Hypothetical Scenario Regarding LDS Women and the Priesthood

[Mudcat]

Seems once in a while on the forum the topic of women exercising the power of the Priesthood, in proxy of their husbands IIRC perhaps fathers too(can't quite remember for certain).

Regardless, there seems to be a bit of a special ruling of sorts, that if there is an emergency situation and their are no LDS Priesthood holders available that a women can do this sort of thing in proxy. From what I can remember of these sorts of discussions the use of the Priesthood was specifically geared towards the topic of Priesthood blessings.

-i.e. LDS woman is stranded in some area with sick/injured people and no Priesthood holder is in any reasonable distance.

I wanted to expand that notion and issue a hypothetical scenario:

There is a shipwreck and there are only two survivors. Jane, an LDS woman, who is the wife a Melchizedek Priesthood holder and Dana, an agnostic woman. The two are stranded on the island for a number of years but manage to survive quite well. Over the course of time Jane and Dana discuss their beliefs. After a time Dana believes the Holy Spirit has witnessed to her of the truth of Jane's words and consequently Dana wishes to become a member of the CoJCoLDS. She asks Jane to baptize her and give her the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jane is certainly reluctant and explains that though she knows she could administer a blessing in time of sickness given the circumstances she isn't certain about the efficacy of such a baptism or gift. She encourages her Dana to be patient and they are both prayerful that God will provide a way.

Another year passes on the island and still no hope of rescue. But the situation escalates. Dana is injured and infection sets in. Jane gives Dana a Priesthood blessing, but her condition worsens as some sort of infection takes hold of Dana.

Dana's fate seems eminent as escalating fever sets in. In between feverish stupors Dana supplicates Jane to do these things for her. Jane is still reticent but as things seem to spiral closer and closer towards the loss of her friend, Jane prays she is doing the right thing then drags her friend, who is conscious for the moment, to the water. She administers baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, all the while prayerful that such action is efficacious.

Dana's condition lasts for only a day longer and then she dies.

A month later, Jane is rescued by her own husband. They discuss Dana at length. Jane is wondering if she should do Temple Work on behalf of Dana or if what was done for Dana was sufficient. They decide to consult the Bishop.....

Thanks for reading. That is the end of the hypothetical scenario.

Here are my questions:

1. Was Dana's baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost able to be given by Jane?

2. What do you think the Bishop's response should be, in regards to Dana and Temple work?

3. If Dana had miraculously recovered after this episode, would this change your answer to either question? If so. Why?

edit add.

4. If Dana had died and Jane had died later, never being rescued, would this change your answer to either question? If so. Why?

[mfbukowski]

There was no need for performing the "baptism" regardless of if God would sanction it or not. Blessings would not be "Priesthood Blessings" because no priesthood was held- but of course God honors the prayers and requests of the righteous with righteous intent. Under the circumstances, there would be no need for the priesthood because it was unavailable- God would honor the blessing "as much" as he would honor a priesthood blessing.

The temple work would be performed a year after the death, and that would end the need for any speculation.

The young lady who passed away would have no different status than if she had been baptized during her lifetime.

If both had died and no one knew of the conversion, the person who died would still be able to receive baptism for the dead at some point, even if she would have to wait for the Millenium to make her own wishes known, and it would be as if she had in fact been baptized during her lifetime

[mfbukowski]

Incidentally Mud, the way that women share in the Priesthood of their husbands is dependent not on him holding the Melch. Priesthood but on the couple being sealed in the temple.

Don't know if that is relevant, but it seemed to be a gap in your understanding.

It is through that ordinance that a woman shares in her husbands priesthood, though she does not perform ordinances

[David T]

Mudcat,

And additional note: Baptisms are not performed simply by virtue of Priesthood Authority, but under delegation and authorization of one holding the 'keys' (or institutional responsibility) for that ordinance, such as a Mission President (for converts age 8+) or Bishop (8yo children of record).

For example, in a regular scenario (not going into the deserted island thing) even though I hold a priesthood office that permits me to baptize, I need to the permission of the one holding the 'keys' for that particular stewardship to authorize it. This would include the baptism of my my own kids.

It is through that ordinance that a woman shares in her husbands priesthood, though she does not perform ordinances

Unless she's a temple worker. And being sealed in marriage isn't a requirement for that.

I think the whole 'shares in husband's priesthood' concept is dubious at best. What does that even mean?

(cue link to paper of history of Female Ritual Healing in Mormon History to demonstrate the nature and history of women performing authorized ordinances in the Church is not so straightforward as many may think.)

[Mudcat]

Incidentally Mud, the way that women share in the Priesthood of their husbands is dependent not on him holding the Melch. Priesthood but on the couple being sealed in the temple.

Don't know if that is relevant, but it seemed to be a gap in your understanding.

It is through that ordinance that a woman shares in her husbands priesthood, though she does not perform ordinances

Possibly so.. bold mine.. and it is certainly relevant. Though I was operating under the assumption Jane, being LDS, was sealed to her husband.

Are there Melch. Priesthood holders who are unsealed to their LDS wives?

[mfbukowski]

Unless she's a temple worker. And being sealed in marriage isn't a requirement for that.

I think the whole 'shares in husband's priesthood' concept is dubious at best. What does that even mean?

Yeah, true for ordinances because she is specifically set apart for that.

Through the patriarchal order we can all be sealed together as families, and women become one flesh with their husbands.

Listen carefully to the words of the sealing ordinance; further if you want to get technical the initiatory blessings are different for men and women, which of course we will not discuss further.

The indication is that the man has the leadership role and thus that is why I said the woman "shares" in his priesthood- they are one in the priesthood before God and men are specifically ordained to that whereas women are not.

Not sure why you would question that, it seems pretty clear to me.

[LDSToronto]

Seems once in a while on the forum the topic of women exercising the power of the Priesthood, in proxy of their husbands IIRC perhaps fathers too(can't quite remember for certain).

...

1. Was Dana's baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost able to be given by Jane?

2. What do you think the Bishop's response should be, in regards to Dana and Temple work?

3. If Dana had miraculously recovered after this episode, would this change your answer to either question? If so. Why?

edit add.

4. If Dana had died and Jane had died later, never being rescued, would this change your answer to either question? If so. Why?

1. No, Jane doesn't hold the priesthood, so the baptism and confirmation are not valid within the LDS paradigm.

2. The bishop will tell Jane to do the temple work for Dana.

3. Not for #1, but for #2, because Dana would be alive.

4. No.

Mudcat, when it's said that women have access to the priesthood through their husbands, that's not the same as saying that they hold the priesthood through their husbands. It simply means that if they need a priesthood ordinance or blessing, they can go ask their husband. Otherwise, a woman cannot exercise the priesthood on her own.

H.

[mfbukowski]

Are there Melch. Priesthood holders who are unsealed to their LDS wives?

Sure- of course one example would be if she was not a member or if there were worthiness issues for either one, or simply if they hadn't been endowed yet.

First a man is ordained to the Melch. Priesthood and then after that he is endowed usually, but anything could happen before that actually occurs.

After being endowed, he might or might not be sealed for any one of a zillion reasons. Missionaries for example are endowed but obviously not sealed.

[mfbukowski]

1. No, Jane doesn't hold the priesthood, so the baptism and confirmation are not valid within the LDS paradigm.

2. The bishop will tell Jane to do the temple work for Dana.

3. Not for #1, but for #2, because Dana would be alive.

4. No.

Mudcat, when it's said that women have access to the priesthood through their husbands, that's not the same as saying that they hold the priesthood through their husbands. It simply means that if they need a priesthood ordinance or blessing, they can go ask their husband. Otherwise, a woman cannot exercise the priesthood on her own.

H.

Agreed.

[Mudcat]

hmmmm...

that is a lot to think on. Thought I was on to a unique loophole...

Thanks Bukowski, Nack and LDST for your thoughts.

I'll sleep on it for a bit.

Regards,

Mudcat

[TAO]

Yeah, it'd be done by proxy work, I think. The topic in the other threads was on blessings, I believe, rather than baptisms.

Also, even if neither Jane nor Dana survives (nobody to tell), when there names are released after the second coming, the work will be done =). For every person on Earth... for their names have been written in the book of life, according to the two open books, and we will receive them. =D

[Mudcat]

duplicate

[Mudcat]

Automatic generated message

This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: Thanks all. I appreciate you guys helping fill in the gaps as it seems I wasn't understanding a thing or two correctly.

Thank you,

Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff