Lessons from Stephen

[Zakuska]

Read this today in PSS... and this verse stuck out at me.

Acts 7

51

[Hick Preacher]

Stephen's address to the Jews is a milestone summary teaching. Stephen recounts the Salvation-History of Israel for the listening Jews. This address by Stephen provides an overall theme and context of how Israel's development as a nation from times of old, up until Jesus' birth was to set the stage for the coming Messiah. Nevertheless, the Jews could not see this theme being blinded and resisting what seemed obvious to the followers of Christ. Stephen closes his address by declaring that Jesus has entered God's very presence (Stephen's vision of Jesus standing on the Right Hand of God). And notice how Stephen, at death's door prays to Jesus to receive his spirit at death.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Whaaat? You can't pray to Jesus !

[Hick Preacher]

Whaaat? You can't pray to Jesus !

The Book of Mormon is consistent with Acts, and Paul's writings on this issue. Praying to Jesus is also explicit in I Corinthians-- and in 3 Nephi.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The Book of Mormon is consistent with Acts, and Paul's writings on this issue. Praying to Jesus is also explicit in I Corinthians-- and in 3 Nephi.

You and I know that. Try convincing our friends here of that fact.

[Zakuska]

And notice how Stephen, at death's door prays to Jesus to receive his spirit at death.

His final words as he fell to the ground outside the jail were, "O Lord, my God!" (HC 6:618).

[T-Shirt]

Anyone else have some thoughts or insights on Stephens sermon they would like to share that we can discuss?

What I find interesting is that Stephen, clearly, indicated that the Holy Ghost was available to the "fathers", yet, if I am not mistaken, mainstream evangelicals believe that the Gift of the Holy Ghost was not available until Pentecost.

And, as you have pointed out, it appears, according to Stephen, the witness of the Holy Ghost is the means by which one gains a testimony of Christ. This being the case, why are Latter-day Saints so criticized for teaching people to seek a witness of the Spirit?

Best,

T-Shirt

[Zakuska]

What I find interesting is that Stephen, clearly, indicated that the Holy Ghost was available to the "fathers", yet, if I am not mistaken, mainstream evangelicals believe that the Gift of the Holy Ghost was not available until Pentecost.

And, as you have pointed out, it appears, according to Stephen, the witness of the Holy Ghost is the means by which one gains a testimony of Christ. This being the case, why are Latter-day Saints so criticized for teaching people to seek a witness of the Spirit?

Best,

T-Shirt

Because they are criticized by people who resist the Holy Ghost in both their Heart and their ears. Just like the people who stoned Stephen.

[Lightbearer]

You and I know that. Try convincing our friends here of that fact.

Of course one can pray to Jesus if He is in our presence as with the Nephites in 3 Nephi, and also because Stephen saw Him and the Father in open vision just prior to being killed by the Jews who denounced him as a blasphemer. Note that Jesus explains this exception to the rule of praying unto the Father in His name here:

(3 Nephi 19:22) "Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them."

[Hick Preacher]

Of course one can pray to Jesus if He is in our presence as with the Nephites in 3 Nephi, and also because Stephen saw Him and the Father in open vision just prior to being killed by the Jews who denounced him as a blasphemer. Note that Jesus explains this exception to the rule of praying unto the Father in His name here:

Your explanation seems to differ with the Apostle Paul's exhortation to the saints:

I Cor

1

[Zakuska]

Your explanation seems to differ with the Apostle Paul's exhortation to the saints:

I Cor

Which just shows another place where Paul contradicted Jesus.

Matt 6

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

PS. I don't think Paul was saying to pray to Jesus in the 1 Corinthians 1.

PSS. I moved the post to the Other Thread where it has more relevance. Don't answer here please.

[Hick Preacher]

Which just shows another place where Paul contradicted Jesus.

Matt 6

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

PS. I don't think Paul was saying to pray to Jesus in the 1 Corinthians 1.

PSS. I moved the post to the other thread where it has more relevance. Don't answer here please.

The Lord's Prayer follows the pattern of the Kiddush, which glorified the name of YHWH as God. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiddush (YHWH=LORD= Jehovah= Jesus)

Through out the New and Old Testament Jehovah was called upon in Prayer and for Salvation.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(LORD= Jehovah= Jesus)

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (LORD= Jehovah= Jesus) (Calling on Jesus Christ)

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.(Thomas recognizes Jesus as God and Lord)

Jud 15:18 And he was sore athirst, and called on the LORD, and said, Thou hast given this great deliverance into the hand of thy servant: and now shall I die for thirst, and fall into the hand of the uncircumcised? (LORD= Jehovah= Jesus)

2Sa 22:4 I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. (LORD= Jehovah= Jesus)

This calling upon YHWH follows the pattern seen in I Cor-- so it appears that Paul was not contradicting Jesus at all when he wrote:

1 Cor: 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

And likewise Stephen calls upon Jesus (YHWH) at his moment of death.

And so if follows that Paul said that he worshiped YHWH in saying that he worshiped the "God of my Fathers"--

Acts 24:

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Your explanation seems to differ with the Apostle Paul's exhortation to the saints:

I Cor

Wait a sencond. I disagree with the itnerpretaion here. I think calling on the name and Jesus and praying to him are 2 different things.

As you know LDS end prayers in the Name of Jesus Christ.

I will state that if your pray to Jesus I believe that your prayer is valid and will be heard just as if you have prayed to the Father.

The reason the LDS pray to the Father is because Jesus commanded us to do so when he gave us the mode for prayer.

[Zakuska]

Lets continue that conversation on the other thread please.

[WalkerW]

Prayers directed or appealing to Jesus along with the authoritative and liturgical use of His name are some of the religious innovations that in my view give Christianity's rise more validity. Larry Hurtado concludes that the innovation spawned from the sincere belief of disciples that they had experienced an appearance of the risen and exalted Jesus Christ. See Hurtado, One God, One Lord: Early Christian Devotion and Ancient Jewish Monotheism, 2nd ed. (T&T Clark, 1998): Ch. 5 "The Early Christian Mutation."

Rigid attempts to Mormonize scriptures often do more harm than good. There is plenty of "faith-promoting" finds when one engages the historical and cultural context without the ill-conceived attempts to read ancient texts through 21st century Mormon glasses.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Of course one can pray to Jesus if He is in our presence as with the Nephites in 3 Nephi, and also because Stephen saw Him and the Father in open vision just prior to being killed by the Jews who denounced him as a blasphemer. Note that Jesus explains this exception to the rule of praying unto the Father in His name here:

Alma the Younger and King Lamoni's wife were not in the presence of Jesus when they cried out to Him.

[Lightbearer]

Alma the Younger and King Lamoni's wife were not in the presence of Jesus when they cried out to Him.

Not to belabor the point, but how do you know? In fact according to the text they had just had a vision:

(Alma 19:11-13) "And it came to pass that she watched over the bed of her husband, from that time even until that time on the morrow which Ammon had appointed that he should rise. And it came to pass that he arose, according to the words of Ammon; and as he arose, he stretched forth his hand unto the woman, and said: Blessed be the name of God, and blessed art thou. For as sure as thou livest, behold, I have seen my Redeemer; and he shall come forth, and be born of a woman, and he shall redeem all mankind who believe on his name. Now, when he had said these words, his heart was swollen within him, and he sunk again with joy; and the queen also sunk down, being overpowered by the Spirit."

It appears the King was in the presence of the Lord, and we have reason to believe the Queen had also:

(Alma 19:29-34) "And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground; and as soon as she touched her hand she arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people! And when she had said this, she clasped her hands, being filled with joy, speaking many words which were not understood; and when she had done this, she took the king, Lamoni, by the hand, and behold he arose and stood upon his feet. And he, immediately, seeing the contention among his people, went forth and began to rebuke them, and to teach them the words which he had heard from the mouth of Ammon; and as many as heard his words believed, and were converted unto the Lord. But there were many among them who would not hear his words; therefore they went their way. And it came to pass that when Ammon arose he also administered unto them, and also did all the servants of Lamoni; and they did all declare unto the people the selfsame thing

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Every time I bring up this point a LDS person makes the implication that I am saying we should pray to Jesus all the time.

To be clear... I AGREE that praying to the Father in the name of Jesus is the "general rule" for prayer. But I argue, that if so inspired, it is perfectly acceptable to pray and cry out directly to Jesus. For some reason many LDS don't even want to make that small allowance, dogmatically insisting that we must use "the pattern" in ALL instances.

[TAO]

I'm agreeing with BoML here, we should try to pray to the father in the name of Christ, but to cry out directly to Christ is also ok. In my feeling, when you call upon the Father, you call upon the Savior as well, and vise versa; when you call upon the Savior, you call upon the Father as well. They work as team players =D.

Just remember though; there is no such thing as solely praying to one or the other - when you speak to one, you are speaking to the other as well. They are of one heart, and of one mind, and dwell in righteousness =).