God's Foreknowledge

[kicks]

Rob, rather than just voicing your opinion, why don't you support your opinion. You are suggesting that God is making educated guesses. This is false. God knows ALL things.

The Lord Himself said that He `knoweth all things, for all things are present' before Him. (D&C 38:2.) We read, too, that `all things are present with me, for I know them all.' (Moses 1:6.)

Therefore, God's omniscience is not solely a function of prolonged and discerning familiarity with us

-but of the stunning reality that the past and present and future are part of an `eternal now' with God! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:597.)

(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, pp. 7,8.)

Our agency is preserved, however, by the fact that as we approach a given moment we do not know what our response will be. Meanwhile, God has foreseen what we will do and has taken our decision into account (in composite with all others), so that His purposes are not frustrated. It is unfortunate that our concerns do not center more upon the correctness of what we do in a given moment-and less upon whether or not God's having foreseen what we would do then somehow compromises our agency. It is equally regrettable that our souls should be troubled at all because we cannot figure out `how' God does it, when it has been made so abundantly clear and on so many occasions that He does do it.

(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p 12.)

The Lord, who was able to say to his disciples, `Cast the net on the right side of the ship' (John 21:6), knew beforehand that there was a multitude of fishes there. If he knew beforehand the movements and whereabouts of fishes in the little Sea of Tiberias, should it offend us that he knows beforehand which mortals will come into the gospel net?

(Neal A. Maxwell, A More Determined Discipleship, Ensign, February 1979, p. 71.)

There have been those who have failed or who have been treasonous to their trust, such as David, Solomon, and Judas. God foresaw the fall of David, but was not the cause of it. It was David who saw Bathsheba from the balcony and sent for her. But neither was God surprised by such a sad development. God foresaw, but did not cause, Martin Harris's loss of certain pages of the translated Book of Mormon; God made plans to cope with failure over 1,500 years before it was to occur! (See preface to D&C 10 and W of M)

(Neal A. Maxwell, A More Determined Discipleship, Ensign, February 1979, p. 71.)

How can something that does not exist (the future) be known? The scriptures say that God "knoweth all things" and/or "things that can be known", suggesting some things can't be known. I don't believe that the future is a "thing" that can be known, it just simply hasn't happened yet.

If God could see the future now, that would mean it has already happened and would suggest a type of predestination, not to suggest a problem when it comes to time. I would think that God's existence, if He knew all details of the future, would be extremely mundane and redundant. I like to believe that I can move God or surprise Him in a sense. I don't believe a true relationship of trust and love could exist in such a relationship when one party knows what the other will do. Think about it, could you trust and love your spouse the way you do know if you knew what she would do, including her shortcomings in the future? That would change everything. I don't prefer a God who is bound by the future.

[kicks]

kicks,

It appears that you are committing the modal fallacy. It is something that most people do when first approaching this topic.

I think most of the confusion about foreknowledge is that we come from a linear model for time. But God is intricately connected with all of reality, at all times. Another confusion happens because people don't realize that God's knowledge of the future arises from the fact that *our actions* are what give God His knowledge of the future.

As an analogy (which, of course, has its flaws) suppose you had a window which let you see what Joe would do 5 minutes from now. Is your viewing what Joe is going to do forcing or even predestinating Joe to do it? Or is it simply that a future action of Joe had an effect on the past; namely on you, who was watching the action.

I reject the middle knowledge that you are describing. The problem with your view and your analogy is that the future actions of humans simply don't exist in the present. Answer me this, after looking through the window and seeing Joe, let's say, eating a sandwich in five minutes, could Joe choose not to eat a sandwich in five minutes?

[mapman]

If God sees today that I will rob a bank tomorrow, then could I choose to not rob a bank tomorrow? No, there is only one choice because of God's foreknowledge. It is true that I would still be making the decision, but the foreknowledge would exclude me from being able to chose to do anything else and thus make it so that I am not morally responsible for my choices, which defeats the puropose of God's whole plan.

2 Nephi 2:27:

Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

Helaman 14:30:

And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free.

I think that perfect foreknowledge takes out the "free".

[Zeta-Flux]

I reject the middle knowledge that you are describing. The problem with your view and your analogy is that the future actions of humans simply don't exist in the present. Answer me this, after looking through the window and seeing Joe, let's say, eating a sandwich in five minutes, could Joe choose not to eat a sandwich in five minutes?

Those are faith based claims, which you are free to espouse and believe. However, (1) they are not self-evident, and (2) they seem to contradict our scriptures and the words of prophets about how God interacts with time.

Furthermore, there is no "middle knowledge" expressed in my post. I talked about God gaining His knowledge of our future actions by Him viewing us doing them; not from some ability of God to know the truth of all propositions, including counter-factuals.

The answer to your question is "yes", Joe could choose not to eat a sandwich in five minutes. Of course, he won't choose that option, but he will be free to, nonetheless.

[TAO]

If God sees today that I will rob a bank tomorrow, then could I choose to not rob a bank tomorrow? No, there is only one choice because of God's foreknowledge. It is true that I would still be making the decision, but the foreknowledge would exclude me from being able to chose to do anything else and thus make it so that I am not morally responsible for my choices, which defeats the puropose of God's whole plan.

2 Nephi 2:27:

Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

Helaman 14:30:

And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free.

I think that perfect foreknowledge takes out the "free".

Mapman, this is why God rarely tells us about his foreknowledge - he only gives what is necessary. He still has foreknowledge, but he chooses not to reveal to us what our futures will be unless necessary.