For the elects sake

[Zakuska]

According to calvanism some have been saved because they are the elect and the rest have been damned, and there is nothing anyone can do about it one way or the other.

Why then was Paul doing so much?

2 Tim 2

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect

[Libs]

According to calvanism some have been saved because they are the elect and the rest have been damned, and there is nothing anyone can do about it one way or the other.

Why then was Paul doing so much?

2 Tim 2

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect

[ELF1024]

Okay, for starters, I am not a Calvinist, but I have studied this system of belief, and at one time thought it actually did fit in quite well with what the Bible says about God.

From a Calvinist perspective, Paul's "doing" was actually Christ working through him to draw the elect to him. The elect "will be" saved, but it's a process that requires bringing them to repentance and to Christ. Paul is being used as a part of that process. Those who are elect will hear him. Those who are not, will not.

So if I understand you.... everything is determined before hand and nothing we do in this life matters, because your either "elect" or your not. So much for freewill or grace.

[Magyar]

It is interesting that St. Augustine (circa 5th century AD) seemed to favor something of a Calvinist line of thinking, although Catholicism (correct me if I am wrong) supports free will. In his City of God, he speaks of our deserved damnation, a fully fair outcome for our sins, and how God chooses some of us but not others, and since we all deserved damnation, it is not unfair of Him to select whom He will redeem.

But I personally find that a hideous doctrine. Why would a just and loving God not elect EVERYBODY if he could elect SOMEBODY? If our free will is not the determining factor?

[Zakuska]

But I personally find that a hideous doctrine. Why would a just and loving God not elect EVERYBODY if he could elect SOMEBODY? If our free will is not the determining factor?

I couldn't agree more...

1 Tim 2

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If God's "will" is that ALL men be saved. That tells me that ALL are elect in his eyes. Then the only determining factor left is our own free will.

God redeemed ALL mankind, but not all will be saved... and why not?

Doctrine and Covenants 10:21

And their hearts are corrupt, and full of wickedness and abominations; and they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil; therefore they will not ask of me.

[Libs]

So if I understand you.... everything is determined before hand and nothing we do in this life matters, because your either "elect" or your not. So much for freewill or grace.

Yeah, I don't really care for that line of thinking, either (and I don't believe it), but there is a lot in scripture that supports it (especially in the New Testament).

[Hughes]

Election has to do with God's foreknowledge, not controlling what people will do, but knowing what they will do.

Romans 8:29, "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

[ElderDarionBevan]

we are all on equal grounds, we were just more valiant in the pre existence. we all still have the same ability to become like god and we have our agency. Read Alma 13

[bobg]

I think Foreknowledge should not be mistaken with predestination, biblically I see the latter being taught quite strongly.

Romans 9

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

We see here in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whom HE has mercy not according to who works but who God has prepared beforehand for glory, we see in verse 22 the less pretty side of this that some people are prepared for destruction, however if God is glorious over all He is free to choose whatever or whoever He wants. However this choice is not on the basis of any works or performance of us as with Jacob and Esau they had not been born yet their place had been chosen.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

According to calvanism some have been saved because they are the elect and the rest have been damned, and there is nothing anyone can do about it one way or the other.

Why then was Paul doing so much?

2 Tim 2

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect

[Hughes]

I think Foreknowledge should not be mistaken with predestination, biblically I see the latter being taught quite strongly.

Romans 9

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

We see here in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whom HE has mercy not according to who works but who God has prepared beforehand for glory, we see in verse 22 the less pretty side of this that some people are prepared for destruction, however if God is glorious over all He is free to choose whatever or whoever He wants. However this choice is not on the basis of any works or performance of us as with Jacob and Esau they had not been born yet their place had been chosen.

Predestination becomes "predetermination" unless it's coupled with God's foreknowledge. In essence, it becomes Calvinism misunderstood.

Unless you wish to argue that God displaces our sovereign will, in which case he would have no grounds to judge us.

[bobg]

I appreciate this is an unpopular subject so I dont intend on going too far with this however God has grounds to judge all of humanity as all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) however the verses I quoted in Romans 9 if you read it for what it says are certainly not just saying God knows what will happen.

[seriously honestly]

According to calvanism some have been saved because they are the elect and the rest have been damned, and there is nothing anyone can do about it one way or the other.

Why then was Paul doing so much?

2 Tim 2

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect

[Hughes]

I appreciate this is an unpopular subject so I dont intend on going too far with this however God has grounds to judge all of humanity as all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) however the verses I quoted in Romans 9 if you read it for what it says are certainly not just saying God knows what will happen.

Yes I read them. However, the verses have to be joined with, or understood "in light of" the passages that also talk about God's foreknowledge.

In other words, just because it says, "God hardened the Pharaoh's heart..." doesn't also eliminate Pharaoh's free will and choice to harden his own heart too.

"For those God foreknew he also predestined..."

[bobg]

In that case I guess it depends on whether you will allow scripture to speak for itself. I believe in foreknowledge anyone who believes in God has too really however as I said this goes much further than foreknowledge and biblically God hardened Pharoah's heart, does this mean then that Pharoah had 100% free will, I guess that means no but if you will read what I have quoted in the bible this stuff is in there.

[Hughes]

In that case I guess it depends on whether you will allow scripture to speak for itself. I believe in foreknowledge anyone who believes in God has too really however as I said this goes much further than foreknowledge and biblically God hardened Pharoah's heart, does this mean then that Pharoah had 100% free will, I guess that means no but if you will read what I have quoted in the bible this stuff is in there.

It's a common misunderstanding of election and calvinism specifically. The foreknowledge of God can't take away our free will. The Pharaoh still had 100% free will.

Let's say for example that the Pharaoh didn't have 100% free will, at that point, we'd have to conclude that it was God who was to blame for the actions of the Pharaoh. Thereby relieving the Pharaoh of being judged by God for his actions, since he didn't choose them, God did.

However, if we understand that God knew, beforehand, (foreknew) what the Pharaoh would do, and what was in his heart to do, and God allowed him to do those things, by not stopping him. The Pharaoh used his free will, and God used the Pharaoh actions, which he knew ahead of time he was going to do.

This is an example of God's foreknowledge in action. Those he foreknew he also predestined.

[bobg]

Your still ignoring the text and bringing your own preconceptions to it Hughes, if you want to discuss what the bible has to say on the matter then I will be happy to discuss it further. I don't think the bible is as worried about free will as the Mormon church is.

[Hughes]

Your still ignoring the text and bringing your own preconceptions to it Hughes, if you want to discuss what the bible has to say on the matter then I will be happy to discuss it further. I don't think the bible is as worried about free will as the Mormon church is.

I haven't ignored anything. You're not dealing with the arguments I've made.

Here you say, "We see here in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whom HE has mercy not according to who works but who God has prepared beforehand for glory, we see in verse 22 the less pretty side of this that some people are prepared for destruction, however if God is glorious over all He is free to choose whatever or whoever He wants. However this choice is not on the basis of any works or performance of us as with Jacob and Esau they had not been born yet their place had been chosen."

Answer me this. On what basis was their "place" chosen?

[bobg]

The answer is found in this chapter

v15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

He simply has mercy on whom He has mercy, we see again in this chapter that its not because of works so God is still no respector of persons as He does not favour one person over the other for anything they do, He simply has mercy on whom He has mercy.

It might seem a bit vague but its there, its kind of again like with Moses when Moses asks who should I say sent me and God says, I am sent you!

God is who He is and does what He does.

So then you can ask why does God then find fault with sinners if we have no choice anyway, Romans 9 asks this too.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

And answers like this

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It is simply not our place to ask, God is who He is and does what He does and we as lumps of clay have no place to ask the creator why He does things how He does.

This teaching may seem horrible to some but for me it demonstrates more than any other that God is glorious and in control and free to do whatever He wills. Our purpose in existence is to bring glory to Him this is primarily why He saves us as verse 23 says.

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

[volgadon]

we are all on equal grounds, we were just more valiant in the pre existence. we all still have the same ability to become like god and we have our agency. Read Alma 13

Who is "we"? While I'm not saying that our valiance (or varying degrees thereof) has nothing to do with it, a case could be made for other positions. One could argue that perhaps a good portion of those born in Utah to multi-generational LDS families, who live within easy walking distance of a chapel (which is within walking distance of other chapels), have always had the full array of LDS youth programs at their convenience, who never have to worry about significant corruption, poverty, lawlessnes, and war, are among the less valiant ones. IE, if God put them in any other circumstances they might not cope.

[Zakuska]

Who is "we"? While I'm not saying that our valiance (or varying degrees thereof) has nothing to do with it, a case could be made for other positions. One could argue that perhaps a good portion of those born in Utah to multi-generational LDS families, who live within easy walking distance of a chapel (which is within walking distance of other chapels), have always had the full array of LDS youth programs at their convenience, who never have to worry about significant corruption, poverty, lawlessnes, and war, are among the less valiant ones. IE, if God put them in any other circumstances they might not cope.

Aint that the truth!

Didn't one of the most valiant missionaries that ever walked MesoAmerica walk among his enemies who had Zero youth programs, Zero temples, Zero ward mission leaders, 95% of therm were Athiests anyway.

People who haven't served a mission or lived in a Branch just don't know how much they are blessed.

[volgadon]

Mind you, my comments weren't directed against anyone in particular, just against a certain line of thought.

[TAO]

Agreeing with volgadon here. We were put where we are for a reason, and it's purpose is much more than valiance. It is to teach use the right things.

[Hughes]

The answer is found in this chapter

v15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

He simply has mercy on whom He has mercy, we see again in this chapter that its not because of works so God is still no respector of persons as He does not favour one person over the other for anything they do, He simply has mercy on whom He has mercy.

It might seem a bit vague but its there, its kind of again like with Moses when Moses asks who should I say sent me and God says, I am sent you!

God is who He is and does what He does.

So then you can ask why does God then find fault with sinners if we have no choice anyway, Romans 9 asks this too.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

And answers like this

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It is simply not our place to ask, God is who He is and does what He does and we as lumps of clay have no place to ask the creator why He does things how He does.

This teaching may seem horrible to some but for me it demonstrates more than any other that God is glorious and in control and free to do whatever He wills. Our purpose in existence is to bring glory to Him this is primarily why He saves us as verse 23 says.

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I did not reply to this because we were just talking past each other.

I asked, "Answer me this. On what basis was their "place" chosen? "

And you replied with the above, which contains, "It is simply not our place to ask, God is who He is and does what He does and we as lumps of clay have no place to ask the creator why He does things how He does."

So, I concluded from that, if it's not our place to ask, then I won't ask you anymore.

[bobg]

Thats cool man was just really wondering what you thought, however I hope you understand that my response was the bibles response.