Why a devil?

[inquiringmind]

The BOM says that heaven wept when Lucifer fell, but did God know that he would become the devil when He organized his intelligence?

Did He need a devil for His plan?

If Lucifer's final destiny is eternal torment, would he not have been better off if God had left him as he was before He organized his intelligence?

What about the other "sons of perdition"?

Did God know they would end up in eternal torment before He organized thier intelligence and gave them their agency?

I'm sorry to ask these questions, but I keep thinking about them, and they keep bothering me.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

[Jason]

God's foreknowledge of the future does not force our choices.

Christ knew that Judas would betray him when he chose him as an apostle, and the atonement could not have proceeded (at least not in the same way) without that betrayal, but none of that lets Judas off for having willingly betrayed the savior.

[inquiringmind]

God's foreknowledge of the future does not force our choices.

No, but God could have chosen not to give agency to those to whom He knew it would be more of a curse than a blessiing.

Christ knew that Judas would betray him when he chose him as an apostle, and the atonement could not have proceeded (at least not in the same way) without that betrayal, but none of that lets Judas off for having willingly betrayed the savior.

So did God need Judas (and if He did, did He need the devil in the same way)?

Is that why He chose to create (organize) them?

[LDS Guy 1986]

The BOM says that heaven wept when Lucifer fell, but did God know that he would become the devil when He organized his intelligence?

Yes, God is all knowing he knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen.

Did He need a devil His plan?

Some argue yes, I argue no, I don't think a devil is needed since the would imply that God doesn't want all of his children to become exalted just all of them except 1.

If Lucifer's final destiny is eternal torment, would he not have been better off if God had left him as he was before He organized his intelligence?

No, if God never made Lucifer then he would of denied that child life and agency, this is an evil thing to not create a life form because it will not do what you want it to do.

What about the other "sons of perdition"?

Same answer, no if would not be better off for God to have not made them, they have the right to choose, God would never punish (by not creating them) someone just because they will make a choice.

Did God know they would end up in eternal torment before He organized thier intelligence and gave them their agency?

God never gave us agency, we have agency because we are made from intelligence. To answer your question, yes, God did know what choices they would make before he created there spirits.

I'm sorry to ask these questions, but I keep thinking about them, and they keep bothering me.

NP, they are good questions, the important thing to remember is that God doesn't make us do or not do anything. He made Lucifer and the Sons of Perdition knowing what they would do, but not making them to do it, they choose to rebel and fight against us in the Pre-Mortal Existence. I assume that he did this because he wants us to become like him, he knew that Lucifer would rebel and tempt us giving us the chance to prove our worth for exaltation.

Just because God knows what we will do doesn't mean we do not need to experience those things to learn and grow. For most of us our choices let us grow and prepare for eternity, for those who made the choice to reject God and join Lucifer they can never grow and can never attain anything. God is pained by this I am sure, but he didn't make them that way and he didn't want them to do what they did!

[LDS Guy 1986]

No, but God could have chosen not to give agency to those to whom He knew it would be more of a curse than a blessiing.

It is the most evil to deny someone choice, you ask God to commit the very sin that Lucifer did, seek to take away someone's choice.

God wouldn't remove anyone's agency ever, for any reason, he isn't evil and can do no evil. Forcing someone to do or not to do something is never good.

[inquiringmind]

No, if God never made Lucifer then he would of denied that child life and agency, this is an evil thing to not create a life form because it will not do what you want it to do.

"If God never made Lucifer then He would have denied that child life and agency"?

Does that mean that if he had never been made an organized intelligence, he would have never been alive?

Wouldn't the absence of life be better than living in conscious, eternal torment?

Why would it be evil to deny life to a child you knew would find it nothing but a curse for all eternity?

(I don't understand this.)

God would never punish (by not creating them) someone just because they will make a choice.

How would preventing a foreseen tragedy be "punishing them"?

God never gave us agency, we have agency because we are made from intelligence.

But He would have denied Lucifer life and agency if He hadn't made him?.

[Ron Beron]

No, if God never made Lucifer then he would of denied that child life and agency, this is an evil thing to not create a life form because it will not do what you want it to do.

Child?? Satan never had a body. He was created a spirit and remains a spirit.

[inquiringmind]

It is the most evil to deny someone choice, you ask God to commit the very sin that Lucifer did, seek to take away someone's choice.

God wouldn't remove anyone's agency ever, for any reason, he isn't evil and can do no evil. Forcing someone to do or not to do something is never good.

I asked if He foreknew how they would use it (and why He would give them the power to make such harmful choices if He did.)

I did not suggest that He "remove" anyone's agency, or that He force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

I'm asking why He would create/make/organize creatures He knew would torment themselves forever?

[LDS Guy 1986]

"If God never made Lucifer then He would have denied that child life and agency"?

Yes, if he refuses to create Lucifer he is denying him life .

Does that mean that if he had never been made an organized intelligence, he would have never been alive?

Yes, without being created spiritually he could of never existed.

Wouldn't the absence of life be better than living in conscious, eternal torment?

Better? probably, just? maybe, morally right? absolutely not.

Why would it be evil to deny life to a child you knew would find it nothing but a curse for all eternity?

Why is it evil to end any life in cold blood?

God knew what Lucifer would do, but does that give him the right to kill (or in this case not create) someone that hasn't committed any crime yet? You cannot punish someone for something they haven't done this is a serious injustice to punish someone who hasn't done anything wrong yet.

How would preventing a foreseen tragedy be "punishing them"?

See previous answer.

But He would have denied Lucifer life and agency if He hadn't made him?.

Life yes if God didn't make Lucifer he would be denying him life. Agency no, Intelligence has agency, our right to choose comes from us being made from intelligence. Lucifer (as some unorganized intelligence) would of still had agency just no form or ability to act since he has no life.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I asked if He foreknew how they would use it (and why He would give them the power to make such harmful choices if He did.)

I did not suggest that He "remove" anyone's agency, or that He force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

I'm asking why He would create/make/organize creatures He knew would torment themselves forever?

Because he cannot punish someone who hasn't done any wrong yet.

To explain, let's say I have a friend who said he was thinking of robbing a bank next week, I try and talk him out of it, I could notify the police, I could try many things to persuade or even physically stop him from doing this terrible thing. I cannot send him to prison for robbery though because he never robbed anyone.

God can't punish Lucifer for a rebellion he hasn't led yet.

[Ron Beron]

Because he cannot punish someone who hasn't done any wrong yet.

To explain, let's say I have a friend who said he was thinking of robbing a bank next week, I try and talk him out of it, I could notify the police, I could try many things to persuade or even physically stop him from doing this terrible thing. I cannot send him to prison for robbery though because he never robbed anyone.

God can't punish Lucifer for a rebellion he hasn't led yet.

I disagree...Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." One is guilty not by act but by intent.

Further...Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away OF HIS OWN LUST, AND ENTICED. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Imagination is NOT harmless!

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The Devil was not only condemned because of his acts, but also because of his intent born of desire.

[inquiringmind]

I found this interesting,

John A. Widtsoe: "President Brigham Young has suggested that the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized , must start over again must begin anew the long journey of existence , repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held. That would be punishment, indeed! "They will be decomposed, both soul and body (body and spirit make up the soul) , and return to their native element. I do not say that they will be annihilated; but they will be disorganized and will be as if they had never been; while "we" live and retain our identity and contend against those principles which tend to death or dissolution" (Journal of Discourses, 7:57). "The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion to be prepared over again" (Ibid., 2:124) (John A. Widtsoe , Evidences and Reconciliation's, page 213)

I looked up John A. Widstoe on Wikepedia, and found this,

John Andreas Widtsoe (pronounced /?w?tso?/, 31 January 1872

[TAO]

The BOM says that heaven wept when Lucifer fell, but did God know that he would become the devil when He organized his intelligence?

Yes, he did... but his intelligence wasn't organized... his spirit was, I believe.

Did He need a devil His plan?

Yes, I think. I think he had to keep encapsulating spirits until he found one that would... but I am not sure, so yah.

If Lucifer's final destiny is eternal torment, would he not have been better off if God had left him as he was before He organized his intelligence?

That would take away Lucifer's agency.

What about the other "sons of perdition"?

Same, agency.

Did God know they would end up in eternal torment before He organized thier intelligence and gave them their agency?

I think so but I am not sure. I think God is required to obey these laws, and thus, he must let them fail, even though he knows they will. I do not know for sure though.

I'm sorry to ask these questions, but I keep thinking about them, and they keep bothering me.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

It's a thoughtful question. I'll try to put some time into it, and see if I can come up with a more substantial answer with some quiet contemplation with God.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I disagree...Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." One is guilty not by act but by intent.

Further...Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away OF HIS OWN LUST, AND ENTICED. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Imagination is NOT harmless!

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The Devil was not only condemned because of his acts, but also because of his intent born of desire.

Intention is conspiracy and is a crime, but to have conspiracy one must have intent. Lucifer had no intent before he was organized to rebel against God, so there was no crime and God cannot punish him.

I am sorry that I wasn't as detailed but I assumed that people would understand that intent to commit a crime is a crime. Satan had no intent to commit the crime before he was created, so God could't punish him for that crime unless God is evil.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I found this interesting,

John A. Widtsoe: "President Brigham Young has suggested that the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized , must start over again must begin anew the long journey of existence , repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held. That would be punishment, indeed! "They will be decomposed, both soul and body (body and spirit make up the soul) , and return to their native element. I do not say that they will be annihilated; but they will be disorganized and will be as if they had never been; while "we" live and retain our identity and contend against those principles which tend to death or dissolution" (Journal of Discourses, 7:57). "The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion to be prepared over again" (Ibid., 2:124) (John A. Widtsoe , Evidences and Reconciliation's, page 213)

I looked up John A. Widstoe on Wikepedia, and found this,

John Andreas Widtsoe (pronounced /?w?tso?/, 31 January 1872

[jadams_4242]

The BOM says that heaven wept when Lucifer fell, but did God know that he would become the devil when He organized his intelligence?

Did He need a devil for His plan?

If Lucifer's final destiny is eternal torment, would he not have been better off if God had left him as he was before He organized his intelligence?

What about the other "sons of perdition"?

Did God know they would end up in eternal torment before He organized thier intelligence and gave them their agency?

I'm sorry to ask these questions, but I keep thinking about them, and they keep bothering me.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

God didnt know "everything" that was going to happen and still doesnt; he "does" know mans free agency will force us to either do good or evil, and we will do both; he has a plan yes of course; but that plan includes free agency; he does not determine wheather we flush the toilet each time or not... it is our agency; and that agency is his plan, wheather or not we choose to be obedient or evil is up to us. I dont beleive God knows every teenie tiny aspect of everything that will ever happen or knew before every teenie tiny thing that has happend was going too; he did and does know;; the carnal nature of man will definately fullfill his purposes of giving each of us the opportunity of proving ourselves.. if satan has not stepped up he knew someone else would have...... thats carnal mans nature...

[Rob Osborn]

The BOM says that heaven wept when Lucifer fell, but did God know that he would become the devil when He organized his intelligence?

No, God could not have known that Lucifer was going to be the devil at some future point at the moment he created him.

Did He need a devil for His plan?

No, the devil is a destroyer of the plan. The plan of our God was already in place before Lucifer fell.

If Lucifer's final destiny is eternal torment, would he not have been better off if God had left him as he was before He organized his intelligence?

But God did not know who Lucifer would become at that moment. Nobodies future is written in stone.

What about the other "sons of perdition"?

Did God know they would end up in eternal torment before He organized thier intelligence and gave them their agency?

No, God can't possibly know this. God can only know all that is possible to know. At some point one has to realize the definition of "agency" and how it entails the ability to choose and decide. If God knew the entire future, including his own then he is not the agent in control of his destiny and thus has no agency. He would just be a puppet to the master of something far more empowering than himself. God makes decisions. Decisions can only exist if one doesn't know beforehand what he will choose. Do you get the drift?

I'm sorry to ask these questions, but I keep thinking about them, and they keep bothering me.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

These questions have plagued man from the beginning of time.

[Ron Beron]

Intention is conspiracy and is a crime, but to have conspiracy one must have intent. Lucifer had no intent before he was organized to rebel against God, so there was no crime and God cannot punish him.

I am sorry that I wasn't as detailed but I assumed that people would understand that intent to commit a crime is a crime. Satan had no intent to commit the crime before he was created, so God could't punish him for that crime unless God is evil.

Again, I disagree. It was created at the same time as Jesus and Jesus, we are told, was righteous. If Jesus and others were created righteous and chose to fight on the side of God while others chose to fight on the side of satan then he must have had free agency to do so. Therefore, intent.

[Ron Beron]

No, God could not have known that Lucifer was going to be the devil at some future point at the moment he created him.

No, the devil is a destroyer of the plan. The plan of our God was already in place before Lucifer fell.

But God did not know who Lucifer would become at that moment. Nobodies future is written in stone.

No, God can't possibly know this. God can only know all that is possible to know. At some point one has to realize the definition of "agency" and how it entails the ability to choose and decide. If God knew the entire future, including his own then he is not the agent in control of his destiny and thus has no agency. He would just be a puppet to the master of something far more empowering than himself. God makes decisions. Decisions can only exist if one doesn't know beforehand what he will choose. Do you get the drift?

These questions have plagued man from the beginning of time.

Agency does not require mortal birth to operative within our souls. We had agency and thought before we were born.

• [*]The Bible presents the concept that mankind had a preparation period prior to mortal birth. The Lord said to Jeremiah: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (

Jer. 1:5), and the "Preacher" asserted "The spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). In other scriptures, such as Alma 13:3,it is written that priests were "called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works."[*]Intelligences were organized before the world was, and among these were many great and noble ones, such as Abraham and Moses. God stood in their midst, saw that they were good, and chose them for responsibilities on earth and throughout eternity (Abr. 3:21-23). Jesus, the firstborn spirit, was preeminent among them. "Jesus

[Obiwan]

The BOM says that heaven wept when Lucifer fell, but did God know that he would become the devil when He organized his intelligence?

Of course...

Did He need a devil for His plan?

Of course... After all, he knew what was happening.

If Lucifer's final destiny is eternal torment, would he not have been better off if God had left him as he was before He organized his intelligence?

God doesn't have the "right" to interfear with anyones "agency" at any point of the process. It's kinda like how "we" are just stewards of our own children.

What about the other "sons of perdition"?

What about them?

Did God know they would end up in eternal torment before He organized thier intelligence and gave them their agency?

Of course he did. I don't know that God ever "gave us our agency". As far as I know, we have always been accountable to ourselves. Who we are is who we are from the beginning, whatever that beginning was.

I'm sorry to ask these questions, but I keep thinking about them, and they keep bothering me.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

I don't know why they would bother you, the answers seem pretty plain.

Even if you don't think so, what about it all that actually bothers you?

[Questing Beast]

The BOM says that heaven wept when Lucifer fell, but did God know that he would become the devil when He organized his intelligence?

Did He need a devil for His plan?

No. "God" does not need anything. Being all-powerful answers all needs.

If Lucifer's final destiny is eternal torment, would he not have been better off if God had left him as he was before He organized his intelligence?

"Eternal" is one of "God's" names. Mormons are not "Arminianists": despite what the BofM asserts, there is no endless hell for anyone. Joseph Smith taught that "eternal and endless punishment" is "God's punishment". So even the devil is not doomed to torment forever.

What about the other "sons of perdition"?

Same answer.

Did God know they would end up in eternal torment before He organized thier intelligence and gave them their agency?

Creating (organizing, if you prefer) any soul with the foreknowledge that s/he would be doomed and lost forever would make "God" into an utter b*****d.

I am sure that "God" can indeed be an utter b*****d - such is the freedom of free will. But we exercise faith in "God's" best side, his Joyous side, his loving side: and most of all his unchanging nature that promises to always love us and keep his self-appointed laws, to be just and perfectly merciful, etc. In this world that we have been given, to follow "God" is to have faith in that reality forever....

[inquiringmind]

"Eternal" is one of "God's" names. Mormons are not "Arminianists": despite what the BofM asserts, there is no endless hell for anyone. Joseph Smith taught that "eternal and endless punishment" is "God's punishment". So even the devil is not doomed to torment forever.

I've read that passage, and it also says "It's not written that their torment will have no end, it's written 'endless torment.' 'Endless is my name..." etc.

How would you explain BOM passages where it does seem to "be written" that their torment will have "no end"?

I mean passages like 2 Nephi 9:16?

...their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever, and has no end."

I've seen some say that it's the flame of this allegorical lake of fire (which their torment is likened to) that's said to have "no end" (and not the torment itself), but how does one make that distinction (and what does it mean)?

(Please understand, I want to agree with you, but...)

In what way would their torment be like a fire whose flame has no end, if it has an end?

[LDS Guy 1986]

Again, I disagree. It was created at the same time as Jesus and Jesus, we are told, was righteous. If Jesus and others were created righteous and chose to fight on the side of God while others chose to fight on the side of satan then he must have had free agency to do so. Therefore, intent.

You make no sense, logically or grammatically here please explain how someone has intent before they exist?

[CV75]

The BOM says that heaven wept when Lucifer fell

The reason for the devil is the exact same as the reason for you; he just chose his business differently than you did, and goes about his business differently than you do.

[Ron Beron]

You make no sense, logically or grammatically here please explain how someone has intent before they exist?

Of course it makes sense. You are obfuscating. Satan did exist. He did existed as a pre-mortal spirit. As such he did have a sense of free agency and he used that agency to oppose God.