FAIR: Plan of Salvation/Sons of Perdition/Eventual Fate

[thesometimesaint]

inquiringmind:

While God loves all his children, he will not violate Agency and force anyone to live with him. The SoP's choose their own damnation. It is a matter of Agency.

To some it is better to rule in Hell than to be ruled in Heaven

[Doug the Hutt]

But is it perfectly clear, and are those absolute statements?

"Behold, I am endless, and punishment which is given from my

hand is endless punishment, FOR ENDLESS IS MY NAME.

[inquiringmind]

Has anyone seen this blog?

http://notoriousbigg...ml#comment-form

[Vance]

If you insist on preaching speculative doctrines in church you may indeed be asked to please stop, probably quite nicely initially.

Disciplined? Only if you persist in repeatedly defying church leaders, upsetting other members, and generally being a pain in the rear.

I wish you wouldn't sugarcoat things and start telling it like it really is.

Besides, "everybody" knows that the sons of perdition get thrown into black holes. There they are free to do whatever they please.

[Rivers]

This is from the FAIR web site, and I'd like to know what you think of it here.

http://en.fairmormon...n/Eventual_fate

Is it fair to say that the Church doesn't take an official position on this issue?

Personally, I don't think any mortal human being as any position to make any judgement about where people to deserve to go in the afterlife.

[ERayR]

Personally, I don't think any mortal human being as any position to make any judgement about where people to deserve to go in the afterlife.

It is however good to have some idea of what consequences are available and what their requirements are. It helps one make plans to reach some and avoid others.

[mercyngrace]

Personally, I don't think any mortal human being as any position to make any judgement about where people to deserve to go in the afterlife.

It is however good to have some idea of what consequences are available and what their requirements are. It helps one make plans to reach some and avoid others.

If one needs consequences as an external motivator, perhaps they are missing the point entirely anyway.

[mercyngrace]

Has anyone seen this blog?

http://notoriousbigg...ml#comment-form

I just read it (instead of writing the talk I should be writing today )

It's a decent intro to the topic but it would take a book to delve into the details for and against.

Ultimately, for me, it came down to a couple of simple beliefs (my own not necessarily LDS theology).

1. The atonement is infinite as well as eternal which means its efficacy extends forward and backward indefinitely from the point at which it was accomplished.

2. God's work and glory is the eternal life and immortaliy of man.

3. A perfect designer doesn't design a flawed plan. He designs a plan that works to its desired end.

[TAO]

To take a metaphor to be a literal state is hazardous. "Worm dieth not" is not literal. Yet "endless and eternal" are literal concepts. And we are told that they are names of "God".

I am going to have to ask why you believe 'worm dieth not' is not literal, and yet 'endless and eternal' are.

You are wedded to a literalness that puts enormous limits on "God"; all apparently fitted to your capacity to understand. This need to be in control, to categorize and compartmentalize "God" is just something that you'll have to get over sooner or later. Much like those whose "worm dieth not" will have to get over their self-limiting way of thinking about "God" before they can progress out of anger and hatred toward Joy.

I explained to you in the other thread why I do not believe in a God that is infinitely big. I believe in one will always be bigger than I, but not infinitely big, not non-understandable. So far, I have not found that God has had a problem too much with me trying to understand him, so unless he asks me differently, I am just going to do things the way I've been doing, altering as he specifies.

Where "God" will not intervene is in using compulsion.

God does use compulsion according to the D&C, however, those who do not have to be compelled to do the right thing are blessed.

Space-time is eternal, linear and irreversible to those inhabiting it; but not to "God".

I am going to have to call for proof this. Considering that I believe God is within his own space-time field, I do not accept this point as valid. Yes, for our space time, but not necessarily for his.

The concept of "recycling souls" is just one way of making sense out of what appears to be an irreversible condition; because the imagination rebels at the concept of "God" wanting something that is impossible, i.e. wanting souls to be happy yet they choose to be otherwise. To deliberately create souls with the foreknowledge that they are irredeemable is perverse: it is gamesmanship, puppet-mastering, etc. It is not the "work and the glory" at all. It is selective "salvation and damnation" and repugnant to even my finite mind, so I can only imagine how repugnant it must be to an infinite mind!....

From what I understand, God is bound by his own laws (promises) to let man have his agency, and so he must give a chance to those who will fail, and those who will sucked - for him not to do this would be to break the law of justice, and without following that, he cannot be who he is.

[Questing Beast]

I am going to have to ask why you believe 'worm dieth not' is not literal, and yet 'endless and eternal' are.

Because we resurrected beings do not have "worms"! It is a metaphor, or even analogy of what endless discontent (lack of Joy) must feel like.

..., I am just going to do things the way I've been doing, altering as he specifies.

That sounds like a reasonable, open-minded attitude to me.

God does use compulsion according to the D&C, however, those who do not have to be compelled to do the right thing are blessed.

You are mixing up uses of the word. God does not force people to act. Yet his truth will be unavoidable to everyone "in the end"; so even the wicked are "compelled" to confess that God is just, and to see his truth, etc.

Yet only those who are so far out of reality - that they deny the existence of a shining sun in the sky - will be unreachable with truth; and they will go to the place of their choosing, which is outside of created reality. That's the sense of the "outer darkness" concept as I take it.

Space-time is eternal, linear and irreversible to those inhabiting it; but not to "God".

I am going to have to call for proof this. Considering that I believe God is within his own space-time field, I do not accept this point as valid. Yes, for our space time, but not necessarily for his.

You cannot put a limit on "God" vis-a-vis space-time. Even if you maintain a limited, finite concept of "God" inhabiting "his own space-time field", you have to allow that "all things are before my face continually" asserts all power over "his own space-time field". To be able to conceive of total power over space-time is not a flight of imagination; it is a concept that can be conceived of, therefore it is possible. Yet we have NO evidence that our species will ever attain to it. If we cannot, that does not put any such limitation on "God". Again, you cannot ultimately have faith in such a finite being as the one that you entertain.

From what I understand, God is bound by his own laws (promises) to let man have his agency, and so he must give a chance to those who will fail, and those who will sucked - for him not to do this would be to break the law of justice, and without following that, he cannot be who he is.

If they ultimately fail they never had a chance in the first place. The appearance of free will is fake then. Because "God" knowing the end from the beginning must always create for success and not failure, in order to not be an utterly demented control freak game player....

[TAO]

Because we resurrected beings do not have "worms"! It is a metaphor, or even analogy of what endless discontent (lack of Joy) must feel like.

As D&C points out, endless and eternal are not literal - but are names. So again, I ask, why do you view one as a metaphor, and another as not?

You are mixing up uses of the word. God does not force people to act. Yet his truth will be unavoidable to everyone "in the end"; so even the wicked are "compelled" to confess that God is just, and to see his truth, etc.

No, God does use compulsion... have you ever felt the Spirit give you a very bad feeling... repetitively in a strong manner? That is what compulsion is - we won't receive rewards for such.

You cannot put a limit on "God" vis-a-vis space-time.

Call for proof.

Even if you maintain a limited, finite concept of "God" inhabiting "his own space-time field", you have to allow that "all things are before my face continually" asserts all power over "his own space-time field".

I disagree. It asserts power over ours.

To be able to conceive of total power over space-time is not a flight of imagination; it is a concept that can be conceived of, therefore it is possible.

As I have pointed out to you, total control over one's own space-time is impossible due to things outside of it.

Again, you cannot ultimately have faith in such a finite being as the one that you entertain.

I already have faith in him. =P.

If they ultimately fail they never had a chance in the first place. The appearance of free will is fake then. Because "God" knowing the end from the beginning must always create for success and not failure, in order to not be an utterly demented control freak game player....

Read the part about the wiegh() method I posted in tana's thread.