely right, you cannot prove it, so you must rest your case on bias and bigotry. Because, try as you might, you cannot reasonably claim that you are basing your "judgment" on Joseph's acts.

Lehi

[Hughes]

So, you're more than willing to jump to the unwarranted conclusion he did consummate these "marriages" (which were not "marriages" in the first place, given there is no evidence whatsoever that they were consummated, and that there is more than ample evidence for an alternative construction).

You're absolutely right, you cannot prove it, so you must rest your case on bias and bigotry. Because, try as you might, you cannot reasonably claim that you are basing your "judgment" on Joseph's acts.

Lehi

By his fruits you will know him.

You see, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm simply interested in the truth.

The evidence is that he married 11 women who were already married. That alone (consummated or not) is a violation of the 10th commandment.

And the fact that Brigham Young did the same thing and produced children indicates that it's more than likely that Joseph Smith did consummate those marriages because Brigham was just following Josephs example.

The fact that you think I'm biased and a bigot indicates only that you are out to defend the LDS position at all costs, and that's ok, that's your deal. But, your accusations of me are meaningless as I'm not the issue. The actions of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are.

And by their fruits I can see they are false prophets.

[LeSellers]

By his fruits you will know him.

You ignore the vast majority of his fruits, and imagine fruits on which you base your judgment. I suspect this is not what Christ had in mind when He told us how to judge men, assuming you don't take the admonition "Judge not that ye be not judged" literally.

You see, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm simply interested in the truth.

Your tone doesn't support your assertion.

The evidence is that he married 11 women who were already married. That alone (consummated or not) is a violation of the 10th commandment.

If you mean this literally, and I assume you do, then you completely misunderstand the concept of "dynastic, Priesthood link", which is what these marriages were: a way to link the families of the women (including their husbands) to Joseph Smith, God's prophet of the Restoration.

And the fact that Brigham Young did the same thing and produced children indicates that it's more than likely that Joseph Smith did consummate those marriages because Brigham was just following Josephs example.

You jump to conclusions as fast as anyone I have ever "met". Whatever Brigham did was not Joseph's responsibility. Further, you completely neglect the role the women had in the matter. Nor should we forget the role the husbands played, not least of which was their singular lack of animosity toward Brother Brigham in Deseret or to Joseph in Nauvoo.

The fact that you think I'm biased and a bigot indicates only that you are out to defend the LDS position at all costs, and that's ok, that's your deal.

You overread my intentions, and you are wrong. Please do not forget that I have much more at stake here than you do.

However, your bias is wholly apparent. Do not insult us by pretending you are anything but implacablyu against the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the prophet Joseph Smith.

But, your accusations of me are meaningless as I'm not the issue. The actions of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are.

At least part of the issue is your interpretation (or better, your misinterpretation) of their actions.

And by their fruits I can see they are false prophets.

You judge by a few of their acts, ignore the rest (the vast majority of which are indisputably good), and pronounce them false on that slanted view. How about the most important of their fruits: their having led millions of sons of God to Jesus Christ?

Lehi

[Hughes]

You ignore the vast majority of his fruits, and imagine fruits on which you base your judgment. I suspect this is not what Christ had in mind when He told us how to judge men, assuming you don't take the admonition "Judge not that ye be not judged" literally.

Your tone doesn't support your assertion.

If you mean this literally, and I assume you do, then you completely misunderstand the concept of "dynastic, Priesthood link", which is what these marriages were: a way to link the families of the women (including their husbands) to Joseph Smith, God's prophet of the Restoration.

You jump to conclusions as fast as anyone I have ever "met". Whatever Brigham did was not Joseph's responsibility. Further, you completely neglect the role the women had in the matter. Nor should we forget the role the husbands played, not least of which was their singular lack of animosity toward Brother Brigham in Deseret or to Joseph in Nauvoo.

You overread my intentions, and you are wrong. Please do not forget that I have much more at stake here than you do.

However, your bias is wholly apparent. Do not insult us by pretending you are anything but implacablyu against the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the prophet Joseph Smith.

At least part of the issue is your interpretation (or better, your misinterpretation) of their actions.

You judge by a few of their acts, ignore the rest (the vast majority of which are indisputably good), and pronounce them false on that slanted view. How about the most important of their fruits: their having led millions of sons of God to Jesus Christ?

Lehi

The reason I say I'm only seeking the truth, is because with Mormonism it's rather difficult to get to. It seems there are people who are wholly dedicated to covering up the truth and that makes it difficult.

For example. You say I don't understand these marriages. Yet, it still is a violation of the 10th commandment, no matter how you look at it. As BY said to Henry, you go find another wife...

You are right about one thing, I don't understand how people could follow the teachings of one man that contradict the clear teachings of the bible.

[ELF1024]

The reason I say I'm only seeking the truth, is because with Mormonism it's rather difficult to get to. It seems there are people who are wholly dedicated to covering up the truth and that makes it difficult.

For example. You say I don't understand these marriages. Yet, it still is a violation of the 10th commandment, no matter how you look at it. As BY said to Henry, you go find another wife...

You are right about one thing, I don't understand how people could follow the teachings of one man that contradict the clear teachings of the bible.

That's ok Hughes, I don't pretend to understand how you can be sealed to another man's wife either. It's one of those things that I am going to have a long talk with someone about after I pass from this world. However, that little fact doesn't change what I believe about the Book of Mormon.

I also don't understand how can you be so blind as to say that there are contridictions between the Bible and the LDS Church. The creeds aren't Biblical, and aren't based on the Bible.

** Additional**

Just because there was a "sealing" between Joseph and another man's wife doesn't mean they had sex. It doesn't require that there was "coveting" just because they linked the families. I agree it's weird, it's a strange, and I don't understand it, but I think you are putting the cart before the horse.

[Hughes]

That's ok Hughes, I don't pretend to understand how you can be sealed to another man's wife either. It's one of those things that I am going to have a long talk with someone about after I pass from this world. However, that little fact doesn't change what I believe about the Book of Mormon.

I also don't understand how can you be so blind as to say that there are contridictions between the Bible and the LDS Church. The creeds aren't Biblical, and aren't based on the Bible.

** Additional**

Just because there was a "sealing" between Joseph and another man's wife doesn't mean they had sex. It doesn't require that there was "coveting" just because they linked the families. I agree it's weird, it's a strange, and I don't understand it, but I think you are putting the cart before the horse.

After Joseph Smith's death, some of his successors maintained his polyandrous practice: Brigham Young took Zina Jacobs (who was married/sealed to Joseph Smith) for himself, telling her husband

Henry that he "would have to go and get another" wife. Zina bore a child by Young on April 3, 1850.

If you don't think what Brigham Young did was coveting Henry's wife, then please tell me what is coveting thy neighbors wife?

[LeSellers]

After Joseph Smith's death, some of his successors maintained his polyandrous practice: Brigham Young took Zina Jacobs (who was married/sealed to Joseph Smith) for himself, telling her husband

Henry that he "would have to go and get another" wife.

It is very interesting that you raise Zina and Henry on your pike, because Henry knew about Joseph's sealing to Zina, and even stood in as proxy for Joseph when she was sealed to him in the Temple after his, Joseph's, death.

Henry, while not exactly an anxious advocate of Zina's marriage to Brother Brigham, did say this: "I do not Blame Eny person [for my loneliness]...may the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham...all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God."

If you don't think what Brigham Young did was coveting Henry's wife, then please tell me what is coveting thy neighbors wife?

I can't say whether Brother Brigham coveted Zina Jacobs or whether, as one of many alternative possibilities, God commanded him to take her as his wife. After all, God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, quite in contravention of the commandment not to murder, and in contravention of the commandment not to sacrifice children.

What an enemy of the Church wrote about this is instructive, though. According to William Hall, Brother Brigham told Henry that the reason he took Zina was because she had been given to Joseph, and that, as Joseph's successor, he, Brigham, was charged with taking all of Joseph's responsibilities, including the wives to whom Joseph had been sealed. You will doubtless see that as coveting, but I see more than a little reason to doubt that facile conclusion.

It's not my day to judge a prophet of God, so I'll leave that up to you who are so much better qualified to do it, being near perfect and all. I just hope the stones you throw do not return to hurt you. After all, judge not that ye be not judged. You do believe that is the commandment, do you not?

Lehi

[Hughes]

It is very interesting that you raise Zina and Henry on your pike, because Henry knew about Joseph's sealing to Zina, and even stood in as proxy for Joseph when she was sealed to him in the Temple after his, Joseph's, death.

Henry, while not exactly an anxious advocate of Zina's marriage to Brother Brigham, did say this: "I do not Blame Eny person [for my loneliness]...may the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham...all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God."

I can't say whether Brother Brigham coveted Zina Jacobs or whether, as one of many alternative possibilities, God commanded him to take her as his wife. After all, God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, quite in contravention of the commandment not to murder, and in contravention of the commandment not to sacrifice children.

What an enemy of the Church wrote about this is instructive, though. According to William Hall, Brother Brigham told Henry that the reason he took Zina was because she had been given to Joseph, and that, as Joseph's successor, he, Brigham, was charged with taking all of Joseph's responsibilities, including the wives to whom Joseph had been sealed. You will doubtless see that as coveting, but I see more than a little reason to doubt that facile conclusion.

It's not my day to judge a prophet of God, so I'll leave that up to you who are so much better qualified to do it, being near perfect and all. I just hope the stones you throw do not return to hurt you. After all, judge not that ye be not judged. You do believe that is the commandment, do you not?

Lehi

The main point is what is taught by these so called prophets.

Since it is a direct violation of the tenth commandment, they might as well take that out of the Bible as well.

Whether Henry was brainwashed or not, doesn't matter. It is still a violation.

Like Jesus said, by their fruits you'll know them. And teaching others (by example if not explicitly) to violate one of the ten commandments exposes who they really are.

[ELF1024]

The main point is what is taught by these so called prophets.

Since it is a direct violation of the tenth commandment, they might as well take that out of the Bible as well.

Whether Henry was brainwashed or not, doesn't matter. It is still a violation.

Like Jesus said, by their fruits you'll know them. And teaching others (by example if not explicitly) to violate one of the ten commandments exposes who they really are.

You cannot know what the motivations of another man are. You can make a guess, but you cannot know. So you cannot say that it was for lust, or for coveting. Because you don't know. So you can continue to bear false witness if you want, but it carries no weight.

[Hughes]

You cannot know what the motivations of another man are. You can make a guess, but you cannot know. So you cannot say that it was for lust, or for coveting. Because you don't know. So you can continue to bear false witness if you want, but it carries no weight.

What does it mean to Covet?

You think that actually taking another mans wife for your own might just be worse than coveting?

Do you actually think that Joseph and Brigham didn't have thoughts and desires before taking them for themselves?

The length you guys will go to defend what is plainly against the 10 commandments is amazing.

[LeSellers]

The main point is what is taught by these so called prophets.

They taught that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God; the Savior of mankind and the Redeemer of the world. They taught obedience to His commandments, Repentance, and to love one's neighbor as himself, to pray, to read the scriptures, to submit as a child to the will of God. I can see how you'd have a problem with that.

Since it is a direct violation of the tenth commandment,

As far as you have interpreted their actions and motivations.

One is left to ponder if Abraham wanted to kill Isaac, or whether he submitted to the will of God. Obviously, if he had not wanted to slay his son, he'd never have gone to Moriah.

Whether Henry was brainwashed or not, doesn't matter.

CFR that Henry Jacobs was "brainwashed".

Like Jesus said, by their fruits you'll know them. And teaching others (by example if not explicitly) to violate one of the ten commandments exposes who they really are.

Don't we know it. So we need to toss out all Abraham ever did because he (nearly, and would have) violated the commandment "thou shalt not kill."

I am left pondering your continued violation of the commandment "Judge not that ye be not judged." I assume you will repent at some point in your life.

Lehi

[Nemesis]

What does it mean to Covet?

You think that actually taking another mans wife for your own might just be worse than coveting?

Do you actually think that Joseph and Brigham didn't have thoughts and desires before taking them for themselves?

The length you guys will go to defend what is plainly against the 10 commandments is amazing.

Hughes start adding something meaningful to the discussion.

Nemesis

[mercyngrace]

Hughes start adding something meaningful to the discussion.

Nemesis

How about we just shut this thread down since it has strayed so far from the OP?

[mercyngrace]

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This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: Hopeless derail...

Thank you,

Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff