Faith Vs. Science

[caudicus]

Its significance is.

...

And yet you apparently decline to explain to us how morality can be deduced from the chemical analysis of a mutton chop, the population density of cheetahs in east Africa, or the strength of the weak nuclear force.

...

Quite so. Which rather undercuts your attempt to portray people like me as blithely irrational fantasists, doesn't it?

What is the significance?

Einstein said it best:

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.

- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930

Do you disagree?

Perhaps you are a blithe irrational fantasist, perhaps not. I think most people consider Mormons to be. Ironically, many of those people have beliefs that are just as wacky.

[jbelli21]

depends on what religion you're talking about. Mormonism? as far as you believe in scientific theories that support your biased religious opinions. So if you're really asking can science and mormonism coexist, then no. Just about every major belief or hot topic in mormonism is at odds with the scientific community (e.i bom historicity, literal interpretations of the bible, homosexuality, etc. etc. etc.)

This is something I was thinking the other day. Politics and religion are similar in that they are both extremely dogmatic, opinionated, and inflexible and don't take critique or criticism very easily. Which is the reason why I like to go mostly with science. Science has no ego, it's open to criticism and demands to be critiqued, tried, and tested. Something religion refuses to do.

[Deborah]

Do you disagree?

Einstein made the same mistake many non-religionists make in that you believe that the reason a believer does what he does is for his reward in heaven, or to escape some eternal punishment. Perhaps some hell-fire and damnation preachers have put that fear into people but most believers I know, in and out of the church, do what they do out of love for others and for their Savior. They are not thinking about gathering points for heaven. This is a false idea that non-believers like to perpetuate because it gives them a sense of superiority.

Perhaps you are a blithe irrational fantasist, perhaps not. I think most people consider Mormons to be.

"Most" people? Kind of hard to believe when Mormons are so successful in science, business, law and other enterprises that require a great deal of rational thought and expertise and when their co-workers hold them in such high esteem for their successes.

[44Foxtrot]

"Most" people? Kind of hard to believe when Mormons are so successful in science, business, law and other enterprises that require a great deal of rational thought and expertise and when their co-workers hold them in such high esteem for their successes.

Deborah,

Perhaps you live in Utah or Southern Idaho.

Where we live in Florida and where I travel around the country, I would have to say that Caudicus' comments hold true, especially since Prop 8.

IMHO, the Church and most of its Utah and Southern Idaho members have no inkling of the extent and depth of the self-inflicted damage from the Prop 8 fiasco.

The attitude out there toward Mormons has shifted substantially in the last few years, and not for the better. When this issue makes it to the Mormon Times, you know there must be a problem.

[Deborah]

IMHO, the Church and most of its Utah and Southern Idaho members have no inkling of the extent and depth of the self-inflicted damage from the Prop 8 fiasco.

The attitude out there toward Mormons has shifted substantially in the last few years, and not for the better. When this issue makes it to the Mormon Times, you know there must be a problem.

Wow, where did that come from? The issue being discussed was the success of Mormons in fields that require a great deal of rational thought and expertise to counter the irrational claims that they are mere fantasists and you bring up an emotional issue. Contrary to the impression given by the propagandists Mormons were only a fraction of those who supported this. Furthermore it's irrelevant to the discussion.

People who don't like Mormons, when they don't know any, because of an emotional issue, particularly as explained by the propagandists, are not on the same level as people who respond to Mormons they work closely with.

[Daniel Peterson]

It's

[44Foxtrot]

Indeed. The modest and civil manner in which, repeatedly, across multiple threads, you've pronounced theists irrational fantasists, insinuated that our moral positions ought not be expressed in the democratic public square, declared those who defend religious positions to be disingenuous pseudoscholars, suggested that religious thinkers aren't really thinkers at all, hinted that we're psychologically and intellectually handicapped, announced that religious people are a menace to morality and that their existence poses risks for the future of humanity, and advocated discrimination against believing but otherwise qualified scientists in the workplace has been truly heartwarming.

I'm not "threatened" by scientistic dogmatism, and I don't disagree with you because, slave-like, I'm not "allowed" to recognize The Truth. (Can you really not see how remarkably demeaning, dismissive, and disrespectful your characterizations are and have been from your first appearance here?) I disagree with you because I think you're wrong. But there are plenty of wrong positions on this board. You caught my attention by the breathtaking hubris of your manner.

Fair comment.

Why could you not have you just said as much instead of resorting to petty mockery?

I do not agree with most of what you say here, but at least your latest comments are not mocking in tone.

Reading your latest post, I get the feeling that you believe religionists should not be held to account for their false beliefs and the harm they do in the world. If this is indeed the case, why is it that you believe religion should get a pass on demonstrably false assertions in support of their moral judgments and unfounded beliefs in ways that would never be tolerated in secular life?

[Daniel Peterson]

Why could you not have you just said as much instead of resorting to petty mockery?

I've said it. Repeatedly. You weren't listening.

The mockery was very gentle. But I promise you that, whenever I see an overly inflated balloon, I'll be strongly inclined to prick it.

Reading your latest post, I get the feeling that you believe religionists should not be held to account for their false beliefs and the harm they do in the world. If this is indeed the case, why is it that you believe religion should get a pass on demonstrably false assertions in support of their moral judgments and unfounded beliefs in ways that would never be tolerated in secular life?

I'm fully in favor of respectful, civil discussion and disagreement, advocate no "free pass" for anybody, and believe that everybody and everything should be held accountable.

That includes you.

[TAO]

IMHO, the Church and most of its Utah and Southern Idaho members have no inkling of the extent and depth of the self-inflicted damage from the Prop 8 fiasco.

Not very much damage, actually =P. I live in Cali, and it is just fine.

[44Foxtrot]

Wow, where did that come from? The issue being discussed was the success of Mormons in fields that require a great deal of rational thought and expertise to counter the irrational claims that they are mere fantasists and you bring up an emotional issue. Contrary to the impression given by the propagandists Mormons were only a fraction of those who supported this. Furthermore it's irrelevant to the discussion.

People who don't like Mormons, when they don't know any, because of an emotional issue, particularly as explained by the propagandists, are not on the same level as people who respond to Mormons they work closely with.

I like the Mormons I work closely with. They include my wife. If I did not like them, I would not marry them, hire them, or work with them.

However, that was not the point. Your assertion was that caudicus was wide of the mark when he commented on the deteriorating reputation of the Mormon Church. I claim that he was accurate in his statement and offered some anecdotal evidence from Mormon Times in support.

[TAO]

However, that was not the point. Your assertion was that caudicus was wide of the mark when he commented on the deteriorating reputation of the Mormon Church.

Actually, from what I've seen (again, coming from Conservative Orange County), this isn't happening much. People tend to respect us politely, there are some who rant, but there are a greater number who treat us very kindly.

I claim that he was accurate in his statement and offered some anecdotal evidence from Mormon Times in support.

I disagree based on personal experience.

[44Foxtrot]

Not very much damage, actually =P. I live in Cali, and it is just fine.

Not what I heard. Recent anecdotal evidence that all may not be as well as it seems includes a standing ovation given to a relatively unknown performer at a recent concert in California merely on the announcement that he had recently left the Mormon Church. These accolades were offered before he ever sang a note. Of course, those attending the concert were probably liberal Democrats, but still.

[TAO]

Not what I heard. Recent anecdotal evidence that all may not be as well as it seems includes a standing ovation given to a relatively unknown performer at a recent concert in California merely on the announcement that he had recently left the Mormon Church.

Where in Cali?

These accolades were offered before he ever sang a note. Of course, those attending the concert were probably liberal Democrats, but still.

Na, on the other hand, these people were probably not all that familiar with Mormons. I don't base it on people's political parties.

[thesometimesaint]

[44Foxtrot]

I'm fully in favor of respectful, civil discussion and disagreement, advocate no "free pass" for anybody, and believe that everybody and everything should be held accountable.

That includes you.

Great. I thought as much.

So, unless you believe that I have made factually incorrect statements regarding the LDS Church, why would you feel that I have been disrespectful or have offended you?

[44Foxtrot]

Where in Cali?

Berkeley. (Wouldn't you know it.)

[Jeff K.]

Deborah,

Perhaps you live in Utah or Southern Idaho.

Where we live in Florida and where I travel around the country, I would have to say that Caudicus' comments hold true, especially since Prop 8.

IMHO, the Church and most of its Utah and Southern Idaho members have no inkling of the extent and depth of the self-inflicted damage from the Prop 8 fiasco.

The attitude out there toward Mormons has shifted substantially in the last few years, and not for the better. When this issue makes it to the Mormon Times, you know there must be a problem.

Florida isn't quite known for its intellectual capacity. Indeed, there are more than a few first cousins who marry there. Foxy sounds like he hails from the Jacksonville section.

Florida, I guess that is where failed rationalists go.

Meanwhile the University of Utah has one of the best medical schools in the nation. University of Florida did give us Gatorade. BYU has some excellent cutting edge research in large-scale molecular simulations of electrocatalysis. Florida Universities, oh yes, they come up with techniques for passing sobriety tests at check points after frat parties.

Yes, Foxy must be so proud of his Florida. They are so cutting edge socially. I mean Miami Vice just shines as a show on intellectual rationalism. Probably what Florida is most famous for, other than subsidized sugar industry and a check point for cocain and marijuana distribution into the US.

I kind of understand foxy's prejudice now, it is the same type held against minorities in that state for years, a kind of stereotypical broadbrush approach that is somewhat embarrassing when you look at it. The prejudicial manner in which he refuses to hire people for his firm shows more than a lack of rationality and more than a bit of that good old boy southern prejudice that some many southerners have spent years attempting to shake from their reputations. And yet here is another southern resident going back to the same old method.

Well we shouldn't paint all southerners with foxy's stripe. The fact is that Latter Day Saints seem to be in more leadership positions, industrial positions, education positions in the south than ever before. They continue to grow in the South. It may be that foxy was once fired from a company and has decided on a personal vendetta which he cloaks with a veneer of faux objectivism. But it doesn't work when you make irrational statements Fox, you should know that.

Anyway go back to your Margarita, sip it with your good old boys and let the rest of the south pass you by. I am sure Jacksonville needs you. Or at least Sawgrass does.

[Daniel Peterson]

So, unless you believe that I have made factually incorrect statements regarding the LDS Church, why would you feel that I have been disrespectful or have offended you?

Good grief. Are you serious?

Your posts, from the moment that I first encountered them, have been insulting, contemptuous, and dismissive.

You haven't noticed the astonished reactions of many here to what they termed your "arrogance" and "hubris," and have missed the fact that several simply decline to interact with you any more?

[Jaybear]

Good grief. Are you serious?

Your posts, from the moment that I first encountered them, have been insulting, contemptuous, and dismissive.

You haven't noticed the astonished reactions of many here to what they termed your "arrogance" and "hubris," and have missed the fact that several simply decline to interact with you any more?

According to Dan, among other things, "you've pronounced theists irrational fantasists", you have "insinuated that our moral positions ought not be expressed in the democratic public square", you have "suggested that religious thinkers aren't really thinkers at all", you have "advocated discrimination", and you have accused them of being "psychologically and intellectually handicapped."

Those are outrageous fighting words, even if you didn't actually say them.

[44Foxtrot]

Good grief. Are you serious?

Your posts, from the moment that I first encountered them, have been insulting, contemptuous, and dismissive.

You haven't noticed the astonished reactions of many here to what they termed your "arrogance" and "hubris," and have missed the fact that several simply decline to interact with you any more?

You have not answered my question. If you claim that religion should not get a pass for false assertions in support of unfounded belief, then there should be no offense or disrespect in describing or discussing these.

I suppose that the perceived disrespect could come when individuals do not agree on what assertions are false and which beliefs are unfounded. As I see it, it boils down to facts and evidence.

So again, if I have not made statements of fact that are incorrect, and you agree that religion should not get a pass, I think we are talking about personal perception here. If facts make people uncomfortable or feel offended, who is really responsible?

[Jeff K.]

Is foxy telling us that if something cannot be proven it must be false? This is rational?

I suppose that the perceived disrespect could come when individuals do not agree on what assertions are false and which beliefs are unfounded. As I see it, it boils down to facts and evidence.

Ever since I saw your posts as to how you deny people certain jobs based on their religion I have found you confirming your prejudice which in its essence is irrational and disrespectful.

Might I add as someone with German Jewish ancestry I find people of your ilk most disturbing.

[44Foxtrot]

Florida isn't quite known for its intellectual capacity. Indeed, there are more than a few first cousins who marry there. Foxy sounds like he hails from the Jacksonville section.

Florida, I guess that is where failed rationalists go.

Meanwhile the University of Utah has one of the best medical schools in the nation. University of Florida did give us Gatorade. BYU has some excellent cutting edge research in large-scale molecular simulations of electrocatalysis. Florida Universities, oh yes, they come up with techniques for passing sobriety tests at check points after frat parties.

Yes, Foxy must be so proud of his Florida. They are so cutting edge socially. I mean Miami Vice just shines as a show on intellectual rationalism. Probably what Florida is most famous for, other than subsidized sugar industry and a check point for cocain and marijuana distribution into the US.

I kind of understand foxy's prejudice now, it is the same type held against minorities in that state for years, a kind of stereotypical broadbrush approach that is somewhat embarrassing when you look at it. The prejudicial manner in which he refuses to hire people for his firm shows more than a lack of rationality and more than a bit of that good old boy southern prejudice that some many southerners have spent years attempting to shake from their reputations. And yet here is another southern resident going back to the same old method.

Well we shouldn't paint all southerners with foxy's stripe. The fact is that Latter Day Saints seem to be in more leadership positions, industrial positions, education positions in the south than ever before. They continue to grow in the South. It may be that foxy was once fired from a company and has decided on a personal vendetta which he cloaks with a veneer of faux objectivism. But it doesn't work when you make irrational statements Fox, you should know that.

Anyway go back to your Margarita, sip it with your good old boys and let the rest of the south pass you by. I am sure Jacksonville needs you. Or at least Sawgrass does.

Jeff,

This has to be one of your most thoughtful and brilliant posts yet.

You are correct about the quality of the schools in Florida. We raised and educated our children in the Boston area or in Washington State when we lived in the US, and why most of my children attended the University of Washington (the others attended BYU). Unfortunately that is about all you got right.

Because I co-own a company that provides products and services internationally, I could live about anywhere I choose. I live in Florida now because of the climate and proximity to tropical oceans for sailing. My wife and I also own a home in Washington State, most of my children live there and our company has a laboratory facility there.

Far from being a failed rationalist, my ex-Mormon business partner and I are doing quite well.

As I have stated on this board before, nobody in our company that I know of sips alcohol of any kind, including Margaritas, and we live nowhere close to Jacksonville.

BTW: What possessed you to write something like this? Did you really think you were correct in assuming that I lived in Jacksonville and that I sipped Margaritas ? Were you just trying to insult me? Do you understand that you have just provided a prime example of the kind of thinking that Dr. Peterson claims is not typical of Mormons?

[TAO]

Berkeley. (Wouldn't you know it.)

Well then you have your answer, don't you?

[44Foxtrot]

Is foxy telling us that if something cannot be proven it must be false? This is rational?

Ever since I saw your posts as to how you deny people certain jobs based on their religion I have found you confirming your prejudice which in its essence is irrational and disrespectful.

Might I add as someone with German Jewish ancestry I find people of your ilk most disturbing.

Jeff,

You were not paying attention. We do not deny people jobs based on religion. We elect not to hire people based on certain exhibited behaviors that we know from experience to be detrimental to our business. To do so is our right and our responsibility to our customers and shareholders.

The fact that certain of these behaviors may be associated with religiousity should be no more noteworthy than the fact that some of them are associated with drug use or alcoholism.

I have explained this several times. I would have thought you would have gotten it by now.

[44Foxtrot]

Well then you have your answer, don't you?

As I said. (You asked.)