D&C 132: 41

[zelder]

What do you all think of this analysis?

http://latterdaymain...-heaven-dc-132/

Polygamy never bothered me untill I read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, and I came to the realization that Joseph Smith sealed himself to women who were already married. However, it looks like D&C 132 authorizes this activity.

[BCSpace]

However, it looks like D&C 132 authorizes this activity.

I don't agree that there was actual polyandry. 2 Samuel 12:11 is more like D&C 132:41.

[zelder]

I don't agree that there was actual polyandry. 2 Samuel 12:11 is more like D&C 132:41.

Are you saying that the wives Joseph Smith married who were already married belonged to men that were unworthy and therefore the Lord took them and gave them to Joseph Smith?

[TAO]

zelder, I wouldn't actually say it is the order of heaven - that much hasn't been revealed yet. However, it has been said that when by the 'holy anointing' (in D&C 132 terms), wives may need to be given to others.

I trust the Lord has a good reason for it =). Wouldn't call it an order of heaven though - I don't know if the 'holy anointing' was used all that commonly.

[zelder]

This is a very difficult thing for me but I'm starting to open my mind up to the possibility that women can have multiple husbands. I don't think BCSpace's argument can hold water because one of the women Joseph married was Orson Hyde's wife. Joseph did this while Hyde was on his mission and Hyde went on to become the president of the quoram of the twelve. I don't think Hyde could be considered unworthy. Marinda Johnson Hyde/Smith had two husbands.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

[semlogo]

This is a very difficult thing for me but I'm starting to open my mind up to the possibility that women can have multiple husbands. I don't think BCSpace's argument can hold water because one of the women Joseph married was Orson Hyde's wife. Joseph did this while Hyde was on his mission and Hyde went on to become the president of the quoram of the twelve. I don't think Hyde could be considered unworthy. Marinda Johnson Hyde/Smith had two husbands.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

I've never heard that before. Are you sure that isn't a myth?

[zelder]

I've never heard that before. Are you sure that isn't a myth?

There is no doubt that Smith married women what were already married to living husbands. The only thing I don't know is whether or not these women were sealed to two husbands at the same time. Current church policy forbids women from being sealed to more than one husband but I'm starting to wonder if that is what Joseph Smith intended.

[zelder]

Maybe I was wrong. I found and interesting explaination of this difficult subject.

http://www.fairlds.o...s/polyandry.pdf

I'm still confused about what the holy anointing means in verse 41 of Section 132. If anyone has info on that please enghlighten me.

[TAO]

Maybe I was wrong. I found and interesting explaination of this difficult subject.

http://www.fairlds.o...s/polyandry.pdf

I'm still confused about what the holy anointing means in verse 41 of Section 132. If anyone has info on that please enghlighten me.

I posted about it in your other thread. =)

[zelder]

I posted about it in your other thread. =)

Thankyou very much for that link. When the topic of polygamy comes up, I often hear women complain that if men can have multiple wives, why can't women have multiple husbands? I used to scoff at that but I have learned that some women actually would like to have multiple husbands. Even more suprising to me was when I learned that some men have a desire to share their wives with other men. I have to ask myself, maybe polyandry really not so unnatural. Would god condemn a man who was willing and desirous to share his wive with another man in a committed marriage? Its not as productive (childbearing wise) but I think it could still be a sucessfull and loving family relationship. Why not?

[erichard]

...Polygamy never bothered me untill I read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, and I came to the realization that Joseph Smith sealed himself to women who were already married. However, it looks like D&C 132 authorizes this activity.

Hi zelder,

My conviction is that a woman can be sealed to one man for time, and to another man for eternity.

Since Joseph had multiple women sealed to him for eternity, and since he was not in the position economically to take care of all of them (and besides, would soon leave the earth) then these women were sealed to other men for time.

Very simple, actually.

Richard

[BCSpace]

Are you saying that the wives Joseph Smith married who were already married belonged to men that were unworthy and therefore the Lord took them and gave them to Joseph Smith?

Not necessarily. I am saying that apparent polyandry on paper wasn't actual polyandry in reality.

I don't think BCSpace's argument can hold water because one of the women Joseph married was Orson Hyde's wife.

I wasn't making that argument though I can see why one would think so. That is why I said it was "like" D&C 132:41. Not the same in all details, but a scriptural example of wives being given to another.

[jcake]

We all know of times when a woman is widowed, then marries another. She has great love for both of these husbands. Would it really be somehow wrong for her to have two husbands in the eternities, if it is right for a man to have two wives? Why would it be inherently wrong for things to work both ways? Perhaps it's just the thinking of those of a culture and background that have taught them that men are of more value than women, who can't imagine a woman being allowed to have the same blessings a man might be given in these circumstances.

Is there any logical argument why this could not happen?

[Nathair/|\]

We all know of times when a woman is widowed, then marries another. She has great love for both of these husbands. Would it really be somehow wrong for her to have two husbands in the eternities, if it is right for a man to have two wives? Why would it be inherently wrong for things to work both ways? Perhaps it's just the thinking of those of a culture and background that have taught them that men are of more value than women, who can't imagine a woman being allowed to have the same blessings a man might be given in these circumstances.

Is there any logical argument why this could not happen?

The only thing I can think of is if it matters that a male can impregnate multiple females at one time, but a female can only be impregnated by one male at a time without unusual aid. I doubt it does in the eternities, though.

[Curtis Weber]

I haven't read the FAIR paper, but Andrew Ehat's two papers on the subject

[BCSpace]

The only thing I can think of is if it matters that a male can impregnate multiple females at one time, but a female can only be impregnated by one male at a time without unusual aid. I doubt it does in the eternities, though.

Well, there is a tension between the notions that on the one hand the desires God has placed within us are good and on the other hand that the natural man is an enemy to God. So if it is true that men are prone to the desire of spreading their seed around and women are prone to the desire of being with one man, then it may follow that plural marriage is part of God's ultimate design.

Of course every time I speculate along these lines, at least in the non-virtual world, I am accused of being an avid supporter of polygamy.......

[Deborah]

I don't think we fully understand the sealing powers and how they work. We will all somehow be linked together but how it actually works is speculation at this point. Even Joseph Smith didn't fully understand the sealing of husbands and wives which is why people were sealed to whomever until a later prophet changed it.

[zelder]

We all know of times when a woman is widowed, then marries another. She has great love for both of these husbands. Would it really be somehow wrong for her to have two husbands in the eternities, if it is right for a man to have two wives? Why would it be inherently wrong for things to work both ways? Perhaps it's just the thinking of those of a culture and background that have taught them that men are of more value than women, who can't imagine a woman being allowed to have the same blessings a man might be given in these circumstances.

Is there any logical argument why this could not happen?

I used to scoff at this but now I am becoming more open minded about the possibility. There are always women who complain that they can't have multiple husbands and surprisingly men who would like to share their wives. There seems to be a lot of people who might enjoy this type of arrangement. I'm begining to think that they should be allowed to have what they want. If they don't care about having lots of kids and don't care about whos kid is whos what should I care? Polyandry has history of working in places like Nepal and Africa.

[zelder]

I don't think we fully understand the sealing powers and how they work. We will all somehow be linked together but how it actually works is speculation at this point. Even Joseph Smith didn't fully understand the sealing of husbands and wives which is why people were sealed to whomever until a later prophet changed it.

I agree, we don't understand it. I wish I could look into heaven for just 10 minutes and see what its like there.

[daz2]

A woman may be sealed to all of her husbands after death (even a woman who was and still is sealed to a husband while living). A man may be sealed to all of his wives as well.

I cannot think of any reason while all of those sealings cannot have effect in the hereafter, assuming the various parties are worthy.

That means potentially not just polygamy and polyandry, but polyamory as well (e.g., husband A married wife B and after her death wife C; after husband A's death, wife C marries husband D).

I suspect conundrums like this are why either Jesus or those who wrote his words avoided answering the question about the sealing status of a woman married serially to multiple men.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What do you all think of this analysis?

http://latterdaymain...-heaven-dc-132/

Polygamy never bothered me untill I read Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, and I came to the realization that Joseph Smith sealed himself to women who were already married. However, it looks like D&C 132 authorizes this activity.

I would ask you to keep on thing in mind. That is that a sealing is not the same thing as a marriage.

[zelder]

A woman may be sealed to all of her husbands after death (even a woman who was and still is sealed to a husband while living).

How do you know? Current church policy allows widowers to be sealed to a new wife who was not sealed to anyone but I thought that women were only allowed to be sealed to one man.

[daz2]

Zelder, the policy is in the handbook (to which I understand we are not allowed to refer--sorry about that) but it is also found on familysearch.org and is described at this publicly accessible website: http://familyhistorylab.byu.edu/Lesson1.php

Deceased women married more than once

You may have a deceased woman sealed to all men to whom she was legally married. However, if she was sealed to a husband during her life, all her husbands must be deceased before she can be sealed to a husband to whom she was not sealed during life.

[daz2]

BTW, one of the things the reviewer did not like on one of my earlier proposed answers about polygamy was my reference to the policy of permitting women to be sealed to all of their husbands. "Milk before meat" they wrote.

[zelder]

Zelder, the policy is in the handbook (to which I understand we are not allowed to refer--sorry about that) but it is also found on familysearch.org and is described at this publicly accessible website: http://familyhistory...edu/Lesson1.php

Wow, well there we have it. Mormons engage in polygyny, polyandry, group marriage etc. Indeed milk before meat is a good idea I think. Its pretty heavy stuff. You could get the idea that heaven is a big swingers party.