LDS county commisioner cuts funding to Head Start program

[Vance]

Vance:

Yes in times of Depression or Recession deficit spending is the only way to recover economically.

CFR

I don't buy that for a minute. The depressions are caused by government interference with the free market system causing uncertainty and fear. Small ups and downs in the economy are simply a result of the internal dynamics.

Edited to add,

I don't understand why people think that some nameless, faceless bureaucrat can spend our money more wisely than the individual or owners of a business.

Did they get a special dispensation of wisdom by virtue the acquisition of a gov't job?

[Jeff K.]

It is true that the depression was indeed exacerbated by the interference of trade with the Smoot Hawley Act. Among other actions.

[LDSToronto]

I showed it. The link dealt with wages versus social security which I found to show nothing. The fact that you could find a direct link (anecdotal or not) speaks to your lack of grasping the situation.

The only thing I'm not grasping is this response. I don't think I ever showed any causal link between headstart and anything else. However, you insinuated that the cause of your daughters 6th grade success is caused by your pre-school instruction, while similarly calling someone out for the same sloppy argumentative style.

H.

[Jeff K.]

No, I was looking for the causality of the link. I presumed the link was there for a reason, but it did not speak to the issue, therefore no causality.

My anecdotal position is quite clear, and it is efficient since it cost the government nothing for me to do what is theoretically my responsibility. The causality is there even if but an anecdotal basis. It appears to me you don't really understand how linking events work and how cause and effect come into play.

Or you were simply looking for a disengenuous argument. Either way I believe the point you made was not valid and more than a little foolish, but go figure, it happens.

[LDSToronto]

No, I was looking for the causality of the link. I presumed the link was there for a reason, but it did not speak to the issue, therefore no causality.

My anecdotal position is quite clear, and it is efficient since it cost the government nothing for me to do what is theoretically my responsibility. The causality is there even if but an anecdotal basis. It appears to me you don't really understand how linking events work and how cause and effect come into play.

Or you were simply looking for a disengenuous argument. Either way I believe the point you made was not valid and more than a little foolish, but go figure, it happens.

The only thing foolish is your inability to recognize your mistake.

H.

[Jeff K.]

No, no mistake. Your is a personal issue. Thats fine. If you can show me the causal link between social security administrative wages and how that endorses headstart, more power to you. I would appreciate your insight on the matter.

If you cannot recognize the linkage in an anecdotal reflection between teaching at home and the lack of government expense leading to a greater efficiency. Then frankly, you might be out of your depth.

[USU78]

Vance:

Yes in times of Depression or Recession deficit spending is the only way to recover economically.

Uh . . . no it's not, as the ueberspending by the Dem-controlled house/senate/whitehouse 1933-1939 demonstrated. After all of that deficit spending, we were in no better position than we were in 1932.

[Bsix]

A point of order here.

From my reading of the media reports...and the descriptions on this thread...Frederick County Commissioner Paul Smith DID NOT use the LDS Church or its position on mothers as primary care givers as the justification for his vote to defund Head Start.

Rather, when addressing the issue these commissioners made made mention of the tough budget choices facing them -- over $8,200 per child. Commissioner Smith noted that the private, religious, and community sectors...and that everyone needed to shoulder the burden. In his long rambling statement, he made mention of the sacrifices his family made and the long term value of a traditional marriage.

What he said is not evil, did not come across as condemnatory, nor did he base his vote on Moms-at-home dogma. At least that is not what he said he was basing it on.

http://www.gazette.net/video/20110214BOCC_Headstart/20110214BOCC_Headstart.html

I think that the media has spun this controversy. And, I think that some here have taken the bait and added their own assumptions.

Citizens elect presumably good people to govern and administer by means of the values, talents, and wisdom they bring to the table. In this case, it seems that Commissioner Smith is being demonized for his beliefs.

Six

[LDSToronto]

A point of order here.

From my reading of the media reports...and the descriptions on this thread...Frederick County Commissioner Paul Smith DID NOT use the LDS Church or its position on mothers as primary care givers as the justification for his vote to defund Head Start.

He handed out copies of 'The Family: A Proclamation to the World' when asked to explain his vote:

"The first thing Frederick County Commissioner Paul Smith does when explaining his controversial views about a woman's proper place is to hand out a pamphlet from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." - Brigid Schulte, Washington Post Staff Writer.

H.

[Jeff K.]

I don't think handing out Proclamations to the World is grevious, but it isn't appropriate either. Like handing out sayings from the Qur'an. As political entities our job is to articulate the position as a reflection of general consensus, not necessarily based on a personal religious world view. It would have been necessary for several members of the council to agree, and one supposes their diversity in religion offers various explanations (unless of course they all agree with the Proclamation to the World). The commissioner by himself cannot make decisions, only chair the meeting.

[Bsix]

LDS Toronto: He handed out copies of 'The Family: A Proclamation to the World' when asked to explain his vote:

Wtih all due respect, that is your characterization...interpretation. The WaPo story doesn't actually claim that his vote was driven by LDS dogma. the WaPo says that he handed out LDS materials to explain his "controversial" postion on the role of women:

"The first thing Frederick County Commissioner Paul Smith does when explaining his controversial views about a woman's proper place is to hand out a pamphlet from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." - Brigid Schulte, Washington Post Staff Writer.

I suggest that Some are conflating two distinct controversies here.

1. Why he voted against the Head Start funding -- the budget deficit that they were elected to cut costs...and that the HS program was too expensive at $8,200+ per year per child.

2. A woman's role -- That he believes that it takes sacrifice to raise a family, and that sometimes that sacrifice involves the mother being at home...and that the most beneficial and ideal familial arrangement is for the wife to be a home maker. In his original statement, he acknowledged that such a situation is not always possible.

He is taking heat for both his vote, and his traditionalist position. I think that the media and folks here are attempting to falsely make the claim that his vote is based on religious dogma.

If you watch the video, it seems pretty clear to me that he did not directly link the two.

I invite those who claim that his vote was based on religious dogma to provide a reference that substantiates that. How about a direct quote from the Commissioner in which he says " I am voting against Head Start because women should be at home." "Head Start causes women to leave the home...so I am voting against because it undermines that role." Got anything direct like that?

Six

[LDSToronto]

I don't think handing out Proclamations to the World is grevious, but it isn't appropriate either. Like handing out sayings from the Qur'an. As political entities our job is to articulate the position as a reflection of general consensus, not necessarily based on a personal religious world view. It would have been necessary for several members of the council to agree, and one supposes their diversity in religion offers various explanations (unless of course they all agree with the Proclamation to the World). The commissioner by himself cannot make decisions, only chair the meeting.

Agreed. It's not grievous, but it does cross a line for a public representative.

H.

[LDSToronto]

Wtih all due respect, that is your characterization...interpretation.

I'm not actually passing judgment on the fellow for explaining his beliefs. He has every right to state that his traditional views on a woman's role is based on what his church teaches him.

I suggest that Some are conflating two distinct controversies here.

1. Why he voted against the Head Start funding -- the budget deficit that they were elected to cut costs...and that the HS program was too expensive at $8,200+ per year per child.

And that is a good enough reason to cut Head Start. If Smith didn't want to draw heat, he could have used a modicum of judgment and stopped here.

2. A woman's role -- That he believes that it takes sacrifice to raise a family, and that sometimes that sacrifice involves the mother being at home...and that the most beneficial and ideal familial arrangement is for the wife to be a home maker. In his original statement, he acknowledged that such a situation is not always possible.

This is where I feel Smith needs to take some heat. Cutting a budget is one thing, and while it may be unpopular, should be argued on it's merits alone. In raising the traditional view(perhaps inadvertently), Smith added a moral dimension to the debate. As a public representative, he enters dangerous territory when he allows a narrow moral view to influence his decision making.

Let me give you an example that is similar, but not based on religion. Years ago, in Ontario, the Minister of Community and Social Services, David Tsubouchi, made comments about welfare cuts. From wikipedia:

"In this portfolio, Tsubouchi was responsible for presiding over drastic cuts in the province's welfare system. He also made a number of controversial actions in his early tenure as a minister. Tsubouchi suggested that welfare recipients who had their funding reduced should consider haggling down the price of dented cans of tuna to 69 cents each."

This was quite controversial in Ontario. People accused the minister of judging welfare recipients as low-class because he suggested that they not only subsist on a diet of tuna, but on a diet of damaged tuna. Tsubouchi could have simply referred welfare recipients to government programs that help those recipients with budgeting, self-sufficiency, etc. Instead, he brought a moral dimension to the debate that brought him public heat.

I invite those who claim that his vote was based on religious dogma to provide a reference that substantiates that. How about a direct quote from the Commissioner in which he says " I am voting against Head Start because women should be at home." "Head Start causes women to leave the home...so I am voting against because it undermines that role." Got anything direct like that?

As much as you want to separate the issue of budget and the issue of traditional view, the two are connected. I doubt very much Smith felt that Head Start should be eliminated because it interferes with the traditional role of women. In my opinion, handing out the proclamation is evidence that Smith made *some* connection between eliminating Head Start and his religious beliefs, even if those beliefs simply justified the budget cuts.

H.

[Bsix]

This thread started with a quote and an assumption.

The quote from the Washington Post:

"The furor started when Smith sought to explain his vote to cut $2.3 million out of the county's Head Start program for nearly 300 toddlers in low-income families."

And, the assumption:

Smith, an active LDS, distributed "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" as his reason for voting against the 'Head Start' program.

I have no quibble with the opinion that Commissioner Smith would have been wise to have not touched on the political hot button of stay-at-home-Moms in his rambling comments.

However, that is not my point.

My point is that the original post on this thread leaps to the conclusion that the LDS Proclaimation was his "reason to vote against the 'Head Start' program."

From what I can tell, that is false.

Six

[frankenstein]

bsix is quite right, the commissioner rambled about this and that.

basically what mr smith is saying and the other commissioner is "I did it so can everyone else" which is a false assumption. and for mr smith to bring up his callings as evidence of anything is also a false assumption.

for ones service in the LDS via a calling, the service is almost all entirely exclusive to other LDS members in that persons ward, so while he may have served the ward well, that says nothing of service to the general public or how service which is almost entirely exclusive to a ward is even applicable or comparable to the general public.

[Bsix]

and for mr smith to bring up his callings as evidence of anything is also a false assumption.

That observation may be a false assumption in and of itself. Mr. Smith didn't directly mention his LDS callings. He mentioned public service that can be associated with the LDS Church -- Boy Scouts and youths. He didn't as I recall, specifically call out the LDS Church as the organization through which he gave service.

His comments were so generic that it is possible that he has offered service through other means than the LDS Church. We don't kow.

for ones service in the LDS via a calling, the service is almost all entirely exclusive to other LDS members in that persons ward, so while he may have served the ward well, that says nothing of service to the general public or how service which is almost entirely exclusive to a ward is even applicable or comparable to the general public.

Certainly, service in the LDS Church is somewhat focused inward. However, the experiences and learnings from service within the Church can be highly useful in learning skills, being compassionate, developing leadership skills, etc. It is also quite possible that in the area where he lives, the LDS Church partners with other organizations...thus mking service less insular. Not to mention his service in the community with regards to being a County Commissioner. I would also like to make a plug that Mr. Smith more likely to be performing more service (even if it is within the LDS Church) than is typical for most citizens.

Six

[frankenstein]

Bsix, from the video you posted

"In my personal life I have devoted hours upon hours of my service to youth in different capacities in my Church as well as scout and other areas"

[Bsix]

"In my personal life I have devoted hours upon hours of my service to youth in different capacities in my Church as well as scout and other areas"

I stand corrected. Thanks. I also note that he seems to suggest service outside the Church. (But, I can't be sure.)

Six

[thesometimesaint]

It has nothing to do with the budget.

http://asheham.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/hostile-takeover-michigan-will-strip-local-governments-and-corporatize-them/

...the Governor

[USU78]

It has nothing to do with the budget.

http://asheham.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/hostile-takeover-michigan-will-strip-local-governments-and-corporatize-them/

...the Governor

[thesometimesaint]

USU78:

We are witnessing the Guilded Age on steroids.

[Jeff K.]

If you really understood the gilded age, you wouldn't have said that.

Consider that the guilded age dealt with a great deal more than merely the question of equity inequality. It also dealt with poverty (and I do not mean the moving standard of lower 20%) but real poverty where people eixsted on the verge of starvation. There was no obecity problem among the poor in the gilded age, and yet today it is rapidly becoming the biggest health threat to the poor. Its a nice rhetorical flourish, but like Twain said, it only guilds the issue. I see it as a lesson pointing to the difference of merely tossing money versus thoughtful investment in order to help.

[USU78]

Its a nice rhetorical flourish, but like Twain said, it only guilds the issue. I see it as a lesson pointing to the difference of merely tossing money versus thoughtful investment in order to help.

Nicely played, Jefe!

[Jeff K.]

A compliment from the master is most appreciated.

[thesometimesaint]

n American history, the Gilded Age refers to the era of rapid economic and population growth in the United States during the post-Civil War and post-Reconstruction eras of the late 19th century. The term "Gilded Age" was coined by Mark Twain and Charles Dudley Warner in their 1873 book, The Gilded Age: A Tale of Today. The name refers to the process of gilding an object with a superficial layer of gold and is meant to make fun of ostentatious display while playing on the term "golden age."

The Gilded Age is most famous for the creation of a modern industrial economy. During the 1870s and 1880s, the U.S. economy grew at the fastest rate in its history, with real wages, wealth, GDP, and capital formation all increasing rapidly. A national transportation and communication network was created, the corporation became the dominant form of business organization, and a managerial revolution transformed business operations. By the beginning of the 20th century, per capita income and industrial production in the United States led the world[citation needed]. The businessmen of the Second Industrial Revolution created industrial towns and cities in the Northeast with new factories, and hired an ethnically diverse industrial working class, many of them new immigrants from Europe. The super-rich industrialists and financiers such as John D. Rockefeller, Andrew W. Mellon, Andrew Carnegie, Henry Flagler, Henry H. Rogers, J.P. Morgan, Cornelius Vanderbilt of the Vanderbilt family, and the prominent Astor family were attacked as "robber barons" by critics, who believed they cheated to get their money and lorded it over the common people.

Government for the people, a despairing Rutherford B. Hayes noted in his diary, was supplanted in the Gilded Age by "government of the corporation, by the corporation, and for the corporation." It was an era when government held the keys to corporate and private fortunes