Genesis of souls

[tana]

I believe that in order for the paradigm of Deity based creation and the sifting of souls through trials during incarnations, for it to work, there needs be a reason to sift souls.

For souls to *need* sifting, it must be determined that they are ultimately responsible for their actions, deeds and misdeeds. I think that this then requires one to locate by deduction at what point the soul becomes accountable for it's behavior.

More than just accountable though, one has to locate the Genesis point of when and what could cause two similar souls to take divergent paths. What and when is the cause of two identical pieces of intelligence to develop differently

This is my perception of the LDS philosophy on existence:

I believe that the LDS position holds that spirit is "more fine" matter....I don't believe tho that the scripture or LDS philosophy attaches that (more fine matter) to the "uncreated" intelligence.

One takes a piece of eternal uncreated awareness/intelligence out of a stockpile of same. This stockpile is somehow sequestered from everything else with a void of non-existence separating it from being a part of the fabric of everything. (How else does one contain a substance from contaminating it's surroundings without walling it off?)

As per other/previous threads on here I believe many have reached a consensus that this stockpile/pool is a pool of unorganized intelligence, that no *I am awareness* is a separate or a distinct entity/identity in here.

This intelligence is then tied to a materialistic spirit body. My reasoning would say that this is the *Genesis* of the soul/entity/organism. This is the point where it gains it's gender, male or female. From this moment forward this soul is now unique unto itself. From this moment previous....not.

At this moment in eternity the soul has a perfect awareness of it's existence, but it also has *zero* knowledge, memories, experiences. It gains knowledge through experience and it develops personality characteristics from this.

To me, it seems that for this paradigm to work, this concept of entities starting out at some point of zero or minimal experience, and going through incarnations to grow and gain experiences and knowledge....it means knowledge and experiences do not describe the entity. The entity is not a sum of it's parts/experiences. Experiences, knowledge, intellect is not awareness. The two must be completely separate from the other.

The entity can only be described by it's core which is a piece/arm/branch of uncreated intelligence/awareness.....Which can have *zero* personality characteristics. The entity can never be responsible for making a *first choice* causing the chain reaction which eventually shapes it's unique personality...and therefore not deserving of reward or punishment.

Curt

[jadams_4242]

I believe that in order for the paradigm of Deity based creation and the sifting of souls through trials during incarnations, for it to work, there needs be a reason to sift souls.

For souls to *need* sifting, it must be determined that they are ultimately responsible for their actions, deeds and misdeeds. I think that this then requires one to locate by deduction at what point the soul becomes accountable for it's behavior.

More than just accountable though, one has to locate the Genesis point of when and what could cause two similar souls to take divergent paths. What and when is the cause of two identical pieces of intelligence to develop differently

This is my perception of the LDS philosophy on existence:

I believe that the LDS position holds that spirit is "more fine" matter....I don't believe tho that the scripture or LDS philosophy attaches that (more fine matter) to the "uncreated" intelligence.

One takes a piece of eternal uncreated awareness/intelligence out of a stockpile of same. This stockpile is somehow sequestered from everything else with a void of non-existence separating it from being a part of the fabric of everything. (How else does one contain a substance from contaminating it's surroundings without walling it off?)

As per other/previous threads on here I believe many have reached a consensus that this stockpile/pool is a pool of unorganized intelligence, that no *I am awareness* is a separate or a distinct entity/identity in here.

This intelligence is then tied to a materialistic spirit body. My reasoning would say that this is the *Genesis* of the soul/entity/organism. This is the point where it gains it's gender, male or female. From this moment forward this soul is now unique unto itself. From this moment previous....not.

At this moment in eternity the soul has a perfect awareness of it's existence, but it also has *zero* knowledge, memories, experiences. It gains knowledge through experience and it develops personality characteristics from this.

To me, it seems that for this paradigm to work, this concept of entities starting out at some point of zero or minimal experience, and going through incarnations to grow and gain experiences and knowledge....it means knowledge and experiences do not describe the entity. The entity is not a sum of it's parts/experiences. Experiences, knowledge, intellect is not awareness. The two must be completely separate from the other.

The entity can only be described by it's core which is a piece/arm/branch of uncreated intelligence/awareness.....Which can have *zero* personality characteristics. The entity can never be responsible for making a *first choice* causing the chain reaction which eventually shapes it's unique personality...and therefore not deserving of reward or punishment.

Curt

So excatly which "sifting" are we talking about?

[tana]

So excatly which "sifting" are we talking about?

Well, it seems to me that the whole theme of Abrahamic, reward and punishment based religion is to seperate the wheat from the chaf. If souls need to be eternally rewarded or punished and deposed to heaven or a lessor place, it must be because they deserve it. At their core they must not be equal. Some evidently are created with more will power, ambition, ability to *choose the right* than others.

I'm suggesting we try to analyze how this could actually work.

[thesometimesaint]

tana39:

Interesting ideas. But I believe we are ALL capable of the Celestial Kingdom. It just depends are what we are willing to become.

[Lightbearer]

I am not sure this will help answer the OP but consider this:

(Abraham 3:18-28) "Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah. I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him."

It is rather unclear what the nature of intelligences were, but there is a definite distinction that they are all at various levels and have various abilities. The parable of the talents is a good primer to understand how this works. Of those who have more given more is expected, yet all are capable of the highest reward, at least those who passed their first estate are... those who passed that test (yes even the premortal existence was part of this test)so our being here is proof that we passed. If we do well here, then we will have glory added upon our heads forever and ever. This is all determined by our agency and how we use it. The atonement of Christ is the means whereby we can be perfected in spite of our weaknesses, frailties and mistakes. Christ was also our perfect example and as we try to follow Him relying upon His power and conforming to His will, we can be made holy as He is holy and become a joint-heir with Him.

[CV75]

The entity can only be described by it's core which is a piece/arm/branch of uncreated intelligence/awareness.....Which can have *zero* personality characteristics. The entity can never be responsible for making a *first choice* causing the chain reaction which eventually shapes it's unique personality...and therefore not deserving of reward or punishment.

If we are co-eternal with God, then we always possessed agency (the basis of existence). Our choices were limited to only good choices between good things, resulting in certain good consequences and progress (noting that not all good consequences are identical, but variation and differences in the type of goodness or talent all glorify God) until we progressed to the point of understanding God better, and understanding His creations, how they operated and fared, etc. Once we became aware of this and could choose better or worse choices between good and evil things, the "punishment and reward" kicked in.

As long as there is existence, and truth acts for itself, there is no basis to assume that all truth is homogeneous in its expression, and so whatever form we ever existed in would not need to be homogeneous 9or identical with another), either.

[tana]

I feel that if one takes the position of the Genesis of the soul from where the OP places it, and moves it back, takes it even further back....back into the pool of uncreated intelligence, it makes it impossible to locate a *Genesis*. Your basically saying then that the soul has existed as is, with it's own uniqueness eternally. It has no beginning.

This scenario would bring up questions in my mind as to..... How can there be any seniority, since god and his god before him and we are all in this same timeless state?

After an eternity of existence in this timeless state it seems strange to think that an entity could somehow develop power and seniority over *only* entities under him and could now send them off to be tested, sorted and sent off to a final eternal disposition.

Also if one pushes a uniqueness and separation of entities back into this eternal sea/pool we run into the issues talked about in an earlier thread; (How exactly does spirit understand it's environment) ( I don't think that thread made the cut).

The theory tho being that if one divides awareness up and isolates a piece of this awareness unto itself, it is going to need a *vehicle* to be nested in to be able to understand and communicate with it's environment. Which simply creates another incarnation and pushes *Genesis* of identity back yet another step.

[CV75]

I feel that if one takes the position of the Genesis of the soul from where the OP places it, and moves it back, takes it even further back....back into the pool of uncreated intelligence, it makes it impossible to locate a *Genesis*. Your basically saying then that the soul has existed as is, with it's own uniqueness eternally. It has no beginning.

This scenario would bring up questions in my mind as to..... How can there be any seniority, since god and his god before him and we are all in this same timeless state?

After an eternity of existence in this timeless state it seems strange to think that an entity could somehow develop power and seniority over *only* entities under him and could now send them off to be tested, sorted and sent off to a final eternal disposition.

Also if one pushes a uniqueness and separation of entities back into this eternal sea/pool we run into the issues talked about in an earlier thread; (How exactly does spirit understand it's environment) ( I don't think that thread made the cut).

The theory tho being that if one divides awareness up and isolates a piece of this awareness unto itself, it is going to need a *vehicle* to be nested in to be able to understand and communicate with it's environment. Which simply creates another incarnation and pushes *Genesis* of identity back yet another step.

Yes, I

[tana]

The only problem I see with this tho is.... it seems like it makes eternity linear... *Beginning* We take uncreated identities existing for countless eons *stop* and in what amounts to a blink of the eye in the souls eternity, put them into physical bodies to test and judge them. *stop* Send them off to final dispositions. *End* ....of progression for many.

With this system it seems like one would eventually, with the help of eternity, run out of individuals to put into final dispositions. There doesn't appear to be any system or loop to replenish the supply.

Especially if one were to restrict ourselves to this system only. There is a finite amount of souls available. That's based on the theory that one third of the *whole* were cast out.

I too think that we have our own uncreated identities. I just think tho that we are all a part/branch/arm of the one. An eddy in a river is unique unto itself, but still one with the river.

I just don't see eternity stopping and making a right turn....doing something else for a while.

[CV75]

The only problem I see with this tho is.... it seems like it makes eternity linear... *Beginning* We take uncreated identities existing for countless eons *stop* and in what amounts to a blink of the eye in the souls eternity, put them into physical bodies to test and judge them. *stop* Send them off to final dispositions. *End* ....of progression for many.

With this system it seems like one would eventually, with the help of eternity, run out of individuals to put into final dispositions. There doesn't appear to be any system or loop to replenish the supply.

Especially if one were to restrict ourselves to this system only. There is a finite amount of souls available. That's based on the theory that one third of the *whole* were cast out.

I too think that we have our own uncreated identities. I just think tho that we are all a part/branch/arm of the one. An eddy in a river is unique unto itself, but still one with the river.

I just don't see eternity stopping and making a right turn....doing something else for a while.

I don't think eternity stops and makes a right turn, but we do. I don't think eternity is linear, but it accommodates linear behavior and packets or groupings of existence (packed, grouped and defined only by perception--the more one can perceive, of course, the more one sees packets as one with a larger river, and linear experience is essential to the development of perception, if only through comparison and contrast (opposition in all things). So a blink of an eye is all it takes. Perhaps a touch of linearity is the vehicle for eternal awareness.

[tana]

The problem I see with this tho is it doesn't provide a loop, a way to replenish the source.

I have existence at it's core as *one* eternal uncreated immeasurable consciousness/awareness, with branches of this awareness experiencing physicality.

I perceive you to have existence as innumerable separate uncreated consciousness/entities, moving through incarnations to gain and add to themselves tacked on experiences. To then be tested, rated and sent to final disposition.

Your program must always have an infinite number of souls in reserve and waiting to go thru the system, but never will. Otherwise eventually, with the help of eternity your program would run out of souls to incarnate.

[CV75]

The problem I see with this tho is it doesn't provide a loop, a way to replenish the source.

I have existence at it's core as *one* eternal uncreated immeasurable consciousness/awareness, with branches of this awareness experiencing physicality.

I perceive you to have existence as innumerable separate uncreated consciousness/entities, moving through incarnations to gain and add to themselves tacked on experiences. To then be tested, rated and sent to final disposition.

Your program must always have an infinite number of souls in reserve and waiting to go thru the system, but never will. Otherwise eventually, with the help of eternity your program would run out of souls to incarnate.

The eternal round may provide the loop in the following way: An eternal source does not need to be supplied externally, and there are no new beings (all are co-eternal), only advancement in the expressions of the same beings. Perhaps a certain expression takes the form of being in innumerable places at once (the double-split experiment; Cleland and Martinis

[tana]

The eternal round may provide the loop in the following way: An eternal source does not need to be supplied externally, and there are no new beings (all are co-eternal), only advancement in the expressions of the same beings. Perhaps a certain expression takes the form of being in innumerable places at once (the double-split experiment; Cleland and Martinis

[CV75]

Thank you for the conversation!

[SkepticTheist]

As for searching for what this "stuff" is that makes up a human intelligence, I find it useful to simply use what we know from the physical, natural world as a parallel. Bodies are born, and a brain functions having rational thought as a function of its structure. Before it was born, it was just an egg and a sperm that combined and divided and grew from bringing in "stuff" from its environment to build itself with, self organizing.

If spirits are simply born, as I see no reason that they should not be, then the "stuff" that they are made up of is simply the stuff that they are made of from the spiritual environment. And that is "spirit", unorganized, and it stands to reason that that "stuff," once put in a certain form, as in the form of a brain, can function as a rational being. Before that time, there is no mind to function, just "stuff" without the form needed to function in that manner. Like a bunch of car parts that can run until its all put together. So I think that it is possible that there is a "mind" before spirit birth made of "intelligence," but I would bet that it is actually the fact that intelligences are "organized" into a shape and form of a "mind" that gives that intelligence the attributes it needs to function as such. So perhaps there is no beginning to intelligence and self, but perhaps there is a beginning to organized form, and therefore organized functionality as a "mind."

My two cents.

Ed Goble

I believe that in order for the paradigm of Deity based creation and the sifting of souls through trials during incarnations, for it to work, there needs be a reason to sift souls.

For souls to *need* sifting, it must be determined that they are ultimately responsible for their actions, deeds and misdeeds. I think that this then requires one to locate by deduction at what point the soul becomes accountable for it's behavior.

More than just accountable though, one has to locate the Genesis point of when and what could cause two similar souls to take divergent paths. What and when is the cause of two identical pieces of intelligence to develop differently

This is my perception of the LDS philosophy on existence:

I believe that the LDS position holds that spirit is "more fine" matter....I don't believe tho that the scripture or LDS philosophy attaches that (more fine matter) to the "uncreated" intelligence.

One takes a piece of eternal uncreated awareness/intelligence out of a stockpile of same. This stockpile is somehow sequestered from everything else with a void of non-existence separating it from being a part of the fabric of everything. (How else does one contain a substance from contaminating it's surroundings without walling it off?)

As per other/previous threads on here I believe many have reached a consensus that this stockpile/pool is a pool of unorganized intelligence, that no *I am awareness* is a separate or a distinct entity/identity in here.

This intelligence is then tied to a materialistic spirit body. My reasoning would say that this is the *Genesis* of the soul/entity/organism. This is the point where it gains it's gender, male or female. From this moment forward this soul is now unique unto itself. From this moment previous....not.

At this moment in eternity the soul has a perfect awareness of it's existence, but it also has *zero* knowledge, memories, experiences. It gains knowledge through experience and it develops personality characteristics from this.

To me, it seems that for this paradigm to work, this concept of entities starting out at some point of zero or minimal experience, and going through incarnations to grow and gain experiences and knowledge....it means knowledge and experiences do not describe the entity. The entity is not a sum of it's parts/experiences. Experiences, knowledge, intellect is not awareness. The two must be completely separate from the other.

The entity can only be described by it's core which is a piece/arm/branch of uncreated intelligence/awareness.....Which can have *zero* personality characteristics. The entity can never be responsible for making a *first choice* causing the chain reaction which eventually shapes it's unique personality...and therefore not deserving of reward or punishment.

Curt