Modes of Communication During The Meridian of Time

[Vex]

In a previous thread I raised the question of what means of communication were available to the Savior during his mortal ministry. Some of the thoughts on the subject include message birds such as carrier pigeons, Roman Postal Service, and envoys.

Are there any other services that were available for communication during this time, and if so, what are they?

What is the likelihood that the savior used such services to spread the Gospel, to reach disciples, and even reach family that has been out of reach?

I realize this is all conjecture, but is there any archeological evidence that such messages were carried out (ie, carrier pigeon messages, postal service in use by Jews, etc)?

Thoughts?

[thesometimesaint]

Vex:

While they didn't have a post office as we would call it. People, and letters(books) have been traveling great distances from time immemorial.

[Nomad]

In a previous thread I raised the question of what means of communication were available to the Savior during his mortal ministry. Some of the thoughts on the subject include message birds such as carrier pigeons, Roman Postal Service, and envoys.

Are there any other services that were available for communication during this time, and if so, what are they?

What is the likelihood that the savior used such services to spread the Gospel, to reach disciples, and even reach family that has been out of reach?

I realize this is all conjecture, but is there any archeological evidence that such messages were carried out (ie, carrier pigeon messages, postal service in use by Jews, etc)?

Thoughts?

I already mentioned the Cursus Publicus, which was an amazing example of Roman reach and civilization at that time. I think if one could have, during the time of Christ, send a package from Damascus to Britain and have it arrive in 30 - 40 days, that represents a feat of civilization not exceeded until the transcontinental railroad linked the entire United States in 1869. As for the dissemination of the gospel by its missionaries after the resurrection, I don't see why copies of the scriptures they used (and created) could not have been mass-produced and mailed, via the Cursus Publicus, to anywhere in the empire. All you would really need is an agent at both ends of the shipment.

People like to think of the world Jesus was born into as technologically and culturally backward. Dirty people herding sheep on hillsides and cultivating subsistence crops with crude implements. It's a false picture of the Roman world at the birth of Christ. In fact, Roman power, culture, technology, capacity for massive public works, etc. was arguably at its apex. A traveller through Judea would have seen all the best of what Pax Romana brought to its empire. Judea was a key strategic province, and Roman administrators would have lived in luxury, with indoor plumbing, heated baths, lavish appointments to their well-constructed buildings, fine clothing, fine wine, fine perfumed women--the whole nine yards. And the Jews who learned to adapt to the reality of Roman rule would have been able to live similarly. I'm sure many did.

[Vex]

I already mentioned the Cursus Publicus, which was an amazing example of Roman reach and civilization at that time. I think if one could have, during the time of Christ, send a package from Damascus to Britain and have it arrive in 30 - 40 days, that represents a feat of civilization not exceeded until the transcontinental railroad linked the entire United States in 1869. As for the dissemination of the gospel by its missionaries after the resurrection, I don't see why copies of the scriptures they used (and created) could not have been mass-produced and mailed, via the Cursus Publicus, to anywhere in the empire. All you would really need is an agent at both ends of the shipment.

People like to think of the world Jesus was born into as technologically and culturally backward. Dirty people herding sheep on hillsides and cultivating subsistence crops with crude implements. It's a false picture of the Roman world at the birth of Christ. In fact, Roman power, culture, technology, capacity for massive public works, etc. was arguably at its apex. A traveller through Judea would have seen all the best of what Pax Romana brought to its empire. Judea was a key strategic province, and Roman administrators would have lived in luxury, with indoor plumbing, heated baths, lavish appointments to their well-constructed buildings, fine clothing, fine wine, fine perfumed women--the whole nine yards. And the Jews who learned to adapt to the reality of Roman rule would have been able to live similarly. I'm sure many did.

Is there any reference in Jewish literature to such things (epistles, etc) of individuals using the roman postal service? I would think that the Jews would look upon Roman offices and services with distrust and disdain. Is this an inappropriate view?

[Nomad]

Vex:

While they didn't have a post office as we would call it. People, and letters(books) have been traveling great distances from time immemorial.

The Persians, much earlier, had a similar postal system to the Romans. In fact, IIRC, it was the model for the Roman system. And remember, the geographic extent of the Persian empire is the only one that was greater than the later Romans. There is reference to it in the book of Esther:

Esther 3

12 Then were the king

[Nomad]

Is there any reference in Jewish literature to such things (epistles, etc) of individuals using the roman postal service? I would think that the Jews would look upon Roman offices and services with distrust and disdain. Is this an inappropriate view?

I am not aware of any evidence that would suggest the Jews did not use the Cursus Publicus. If they did not, they would have been unique among Roman subjects. Not only that, but many Jews were even Roman citizens, like Paul.

[Calm]

People like to think of the world Jesus was born into as technologically and culturally backward......In fact, Roman power, culture, technology, capacity for massive public works, etc. was arguably at its apex.

Sounds kind of like how we consider the Restoration occurring at a particular time and place in order to allow for maximum growth and reach of the gospel.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I already mentioned the Cursus Publicus, which was an amazing example of Roman reach and civilization at that time. I think if one could have, during the time of Christ, send a package from Damascus to Britain and have it arrive in 30 - 40 days, that represents a feat of civilization not exceeded until the transcontinental railroad linked the entire United States in 1869. As for the dissemination of the gospel by its missionaries after the resurrection, I don't see why copies of the scriptures they used (and created) could not have been mass-produced and mailed, via the Cursus Publicus, to anywhere in the empire. All you would really need is an agent at both ends of the shipment.

People like to think of the world Jesus was born into as technologically and culturally backward. Dirty people herding sheep on hillsides and cultivating subsistence crops with crude implements. It's a false picture of the Roman world at the birth of Christ. In fact, Roman power, culture, technology, capacity for massive public works, etc. was arguably at its apex. A traveller through Judea would have seen all the best of what Pax Romana brought to its empire. Judea was a key strategic province, and Roman administrators would have lived in luxury, with indoor plumbing, heated baths, lavish appointments to their well-constructed buildings, fine clothing, fine wine, fine perfumed women--the whole nine yards. And the Jews who learned to adapt to the reality of Roman rule would have been able to live similarly. I'm sure many did.

Maybe in the very early days of the Church after Christ ascended they might have used the roman postal system (how else was the various epistles delivered) but this would of only lasted a little while. Once Nero started persecuting and killing Christians I am sure that the Roman Postal Service would not be used out of fear that of being discovered and killed by the Emperor.

I do not know or have ever heard of Christ using any means other than direct sermons to teach his message, remember that Christ never wrote anything down, so he had no epistles or books to send. The Gospel was not written down until around 75AD over 40 years after the resurrection of Christ and well after the beginning of Roman persecution of Christians. So while it is possible that the postal system was used to send the epistles I doubt it was ever used to send the Gospels or any other Christian text out of fear of it coming into the hands of the Empire.

Hope my opinions help!

[ElfLord]

In a previous thread I raised the question of what means of communication were available to the Savior during his mortal ministry. Some of the thoughts on the subject include message birds such as carrier pigeons, Roman Postal Service, and envoys.

Are there any other services that were available for communication during this time, and if so, what are they?

What is the likelihood that the savior used such services to spread the Gospel, to reach disciples, and even reach family that has been out of reach?

I realize this is all conjecture, but is there any archeological evidence that such messages were carried out (ie, carrier pigeon messages, postal service in use by Jews, etc)?

Thoughts?

How about telepathy?

Acts 16:9

9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

[LDS Guy 1986]

People like to think of the world Jesus was born into as technologically and culturally backward. Dirty people herding sheep on hillsides and cultivating subsistence crops with crude implements. It's a false picture of the Roman world at the birth of Christ. In fact, Roman power, culture, technology, capacity for massive public works, etc. was arguably at its apex. A traveller through Judea would have seen all the best of what Pax Romana brought to its empire. Judea was a key strategic province, and Roman administrators would have lived in luxury, with indoor plumbing, heated baths, lavish appointments to their well-constructed buildings, fine clothing, fine wine, fine perfumed women--the whole nine yards. And the Jews who learned to adapt to the reality of Roman rule would have been able to live similarly. I'm sure many did.

Yes, many people think down upon the ancient superpowers like Rome but little do they know that we are barely ahead of there accomplishments. The amazing thing is that they had progressed so far without the technology that we have today! The world fell backwards thousands of years when Rome fell. Only in the past few hundred years have we recovered from the collapse of Rome (and we complain about some instability in the stock market LOL) and started progressing again!

If Rome didn't fall the world would be entirely different, the Romans would of kept on inventing and building and for all we know we could of been colonizing other solar systems in 2011 instead of still unable to realistically travel to the nearest planet!

Oh the great and marvelous things that we could of seen! But it was not in God's plan and we today are just beginning to move beyond the marvels of Rome!

This made me thing of something, but that would be an entirely new topic!

[thesometimesaint]

LDS Guy 1986:

By the time the city of Rome fell all the action was in Byzantium.

[Vex]

I'm more concerned with physical actions taken by the apostles and Christ in communicating the Gospel (not to discount out of hand the spiritual communications received).

For the Roman Postal Service (I'm tired of writing that out; RPS) were any records kept of transactions? For instance; Marty of Troy Paid 2 bits for a post to Jacob of Greece? Or was it all done without records?

[LDS Guy 1986]

LDS Guy 1986:

By the time the city of Rome fell all the action was in Byzantium.

Sorry for the confusion when I said the fall of Rome I was referring to the fall of both the Western and Eastern Empires which I believe was in the late 400's AD?

[volgadon]

Sorry for the confusion when I said the fall of Rome I was referring to the fall of both the Western and Eastern Empires which I believe was in the late 400's AD?

Byzantium fell in 1453.

[volgadon]

Ideally, one would send a trusted set of individuals as messengers and envoys, or you would entrust a letter to someone headed in the direction you were sending it to. Whether it be on foot, on horseback, or by sea. News could travel fast. It did so from Israel to all the Jewish diaspora in the Jewish Revolt.

Also, Rabbi Akiva travelled for several years to Italy, North Africa, and Babylon raising funds, and quite possibly gaining support for an uprising. Such travels were tedious and perilous, but commonplace. Also, there is the apocryphal story about the Armenian king who heard of Christ and sent envoys to him.

[Vex]

Ideally, one would send a trusted set of individuals as messengers and envoys, or you would entrust a letter to someone headed in the direction you were sending it to. Whether it be on foot, on horseback, or by sea. News could travel fast. It did so from Israel to all the Jewish diaspora in the Jewish Revolt.

Also, Rabbi Akiva travelled for several years to Italy, North Africa, and Babylon raising funds, and quite possibly gaining support for an uprising. Such travels were tedious and perilous, but commonplace. Also, there is the apocryphal story about the Armenian king who heard of Christ and sent envoys to him.

Would envoys only be employed if the individual was well established (whether culturally, and/or monetarily)? I'm curious as to the development and application of the postal routes or distances letters traveled during this time, as it would seem to me that many possibilities can then exist for Gospel doctrines and admonitions from the hand of Christ and his Apostles.

[Cold Steel]

It's an interesting question, but for probably a different reason. In the early days of both the ancient church and the early LDS church, revelation played a large part in communication. In some cases, danger was averted and in others, through the gift of tongues and prophecy, the status of other church groups and gatherings was received via revelation. In other cases, small church groups were warned of impending peril. When Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, many of the saints, and apostles, received the word through revelation and angelic ministrations.

Many of these accounts are written in journals and addresses. You can read many of these accounts in the Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt and the writings of Wilford Woodruff. In the account of the former, the revelation received by Pratt instructed him to withhold all of his proselytizing efforts and lock up all of his materials and return immediately to Nauvoo. He also was told to use his influence to keep a reorganization from happening until the Twelve were able to meet. (This kept Sidney Rigdon from seizing authority he didn't have.)

Outside of that, it was strictly by newspaper and couriers.

[Vex]

It's an interesting question, but for probably a different reason. In the early days of both the ancient church and the early LDS church, revelation played a large part in communication. In some cases, danger was averted and in others, through the gift of tongues and prophecy, the status of other church groups and gatherings was received via revelation. In other cases, small church groups were warned of impending peril. When Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, many of the saints, and apostles, received the word through revelation and angelic ministrations.

Many of these accounts are written in journals and addresses. You can read many of these accounts in the Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt and the writings of Wilford Woodruff. In the account of the former, the revelation received by Pratt instructed him to withhold all of his proselytizing efforts and lock up all of his materials and return immediately to Nauvoo. He also was told to use his influence to keep a reorganization from happening until the Twelve were able to meet. (This kept Sidney Rigdon from seizing authority he didn't have.)

Outside of that, it was strictly by newspaper and couriers.

That's quite interesting. Does this mean that recorded revelation is more accurately kept in journals rather than 'over the pulpit'?

I'm curious because if we apply this to this dispensation we have tithing at St. George. Was it recorded by the prophet, or by the people... If by the people, would it stand to reason that ancient Apostles had their revelations recorded by their audiences rather than themselves?

[Cold Steel]

That's quite interesting. Does this mean that recorded revelation is more accurately kept in journals rather than 'over the pulpit'? I'm curious because if we apply this to this dispensation we have tithing at St. George. Was it recorded by the prophet, or by the people... If by the people, would it stand to reason that ancient Apostles had their revelations recorded by their audiences rather than themselves?

I'm not sure how you arrived at these conclusions, but revelation received by the various Mormon communities was not doctrinal in nature. It had to do with what the other communities had suffered and what lay ahead of them. Revelation also came to the apostles and missionaries telling them where to go in their labors, and to local leaders telling them how to avoid danger.

Daniel Peterson tells the story of a Yugoslavian-born physician he met on his mission to Switzerland, he and his companion met a man with an unusual account. As Petersen recalls it, "Decades before, he had served as a counselor to a priesthood leader in his native country as the communists were consolidating their power there. Several times, he said, this priesthood leader had dreams warning him that members of his congregation needed to flee because the secret police would soon be coming for them. And the man was right every time." The man later fell away, something that confounded Petersen and his companion, having heard his story, but the story the man told them is not unusual for revelation given anciently and in modern times when needed. In some future time when the church is gathered out from cities and communities from all over the world, this sort of revelation will be needed again. And priesthood leaders throughout the church can, and do, still receive revelation over their stewardships.

The revelation a patriarch or bishop receives is no different than the revelation the president of the church receives. In fact, a friend of mine who's a patriarch said the spirit he receives when giving blessings is as if someone were standing next to him whispering the words in his ear.

Bottom line is this: revelation is revelation, but not all revelation is equal. It's a false sectarian notion that every book in the Bible is equal to every other book in the Bible. The Jehovah's Witnesses cite Ecclesiastes to prove that man doesn't have a spirit. But Ecclesiastes is a philosophical work, and not an eschatological one. And the revelation given, if any, that was given to the writer isn't the same that was given to Peter, John or Paul. In like manner, the revelation given to the president of the church may have to do with buying property, building temples, calling church leaders, or it can be the three degrees of glory or work for the dead. Revelation is different, but it all has one source, and most of the revelations received by the president of the church and written down today are, frankly, none of our business (just as how our tithing is spent is none of our business -- tithing really isn't ours if we understand it correctly). And while the revelation given to the church about tithing in St. George was important to the saints in their day, and a good object lesson in ours, it isn't something that should be in the D&C. I'm not even sure it was written down. The RLDS put some pretty boring "revelations" in their Doctrine & Covenants because they felt that every revelation was worthy of publication. We don't feel that way. In fact, if every revelation today was put in the D&C, we'd be hauling it around in wagons.

.

.

[volgadon]

Would envoys only be employed if the individual was well established (whether culturally, and/or monetarily)?

No, they would be employed whenever possible.

I'm curious as to the development and application of the postal routes or distances letters traveled during this time, as it would seem to me that many possibilities can then exist for Gospel doctrines and admonitions from the hand of Christ and his Apostles.

The postal route wasn't cheap. Having a trusted individual convey both the letter and its interpretation was vastly preferable.

[volgadon]

"The New Testament letters are not really letters, though they sometimes have epistolary openings and closings. They are discourses, homilies, rhetorical speeches of various sorts that their authors could not be present to deliver to a particular audience, and so instead they sent a surrogate to proclaim them. These documents would not be handed to just anyone. From what we can tell, Paul expected one of his coworkers, such as Timothy or Titus or Phoebe, to go and orally deliver the contents of the document in a rhetorically effective manner. Only someone skilled in reading seamless prose, and indeed who already knew the contents of the document, could place the emphases in the right places so as to effectively communicate the message."

(Witherington, Ben, III.

[WalkerW]

"The New Testament letters are not really letters, though they sometimes have epistolary openings and closings. They are discourses, homilies, rhetorical speeches of various sorts that their authors could not be present to deliver to a particular audience, and so instead they sent a surrogate to proclaim them. These documents would not be handed to just anyone. From what we can tell, Paul expected one of his coworkers, such as Timothy or Titus or Phoebe, to go and orally deliver the contents of the document in a rhetorically effective manner. Only someone skilled in reading seamless prose, and indeed who already knew the contents of the document, could place the emphases in the right places so as to effectively communicate the message."

(Witherington, Ben, III.

[Vex]

That's pretty good to know.

Is there any secular mentioning of such speeches being found (aka, not in relation to Nero)?

[volgadon]

If anything, the one on Witherington's blog is longer!