God's Foreknowledge

[kicks]

It is my belief that God does not have perfect knowledge of the future contingent acts of free beings. I do believe, however, that He has perfect knowledge of the past and of the present. I would posit that God cannot know the future with certainty because the future does not exist yet. I do believe that He can predict our future choices with great accuracy because of His perfect knowledge of our past and present thoughts and actions and because He has known each of us for eons of time.

Example: Let's assume that God does have foreknowledge of our future contingent decisions. With this assumption, let's say that God foresees that on the day that John is born, that he will rob a convenience store on his 20th birthday. If we also believe that God is perfect and that He cannot hold a false belief, then we can be assured that what He foresees will come to pass. Therefore, if we believe that God has foreknowledge of John's actions and we also believe that God is perfect, then we have to come to the conclusion that John will rob the store. Can John choose not to rob the store if God had already foreseen that he will? If John chooses to refrain from robbing the store, wouldn't that, in a sense, be changing God's belief as well as changing the past? And if John had to rob the store to be in accordance with divine foreknowledge, how could John be accountable for acting in the only way possible?

I would submit that if God had absolute foreknowledge it would be incompatible with human free will. I believe that God does not know what free beings will do until their moment of decision. For "we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;" Abraham 3:25. The purpose of our mortal existence is to choose for ourselves how we will live our lives.

Opinions?

[Chris]

Apparently, God knows when Christ is "coming back" again. So there's one thing he apparently knows.

[kicks]

Apparently, God knows when Christ is "coming back" again. So there's one thing he apparently knows.

I can also predict with amazing accuracy that I will go to work on Wednesday May 11, 2011. Anyone can predict the future when it is their own actions they are predicting. At that chosen day in the future, that only God knows, He will command his Son to return.

[Maidservant]

I agree with you that much of God's prophecy is simply him telling us his plans. There's no mystery there.

If you are going off of what mortals are capable of, however, I would submit to you that the past also does not exist, nor can it be known with any accuracy on the same order as the uncertainty of the future. The "past" that exists in our memories is 1) not the past that actually happened (our perception only); and 2) not the past at all, but a recording of it.

I actually think that signals can arrive to us from the future and can be received by the proper instrument -- for every signal to be comprehended there is an instrument . . . we just haven't invented it yet (and/or it is the human body).

[RickChown]

It is my belief that God does not have perfect knowledge of the future contingent acts of free beings. I do believe, however, that He has perfect knowledge of the past and of the present. I would posit that God cannot know the future with certainty because the future does not exist yet. I do believe that He can predict our future choices with great accuracy because of His perfect knowledge of our past and present thoughts and actions and because He has known each of us for eons of time.

Example: Let's assume that God does have foreknowledge of our future contingent decisions. With this assumption, let's say that God foresees that on the day that John is born, that he will rob a convenience store on his 20th birthday. If we also believe that God is perfect and that He cannot hold a false belief, then we can be assured that what He foresees will come to pass. Therefore, if we believe that God has foreknowledge of John's actions and we also believe that God is perfect, then we have to come to the conclusion that John will rob the store. Can John choose not to rob the store if God had already foreseen that he will? If John chooses to refrain from robbing the store, wouldn't that, in a sense, be changing God's belief as well as changing the past? And if John had to rob the store to be in accordance with divine foreknowledge, how could John be accountable for acting in the only way possible?

If God sees John rob the store John will rob the store. John won't change his mind, or God would have seen him change his mind . and would NOT have seen John rob the store.

Just because God knows what will happen, doesn't mean God is making it happen.

God lets it happen. This is called agency

I would submit that if God had absolute foreknowledge it would be incompatible with human free will. I believe that God does not know what free beings will do until their moment of decision. For "we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;" Abraham 3:25. The purpose of our mortal existence is to choose for ourselves how we will live our lives.

Opinions?

How do you think God prophesies and gets everything right?

Foreknowledge

God knows the end from the beginning

Isa 46:10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

[Rob Osborn]

God does not perfectly know the future. He does not know exactly what choices we will make. He may know what kind of predisposition we have and how we might possibly choose but he does not positively know every future event. if he did then God is evil. This always comes back to Lucifer somehow. For instance- If God knew everything in the future then he would perfectly know that He would raise a child and raise him with power and then have him fall to fill his destiny. It would be saying that God raised Lucifer for the purpose of him to fall. This makes God evil. No, that is not how it went. He raised Lucifer and put him into power. It wasn't until after that that Lucifer fell and became Satan.

The other aspect to this would be that if God knew the future perfectly he himself would have no agency- he would only be able to say and do that which the future already had laid out for him to perfectly do and say. It would mean that God himself would have no choice on any matter- he would only be exactly bound to do and say exactly what the future already told him to do- and no, he could not write the future for himself either because that would mean that he would have the power to change the future which supposedly is already all lain out.

Logic alone tells us that God does not know the future exactly. When prophesies must be fulfilled he moves his hand and makes the necessary actions and decisions to bring that prophecy to pass. He does this through dreams, visions, direct intervention, etc. He doesn't just sit back and watch it all unfold- he has to physically do things so that prophecy does come to pass according to the prophets.

[staccato]

God does not perfectly know the future. He does not know exactly what choices we will make. He may know what kind of predisposition we have and how we might possibly choose but he does not positively know every future event. if he did then God is evil. This always comes back to Lucifer somehow. For instance- If God knew everything in the future then he would perfectly know that He would raise a child and raise him with power and then have him fall to fill his destiny. It would be saying that God raised Lucifer for the purpose of him to fall. This makes God evil. No, that is not how it went. He raised Lucifer and put him into power. It wasn't until after that that Lucifer fell and became Satan.

The other aspect to this would be that if God knew the future perfectly he himself would have no agency- he would only be able to say and do that which the future already had laid out for him to perfectly do and say. It would mean that God himself would have no choice on any matter- he would only be exactly bound to do and say exactly what the future already told him to do- and no, he could not write the future for himself either because that would mean that he would have the power to change the future which supposedly is already all lain out.

Logic alone tells us that God does not know the future exactly. When prophesies must be fulfilled he moves his hand and makes the necessary actions and decisions to bring that prophecy to pass. He does this through dreams, visions, direct intervention, etc. He doesn't just sit back and watch it all unfold- he has to physically do things so that prophecy does come to pass according to the prophets.

Then God is not omniscient.

[RickChown]

God does not perfectly know the future. He does not know exactly what choices we will make. He may know what kind of predisposition we have and how we might possibly choose but he does not positively know every future event. if he did then God is evil. This always comes back to Lucifer somehow. For instance- If God knew everything in the future then he would perfectly know that He would raise a child and raise him with power and then have him fall to fill his destiny. It would be saying that God raised Lucifer for the purpose of him to fall. This makes God evil. No, that is not how it went. He raised Lucifer and put him into power. It wasn't until after that that Lucifer fell and became Satan.

The other aspect to this would be that if God knew the future perfectly he himself would have no agency- he would only be able to say and do that which the future already had laid out for him to perfectly do and say. It would mean that God himself would have no choice on any matter- he would only be exactly bound to do and say exactly what the future already told him to do- and no, he could not write the future for himself either because that would mean that he would have the power to change the future which supposedly is already all lain out.

Logic alone tells us that God does not know the future exactly. When prophesies must be fulfilled he moves his hand and makes the necessary actions and decisions to bring that prophecy to pass. He does this through dreams, visions, direct intervention, etc. He doesn't just sit back and watch it all unfold- he has to physically do things so that prophecy does come to pass according to the prophets.

Logic? Are you going to use Human logic to direct God and put him in your box?

If there is anything to be known God already knows it. To deny this is to deny God.

[Rob Osborn]

Logic? Are you going to use Human logic to direct God and put him in your box?

If there is anything to be known God already knows it. To deny this is to deny God.

"Human logic"? I am not putting God in any box I am just stating the obvious. If God already knew everything there was to know then it would be true that he is just a mere robot- he could make no choice for himself. Think about it.

God does not obviously know the entire future- it can't possibly be known in the present.

[RickChown]

"Human logic"? I am not putting God in any box I am just stating the obvious. If God already knew everything there was to know then it would be true that he is just a mere robot- he could make no choice for himself. Think about it.

God does not obviously know the entire future- it can't possibly be known in the present.

God Himself claims to know the end from the beginning

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

I choose His Word every time there is a choice

[Rob Osborn]

God Himself claims to know the end from the beginning

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

I choose His Word every time there is a choice

Personally i believe this to mean that he has a "plan" and that he will carry it out- hecreates an earth, sends us here, then after 6000 years he sends Christ to save it and then after that he judges the world- thus he knows how it all will end because he planned it that way. This is far different than him saying he knows every exact detail of what we will do and become.

[kicks]

I agree with you that much of God's prophecy is simply him telling us his plans. There's no mystery there.

If you are going off of what mortals are capable of, however, I would submit to you that the past also does not exist, nor can it be known with any accuracy on the same order as the uncertainty of the future. The "past" that exists in our memories is 1) not the past that actually happened (our perception only); and 2) not the past at all, but a recording of it.

I actually think that signals can arrive to us from the future and can be received by the proper instrument -- for every signal to be comprehended there is an instrument . . . we just haven't invented it yet (and/or it is the human body).

I would agree with you that the past does not exist for humans. However, I believe it is possible for God to have perfect knowledge of the past because He experienced it and has a perfect recollection and memory thereof.

[kicks]

If God sees John rob the store John will rob the store. John won't change his mind, or God would have seen him change his mind . and would NOT have seen John rob the store.

Just because God knows what will happen, doesn't mean God is making it happen.

God lets it happen. This is called agency

Whether John chooses to rob the store or changes his mind is a moot point. If you believe that God has pefect knowledge of the future, He would still foresee the choice John would ultimately make in that particular moment. Either way, God would have seen it happen before it happens and therefore John would still act in accordance with what the outcome God saw and it couldn't be otherwise, it has nothing to do with the fact that God makes John rob the store. Divine foreknowledge would be characterized in my opinion as a type of predestination, not necessarily force.

How do you think God prophesies and gets everything right?

Foreknowledge

God knows the end from the beginning

Isa 46:10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

I believe that prophecies are God pronouncing what He will do or command others to do (or even the earth) in the future. And I wouldn't disagree with the fact that God can declare things from the end to the beginning. I dispute the notion that the future is a "thing". How can the future be a thing if it doesn't exist yet?

[RickChown]

Whether John chooses to rob the store or changes his mind is a moot point. If you believe that God has pefect knowledge of the future, He would still foresee the choice John would ultimately make a that particular moment. Either way, God would have seen it happen before it happens and therefore John would still act in accordance with what the outcome God saw and it couldn't be otherwise, it has nothing to do with the fact that God makes John rob the store. Divine foreknowledge would be characterized in my opinion as a type of predestination, not necessarily force.

I believe that prophecies are God pronouncing what He will do or command others to do (or even the earth) to do in the future. And I wouldn't disagree with the fact that God can declare things from the end to the beginning. I dispute the notion that the future is a "thing". How can the future be a thing if it doesn't exist yet?

there is no time space continuum in eternity

[kicks]

God does not perfectly know the future. He does not know exactly what choices we will make. He may know what kind of predisposition we have and how we might possibly choose but he does not positively know every future event. if he did then God is evil. This always comes back to Lucifer somehow. For instance- If God knew everything in the future then he would perfectly know that He would raise a child and raise him with power and then have him fall to fill his destiny. It would be saying that God raised Lucifer for the purpose of him to fall. This makes God evil. No, that is not how it went. He raised Lucifer and put him into power. It wasn't until after that that Lucifer fell and became Satan.

The other aspect to this would be that if God knew the future perfectly he himself would have no agency- he would only be able to say and do that which the future already had laid out for him to perfectly do and say. It would mean that God himself would have no choice on any matter- he would only be exactly bound to do and say exactly what the future already told him to do- and no, he could not write the future for himself either because that would mean that he would have the power to change the future which supposedly is already all lain out.

Logic alone tells us that God does not know the future exactly. When prophesies must be fulfilled he moves his hand and makes the necessary actions and decisions to bring that prophecy to pass. He does this through dreams, visions, direct intervention, etc. He doesn't just sit back and watch it all unfold- he has to physically do things so that prophecy does come to pass according to the prophets.

Excellent post, I totally agree with you!

Divine foreknowledge would burden God with enormous limitation. He would be bound to accept the future as He foresees it. Let's say that a thousand years ago tomorrow God foresaw a massive earthquake in California. In the moment that God first 'finds out' about the earthquake, it would be too late for Him to interject or prevent the earthquake if He so desired because foreseeing the earthquake suggests that it is what will occur in the future.

[kicks]

Then God is not omniscient.

In the traditional sense of the word, I don't believe He is omniscient. I think Gos has maximum power and is omniscient to the extent that said omniscience does not take away or interfere with the free will of His children.

[kicks]

Also, prayer and priesthood blessings would be irrelevant if God had divine foreknowledge. If God foresaw John dying next week, no prayer or priesthood blessing could prevent John's death. Prayer and supplication to God would be meaningless unless our faith and pleading could change an outcome of the future or cause God to intervene in our lives or in the lives of others. Our prayers would fall on deaf ears and God would not be able to truly answer our prayers if what we are asking contradicted a future event or outcome which He had already seen.

[Brade]

Logic? Are you going to use Human logic to direct God and put him in your box?

If there is anything to be known God already knows it. To deny this is to deny God.

Do you believe that God can make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? If not, is it because believing such a thing implies a contradiction? But, then, isn't that just using Human logic to direct God and put him in a box?

[Lightbearer]

I can also predict with amazing accuracy that I will go to work on Wednesday May 11, 2011. Anyone can predict the future when it is their own actions they are predicting. At that chosen day in the future, that only God knows, He will command his Son to return.

So you are placing yourself on an equal footing with God? I do not mean to be to morbid, but as a matter of fact you nor I can predict for certain that on Wednesday May 11, 2011 that you will go to work... I mean you could be dead, sick, in an accident, have an emergency come up that you would have to call in sick or you could get fired before that time! With each of us there is much uncertainty, with God there is no uncertainty to his prophecies of future events. So unless God revealed to you by revelation that you will be going to work on May 11th, you do not, and cannot know. But God can with 100% accuracy. So if you reduce God's foreknowledge to just the hedging of a divine bookie I think you reduce God in my estimation.

[Brade]

So you are placing yourself on an equal footing with God? I do not mean to be to morbid, but as a matter of fact you nor I can predict for certain that on Wednesday May 11, 2011 that you will go to work... I mean you could be dead, sick, in an accident, have an emergency come up that you would have to call in sick or you could get fired before that time! With each of us there is much uncertainty, with God there is no uncertainty to his prophecies of future events. So unless God revealed to you by revelation that you will be going to work on May 11th, you do not, and cannot know. But God can with 100% accuracy. So if you reduce God's foreknowledge to just the hedging of a divine bookie I think you reduce God in my estimation.

Now, let's say that at every moment from kicks' birth to relevant moment of May 11, 2011 God knows that kicks will go to work on May 11, 2011. Keep that in mind and assess the following statement as either true or false:

S: Kicks can fail to go to work on May 11, 2011.

Lightbearer, is S true or is S false?

[MDalby]

The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence, or ever "the morning stars sang together" for joy; the past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal "now;" he knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness and strength, their power and glory, apostasies, their crimes, their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption; He knew the plan of salvation and pointed it out; He was acquainted with the situation of all nations and with their destiny; He ordered all things according to the council of His own will; He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.

(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 4: 597)

[MDalby]

God does not perfectly know the future. He does not know exactly what choices we will make. He may know what kind of predisposition we have and how we might possibly choose but he does not positively know every future event.

Rob, rather than just voicing your opinion, why don't you support your opinion. You are suggesting that God is making educated guesses. This is false. God knows ALL things.

The Lord Himself said that He `knoweth all things, for all things are present' before Him. (D&C 38:2.) We read, too, that `all things are present with me, for I know them all.' (Moses 1:6.)

Therefore, God's omniscience is not solely a function of prolonged and discerning familiarity with us

-but of the stunning reality that the past and present and future are part of an `eternal now' with God! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:597.)

(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, pp. 7,8.)

Our agency is preserved, however, by the fact that as we approach a given moment we do not know what our response will be. Meanwhile, God has foreseen what we will do and has taken our decision into account (in composite with all others), so that His purposes are not frustrated. It is unfortunate that our concerns do not center more upon the correctness of what we do in a given moment-and less upon whether or not God's having foreseen what we would do then somehow compromises our agency. It is equally regrettable that our souls should be troubled at all because we cannot figure out `how' God does it, when it has been made so abundantly clear and on so many occasions that He does do it.

(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p 12.)

The Lord, who was able to say to his disciples, `Cast the net on the right side of the ship' (John 21:6), knew beforehand that there was a multitude of fishes there. If he knew beforehand the movements and whereabouts of fishes in the little Sea of Tiberias, should it offend us that he knows beforehand which mortals will come into the gospel net?

(Neal A. Maxwell, A More Determined Discipleship, Ensign, February 1979, p. 71.)

There have been those who have failed or who have been treasonous to their trust, such as David, Solomon, and Judas. God foresaw the fall of David, but was not the cause of it. It was David who saw Bathsheba from the balcony and sent for her. But neither was God surprised by such a sad development. God foresaw, but did not cause, Martin Harris's loss of certain pages of the translated Book of Mormon; God made plans to cope with failure over 1,500 years before it was to occur! (See preface to D&C 10 and W of M)

(Neal A. Maxwell, A More Determined Discipleship, Ensign, February 1979, p. 71.)

[Zeta-Flux]

kicks,

It appears that you are committing the modal fallacy. It is something that most people do when first approaching this topic.

I think most of the confusion about foreknowledge is that we come from a linear model for time. But God is intricately connected with all of reality, at all times. Another confusion happens because people don't realize that God's knowledge of the future arises from the fact that *our actions* are what give God His knowledge of the future.

As an analogy (which, of course, has its flaws) suppose you had a window which let you see what Joe would do 5 minutes from now. Is your viewing what Joe is going to do forcing or even predestinating Joe to do it? Or is it simply that a future action of Joe had an effect on the past; namely on you, who was watching the action.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob, rather than just voicing your opinion, why don't you support your opinion. You are suggesting that God is making educated guesses. This is false. God knows ALL things.

The Lord Himself said that He `knoweth all things, for all things are present' before Him. (D&C 38:2.) We read, too, that `all things are present with me, for I know them all.' (Moses 1:6.)

Therefore, God's omniscience is not solely a function of prolonged and discerning familiarity with us

-but of the stunning reality that the past and present and future are part of an `eternal now' with God! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:597.)

(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, pp. 7,8.)

Our agency is preserved, however, by the fact that as we approach a given moment we do not know what our response will be. Meanwhile, God has foreseen what we will do and has taken our decision into account (in composite with all others), so that His purposes are not frustrated. It is unfortunate that our concerns do not center more upon the correctness of what we do in a given moment-and less upon whether or not God's having foreseen what we would do then somehow compromises our agency. It is equally regrettable that our souls should be troubled at all because we cannot figure out `how' God does it, when it has been made so abundantly clear and on so many occasions that He does do it.

(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p 12.)

The Lord, who was able to say to his disciples, `Cast the net on the right side of the ship' (John 21:6), knew beforehand that there was a multitude of fishes there. If he knew beforehand the movements and whereabouts of fishes in the little Sea of Tiberias, should it offend us that he knows beforehand which mortals will come into the gospel net?

(Neal A. Maxwell, A More Determined Discipleship, Ensign, February 1979, p. 71.)

There have been those who have failed or who have been treasonous to their trust, such as David, Solomon, and Judas. God foresaw the fall of David, but was not the cause of it. It was David who saw Bathsheba from the balcony and sent for her. But neither was God surprised by such a sad development. God foresaw, but did not cause, Martin Harris's loss of certain pages of the translated Book of Mormon; God made plans to cope with failure over 1,500 years before it was to occur! (See preface to D&C 10 and W of M)

(Neal A. Maxwell, A More Determined Discipleship, Ensign, February 1979, p. 71.)

God knows all things "as far as can be known". There is a big difference here. We must come to know the reality that we have a God who "makes decisions". What you are suggesting is a God who makes no decisions because it is already written out exactly as it must go forever and ever. When we truly analyze the meaning of a God who makes decisions we can come to realize that not everything is written in stone. Have you ever wondered why prophecies from God almost always have at least two different paths based upon our choices we make? God says- do this and be blessed or do this and not be blessed. He doesn't say this just to say it already knowing with a perfect clarity what decisions we will make. If he did then he is a mere puppet with no self preservation, no mastery, on ability to have "all power" because he would actually be controlled by what is already fixed in stone for the entire future.

We cannot neither state that God makes decisions but that he makes them in full knoiwledge what he must always pick- that would be no decision at all.

So, here is the grand question- Does God make decisions? And, if he does, what does he make them decisions based upon? Does this mean then that God doesn't actually know all future events because a myriad of decisions lay before him of the which are entirely dependant upon decisions themselves?

[kicks]

So you are placing yourself on an equal footing with God? I do not mean to be to morbid, but as a matter of fact you nor I can predict for certain that on Wednesday May 11, 2011 that you will go to work... I mean you could be dead, sick, in an accident, have an emergency come up that you would have to call in sick or you could get fired before that time! With each of us there is much uncertainty, with God there is no uncertainty to his prophecies of future events. So unless God revealed to you by revelation that you will be going to work on May 11th, you do not, and cannot know. But God can with 100% accuracy. So if you reduce God's foreknowledge to just the hedging of a divine bookie I think you reduce God in my estimation.

I hope that someday I can be on an equal footing with God. Again, humans can predict the future with amazing accuracy even with our mortal limitations. Now imagine a God that has perfect knowledge of the past and present, He would be able to predict the future much more accurate than any human. All I am saying is that God can predict the future perfectly if He is predicting what He will do or cause others to do at a particular time. That is prophecy in my opinion and divine foreknowledge is not needed for such knowledge.

I offer again the story of Jonah and Ninevah. God prophesied that He would destroy Ninevah. He later recanted what He said. Was God wrong when He uttered their destruction? No, god simply changed His mind about what He would do in the future.