Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 We read about the ressurection thusly in Matthew, Mark, and Luke...Matthew 2231 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,32 I am the aGod of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.Luke agrees with Matthew...Luke 2036 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.39
Vance Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Doesn't the writings of Paul supersede all others? Specifically Romans?Not all of Romans, of course, but those parts that don't talk about actions/obedience?
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Doesn't the writings of Paul supersede all others? Specifically Romans?Not all of Romans, of course, but those parts that don't talk about actions/obedience?Apparently... Paul was some sort of loose cannon... he Contradicted the other Apostles and the Lord at almost every turn!Pauls Contradictions of JesusJesus Says Not To Eat Meat Sacrificed to Idols, But Paul Says It Is OkJesus Says Don't Exclude Heretics Or Judge Them; Paul Says Exclude ThemJesus Says The Law Continues, But Paul Says NoPaul Says The Pharisees Followed The Law Rigorously, But Jesus Says They Were Lax About The LawJesus Says Only God Is Your Spiritual Father, and Call No Man on Earth Your Father, But Paul Says He Is The Corinthians' Only Spiritual FatherJesus Says Salvation Is By Repentance From Sin and Obedience Besides Faith; Paul Says This is HeresyJesus Tells Apostles To Teach His Commands Given Prior to His Ascension While In The Flesh, But Paul Says Not To Do SoPaul Says Elders Are Entitled To Pay for 'Preaching & Teaching,' But Jesus Says NoJesus Says To Shun Sinning Christians; Paul Says To Kill ThemJesus Teaches There Are Only 12 Apostles Into Eternity, But Paul Adds Himself To The List As a ThirteenthPaul Exhorts Celibacy, But Jesus Clearly Says It is A Choice Not Within Everyone's PowerJesus Says There Is One Pastor and Teacher (Himself), But Paul Says There Are Many Pastors and TeachersPaul Says God Is The God of the Dead, But Jesus Says God Is Not The God of the DeadPaul Says God Does Not Live in Temples Made of Human Hands, But Jesus Says He DoesNations Of The World Under Satan, But Paul Says Their Rulers Are Agents of GodJesus Has Low Regard for Governments But Paul Says God's AgentWho Should We Follow/Imitate?Feed The Poor But Paul Puts Up BarriersFaith Alone Or Obedience to Christ?Paul's Contradictions of Yahweh in Original Testament as well as Jesus
Hick Preacher Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 We read about the ressurection thusly in Matthew, Mark, and Luke...Matthew 2231 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,32 I am the aGod of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.Luke agrees with Matthew...Luke 1436 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.39
Hick Preacher Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Apparently... Paul was some sort of loose cannon... he Contradicted the other Apostles and the Lord at almost every turn!Pauls Contradictions of JesusJesus Says Not To Eat Meat Sacrificed to Idols, But Paul Says It Is OkJesus Says Don't Exclude Heretics Or Judge Them; Paul Says Exclude ThemJesus Says The Law Continues, But Paul Says NoPaul Says The Pharisees Followed The Law Rigorously, But Jesus Says They Were Lax About The LawJesus Says Only God Is Your Spiritual Father, and Call No Man on Earth Your Father, But Paul Says He Is The Corinthians' Only Spiritual FatherJesus Says Salvation Is By Repentance From Sin and Obedience Besides Faith; Paul Says This is HeresyJesus Tells Apostles To Teach His Commands Given Prior to His Ascension While In The Flesh, But Paul Says Not To Do SoPaul Says Elders Are Entitled To Pay for 'Preaching & Teaching,' But Jesus Says NoJesus Says To Shun Sinning Christians; Paul Says To Kill ThemJesus Teaches There Are Only 12 Apostles Into Eternity, But Paul Adds Himself To The List As a ThirteenthPaul Exhorts Celibacy, But Jesus Clearly Says It is A Choice Not Within Everyone's PowerJesus Says There Is One Pastor and Teacher (Himself), But Paul Says There Are Many Pastors and TeachersPaul Says God Is The God of the Dead, But Jesus Says God Is Not The God of the DeadPaul Says God Does Not Live in Temples Made of Human Hands, But Jesus Says He DoesNations Of The World Under Satan, But Paul Says Their Rulers Are Agents of GodJesus Has Low Regard for Governments But Paul Says God's AgentWho Should We Follow/Imitate?Feed The Poor But Paul Puts Up BarriersFaith Alone Or Obedience to Christ?Paul's Contradictions of Yahweh in Original Testament as well as JesusMany who see these variations sometimes claim that Paul was the inventor of Christianity.But actually Paul reexplained Christianity. Even Paul claims he did so--Romans 6:19-22 (New International Version,
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Many who see these variations sometimes claim that Paul was the inventor of Christianity.But actually Paul reexplained Christianity. Even Paul claims he did so--Romans 6:19-22 (New International Version,
Hick Preacher Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 What was wrong with Jesus' and his Apostles' explanation the first time around? Were Pauls words more God breathed than theirs?Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.Paul's ministry goes back to the killing of Stephen. Paul (as Saul) as a Jew was there witnessing and encouraging the stoning of Stephen while he explained the Salvation-History of the Jews to Jews. Even Paul (Saul) did not understand at the time what Stephen was talking about, and Paul was an educated Jew. Luke's book of Acts included this account of Stephen and Paul showing that the Jews and the Jewish ways tended to reject the Gospel message. Paul became an expert in explaining the Gospel message in a way that the gentiles could understand, and Jews also. The Pauline style of understanding the Gospel is also seen in the NT book of Hebrews and its way of explaining Christ's role in the scheme of things. Paul's style has similar features and is consistent to Stephen's address in Acts 7 too. Luke and Acts are very Pauline in nature and style- and seem to promote Paul as an Apostle.Pauline Christianity seems to start in the eclectic Gospel of Luke, leading to Acts of the Apostles introduction of Paul. Then of course continued in Paul's letters. Some think the Book of Hebrews was written by Paul, but the writing style is different, and it has no introduction like the other letters of Paul. But Hebrews contains doctrinal explanations that are 'Pauline' in nature.
frankenstein Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 How is this "univocal"?Now watch the Evangelicals try and redifine the way Paul used the word dead. is your post one honestly seeking dialogue of just fan the flames? while we are at it, it is not as though LDS are not accused - for similar reason - of the same things. (for example is President Hinckley saying twice on National US television that LDS do not consume caffiene a binding statement on the Membership of the Church or was he just speaking as a man)However, God is the God all, God is even the God over demons, who be considered spiritually dead. frankly, I find the intent of your post highly suspect.
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.Paul's ministry goes back to the killing of Stephen. Paul (as Saul) as a Jew was there witnessing and encouraging the stoning of Stephen while he explained the Salvation-History of the Jews to Jews. Even Paul (Saul) did not understand at the time what Stephen was talking about, and Paul was an educated Jew. Luke's book of Acts included this account of Stephen and Paul showing that the Jews and the Jewish ways tended to reject the Gospel message. Paul became an expert in explaining the Gospel message in a way that the gentiles could understand, and Jews also. The Pauline style of understanding the Gospel is also seen in the NT book of Hebrews and its way of explaining Christ's role in the scheme of things. Paul's style has similar features and is consistent to Stephen's address in Acts 7 too. Luke and Acts are very Pauline in nature and style- and seem to promote Paul as an Apostle.Pauline Christianity seems to start in the eclectic Gospel of Luke, leading to Acts of the Apostles introduction of Paul. Then of course continued in Paul's letters. Some think the Book of Hebrews was written by Paul, but the writing style is different, and it has no introduction like the other letters of Paul. But Hebrews contains doctrinal explanations that are 'Pauline' in nature.When I began reading Luke last week for Gospel doctrine class I noticed this...Luke 11 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.1) Luke is an Epistle as well.2) And is not a first hand account, but a rendition or second-layer-telephone account.
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 is your post one honestly seeking dialogue of just fan the flames? while we are at it, it is not as though LDS are not accused - for similar reason - of the same things. (for example is President Hinckley saying twice on National US television that LDS do not consume caffiene a binding statement on the Membership of the Church or was he just speaking as a man)However, God is the God all, God is even the God over demons, who be considered spiritually dead. frankly, I find the intent of your post highly suspect.I agree completely with this. However that does not diminish the fact that Jesus as depicted by Matthew, Mark, and Luke got it wrong. Nor the fact that "univocallity" is a myth. That Luke disagrees with Paul but agrees with Matthew and Mark accentuates this fact even more.I mean after reading verses like this....Mark 9:34But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.Gal 29 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.How can anyone claim that? Also, Did you notice that Paul tried to save face before his Galatian buddies and did not mention what the real verdict was of the Jerusalem Council by James?Acts 21:25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.But instead accused Peter of a double standard for eating with the Gentiles?!
Hick Preacher Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 When I began reading Luke last week for Gospel doctrine class I noticed this...Luke 11 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.1) Luke is an Epistle as well.2) And is not a first hand account, but a rendition or second-layer-telephone account.Yeap, its not like the Gospel of Mark, or Matthew or esp John. Luke and Acts are really one large book. One might say that the center of the Book is the stoning of Stephen related to giving of the Salvation-History in Acts 6:6 to 8:1 . This Salvation-History is a reflection of the content of the current New Testament canon. So Luke's writings had a huge influence on the development of Christianity and unity of early Christianity. And as I have mentioned before, Luke's book of Acts and the Gospel of Luke is Pauline consistent, Acts itself introduces Paul as a missionary.
seriously honestly Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 We read about the ressurection thusly in Matthew, Mark, and Luke...Matthew 2231 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,32 I am the aGod of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.Luke agrees with Matthew...Luke 1436 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.39
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 It's Luke 20 those verse come from btw, not 14. Fixed it.And I think the answer to your question in in that section as well. In verse 38 it says "for all are alive unto him", meaning that even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (as far as life and death goes) are very much dead, they are still "alive unto [God]". So He is still their Lord even though they are dead as far as we're concerend (romans 14) because they are alive to Him (Luke 20)."for all are alive unto him", So is that "ALL" really an ALL or does it only include Abraham Isaac and Jacob? Luke seems to be saying ALL mankind are alive unto God. Mormons would agree that all mankind do receive Immortality, by Gods grace.
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 I'm going to post this over here too...Your explanation seems to differ with the Apostle Paul's exhortation to the saints:I Cor 11
Hick Preacher Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 I'm going to post this over here too...Which just shows another place where Paul contradicted Jesus.Matt 69 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.11 Give us this day our daily bread.12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.PS. I don't think Paul is advocating Praying to Jesus in 1 Corithians 1.The Lord's Prayer follows the pattern of the Kiddush, which glorified the name of YHWH as God. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiddush (YHWH=LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) So Jesus using the Kiddush for the Lord's prayer indicates that His Father was YHWH. The name of the Father being 'hallowed' in "hallowed be thy name" is the name of YHWH.Through out the New and Old Testament Jehovah was called upon in Prayer and for Salvation.Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.(LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) (Calling on Jesus Christ) Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.(Thomas recognizes Jesus as God and Lord) Jud 15:18 And he was sore athirst, and called on the LORD, and said, Thou hast given this great deliverance into the hand of thy servant: and now shall I die for thirst, and fall into the hand of the uncircumcised? (LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) 2Sa 22:4 I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. (LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) This calling upon YHWH follows the pattern seen in I Cor-- so it appears that Paul was not contradicting Jesus at all when he wrote:Quote1 Cor: 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:And likewise Stephen calls upon Jesus (YHWH) at his moment of death.And so if follows that Paul said that he worshiped YHWH in saying that he worshiped the "God of my Fathers"--Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 The Lord's Prayer follows the pattern of the Kiddush, which glorified the name of YHWH as God. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiddush (YHWH=LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) So Jesus using the Kiddush for the Lord's prayer indicates that His Father was YHWH. The name of the Father being 'hallowed' in "hallowed be thy name" is the name of YHWH.Through out the New and Old Testament Jehovah was called upon in Prayer and for Salvation.Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.(LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) (Calling on Jesus Christ) Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.(Thomas recognizes Jesus as God and Lord) Jud 15:18 And he was sore athirst, and called on the LORD, and said, Thou hast given this great deliverance into the hand of thy servant: and now shall I die for thirst, and fall into the hand of the uncircumcised? (LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) 2Sa 22:4 I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. (LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) This calling upon YHWH follows the pattern seen in I Cor-- so it appears that Paul was not contradicting Jesus at all when he wrote:QuoteAnd likewise Stephen calls upon Jesus (YHWH) at his moment of death.And so if follows that Paul said that he worshiped YHWH in saying that he worshiped the "God of my Fathers"--Acts 24:But this assumes that the YHWH that is being prayed to is Jesus and not his father who is also named YHWH.Gen 1924Then the LORD[Jesus] rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD[God the Father] out of heaven; Paul knew who the God of his fathers was and it wasn't Jesus.1 Cor 86 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.2 Corinthians 1:3Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Galatians 1:1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Hick Preacher Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 But this assumes that the YHWH that is being prayed to is Jesus and not his father who is also named YHWH.Gen 1924Then the LORD[Jesus] rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD[God the Father] out of heaven; Paul knew who the God of his fathers was and it wasn't Jesus.1 Cor 86 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.2 Corinthians 1:3Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Galatians 1:1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Understanding the Father, and his Mediator as one YHWH in the Old Testament carried over in the New Testament as Jesus the Son and Mediator and the Father both being the same One YHWH.We can follow this teaching in the New and Old Testaments as one larger consistent idea. This is the revelation that YHWH is a transcendent being, who is able to appear at one time as several distinct persons. This accounts for the presence of more than one YHWH in Biblical accounts.Genesis 19:24 Two YHWHs One manifest in Heaven, one manifest in the Earthly Realms.Isaiah 13: 17,19 I stur up (YHWH [1] the mediator) over turned by God(YHWH [2] the Heavenly God or Father)Ancient Rabbis before the 2 century CE interpreted such passages using Exodus 15:3 as a guideYHWH is a man of war (The Angel on Earth with Sword Drawn)YHWH is His name. (The Heavenly God is YHWH)These Rabbis would teach that there was absolutely One YHWH, but that He may manifest to men in two different modes. In the Celestial Sphere a YHWH, and in the Earthly Sphere a YHWH as the Angel of the Lord. One transcendent YHWH who is manifest in several spheres of existence at one time as distinct personages to an observer.This is explained in Alan Segal's Book-Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports About Christianity and Gnosticism YHWH could appear as the man of war
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 This is evident from a careful examination of Judges Ch. 6 Where YHWH is with Gideon on Earth as the Angel of the Lord, and yet YHWH from above at the same time speaks to Gideon. This is an example of YHWH as a Transcendent being who can manifest as two distinct persons at the same time.Judges 6: 11 And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.4 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?15 And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father
Hick Preacher Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Ergo... Joseph Smith.JSH 117 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Many who see these variations sometimes claim that Paul was the inventor of Christianity.But actually Paul reexplained Christianity. Even Paul claims he did so--Romans 6:19-22 (New International Version,
Nathair/|\ Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 I want to re-examine this one.2 Peter 315 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.Apparently, he didn't do such a good Job.Perhaps not, but his Baalam was spot on.
Zakuska Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Perhaps not, but his Baalam was spot on.LOLCapital J makes the word 'Job' the betting man.
Hick Preacher Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Perhaps not, but his Baalam was spot on.YOU mean Balaam not bAAlam? That is the false prophet mentioned by Peter in the NT?Or do you mean the guy in the OT who had a talking donkey?
seriously honestly Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 "for all are alive unto him", So is that "ALL" really an ALL or does it only include Abraham Isaac and Jacob? Luke seems to be saying ALL mankind are alive unto God. Ha! We're all screwed if it's limited to only those three. I just used them as an example because the text did. Were told that they will be a large group of people to whom Christ will say "I never knew you: depart from me" and in Luke 13 Christ compares that day to a master who locks the door and those who are out side will not be permitted in, so taking that into consideration the "all" would be referring to all who belong to Christ. They would be alive unto him even after our mortal death.
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