Question on Salvation

[ELF1024]

It bothers me that we teach that a person who having rejected the gospel in this life can repent in the spirit world, turn to Christ, be baptized and show obedience to the house of God (temple ordinances) and yet be denied the eternal kingdom of the Father (the celestial). What makes them any different? Have they not made the same exact covenants? Have they not repented of all their sins? Are they not spotless? Why let them reign on the earth for a thousand years as resurrected beings with Christ if they just get kicked off in the end? It truly baffles my mind that we have not graduated beyond this point. Perhaps it all has to do with a reluctance to accept the temple endowment in what it really means because we are just too timid to just talk about it in basic dialogue.

It bugs me as well. However, the judge has a perfect knowledge of the person in question. If the judge was anyone other than our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, then I would spend more time worrying about it. However, when the judge has a perfect knowledge and is perfect, then a perfect balance between Mercy and Justice will prevail.

Chalk it up to faith that someone isn't going to be able to "get one by" Jesus the Christ.

[Maidservant]

To the OP:

My suggestion is that you study many references about fire in connection with God and see what it teaches you. I would never rest on just one verse of scripture for anything. Start in 1 Nephi chapter 15 (where fire = justice), but there is much more.

Also I find it telling that the Mosiah scripture you quoted is where Alma is trying to find out from God how to deal with transgressors from the Church. And God is telling him to forgive over and over again if they repent, and PUTS OFF the judgment to some far future. So this passage is really about God's mercy.

Study, study, study!

[David T]

It has been a fully study of the scriptures, including the teachings of the New Testament, and recognizing the way and means knowledge was unfolded which makes the system so clear to me. I'll try to explain:

Justification: This is a dichotomy. You're either justified (forgiven of sin), or you're not. This is what allows one into the Kingdom of God (any of the kingdoms of Glory), period. Only Christ is self-Justified. Everyone else must enter into Covenant (Baptism) with Christ to be adopted His son or daughter to be Justified. In the end, every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, recognize Him as Lord, and submit to this ordinance. Those who refuse at the last day will do so in open Rebellion, and be Cut Off. They are not sons of Christ, they are sons of Perdition.

Sanctification: Just because one is Justified, does not one mean is Sanctified, or made Holy. The Gift of the Holy Ghost, working in an individual who submits to it, will be cleansed, refined, and purified. This is how sinful desires and sinful nature is removed. One who does not willfully and humbly submit will not be fully cleansed of their inward desires, even though they may be justified. While they will be welcome into the direct presence of the Lord, they will not be able to 'abide' His presence, and, will by of their own choice, distance themselves from Him (the further away from the Father, the lesser the Glory). This is why we focus on having individuals accept the Gospel now. It gives them the opportunity to begin the Sanctification process. It will never be too late to be Justified - which is how the Lord will judge us. Sanctification, however, takes time. And we will judge ourselves according to this.

For those who have been Justified and Sanctified, and have chosen to accept the ordinances of Exaltation, and have striven to magnify them, they will be able to advance within the Direct Presence of God. There will be different paths of service to the Lord and His Work. Some will choose to lovingly devote themselves to being the Lord's Messenger and Servant (Angel) for Eternity. Others will choose to continue on and emulate the Father's work wore directly, eternally United and made One with their Companion.

The Book of Mormon (and the New Testament) generally teaches the dichotomy of those who accept the Covenant and are Justified, and those who do not, while also teaching what Hell it would be to dwell in God's presence without being Sanctified.

D&C 76 expands upon the mercy of the Lord by dividing the Kingdom of Heaven into degrees, and expanding upon Outer Darkness (Eternal Hell).

D&C 131 and 132 expands upon Celestial Glory, revealing that there are 3 Degrees within the Celestial Sphere, and giving one set of requirements for the 3rd Degree - the Ultimate Goal.

The Temple expands upon the degrees in the Celestial Glory to an even greater and more specific degree, among an expanded View of the Eternities.

It is a beautiful and fully coherent revelation for those who take historical context of what principles have been revealed and what is being taught at a certain time into consideration in the Revealed Texts.

It is the plan of Mercy. It is by grace we are saved (Justified, allowed into God's Kingdom). However, to be prepared to dwell with our Father, we must submit to the Spirit, and allow Him to cleanse us. That is our choice, and that is our judgement.

[mercyngrace]

nack,

Why make promises regarding mortality if the temple drama represents only the postmortal period?

My full study of the scriptures has made one wonder why God refers to His kingdom in the singular without exception.

MnG

PS I do appreciate your view as it is one I held myself. I presently believe there is more to the temple than this view allows.

[Rob Osborn]

What I have always found as particular interest is that in Reveleations John speaks of the New Jerusalem (celestial Kingdom) as the one and only kingdom and that all of the saved have their names written here and have access to this holy city wherein is the tree of life and the throne of God. All the saved are admitted to this city except for the sons of perdition who have their part in the lake of fire and brimstone. So, in this case, if it is correct, there are only two places in the end for people to go- either into the holy city to dwell in Gods direct presence or into the lake of fire and brimstone with the devil and his angels.

[mercyngrace]

What I have always found as particular interest is that in Reveleations John speaks of the New Jerusalem (celestial Kingdom) as the one and only kingdom and that all of the saved have their names written here and have access to this holy city wherein is the tree of life and the throne of God. All the saved are admitted to this city except for the sons of perdition who have their part in the lake of fire and brimstone. So, in this case, if it is correct, there are only two places in the end for people to go- either into the holy city to dwell in Gods direct presence or into the lake of fire and brimstone with the devil and his angels.

Yep.

The degrees are within the kingdom.

[David T]

nack,

Why make promises regarding mortality if the temple drama represents only the postmortal period?

Because character traits and attributes are necessary to be developed in order to be not only granted specific responsibilities, but also be able to fulfill those responsibilities in a Godlike manner. The Covenants are part of an Eternal Pattern. Each of the Covenants teach an Eternal Principle we need to learn, and teach something concerning our relationship to the Lord, and how we become like Him.

I suggest one powerful way to view the Endowment (and Sealings) is to look at the Woman as representing the Church as a whole (and members of the Church - male and female - as individuals. That's right! Men - view yourself as Eve during a session. It's okay! You can do it! It's Kosher!) and to view the Man (Adam) as Christ. I did that last time I attended a session, and it had an extraordinarily powerful effect on me. Prep for this experience, before and after, with a careful reading of Ephesians 5. It taught me some powerful things concerning the Condescension of Christ, and the love He has for His Bride.

[Rob Osborn]

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 15)

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

(New Testament | Revelation 21:7 -

[mercyngrace]

Because character traits and attributes are necessary to be developed in order to be not only granted specific responsibilities, but also be able to fulfill those responsibilities in a Godlike manner. The Covenants are part of an Eternal Pattern. Each of the Covenants teach an Eternal Principle we need to learn, and teach something concerning our relationship to the Lord, and how we become like Him.

I suggest one powerful way to view the Endowment (and Sealings) is to look at the Woman as representing the Church as a whole (and members of the Church - male and female - as individuals. That's right! Men - view yourself as Eve during a session. It's okay! You can do it! It's Kosher!) and to view the Man (Adam) as Christ. I did that last time I attended a session, and it had an extraordinarily powerful effect on me. Prep for this experience, before and after, with a careful reading of Ephesians 5. It taught me some powerful things concerning the Condescension of Christ, and the love He has for His Bride.

Those are good ideas.

The issues that need resolving aren't only in the endowment. The only satisfactory answer I have found is that the temple drama must be showing progression from premortality through exaltation. Otherwise certain phrases simply don't make sense.

[David T]

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 15)

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

(New Testament | Revelation 21:7 -

Justification by the Covenant of Christ removes the penalty for all these things. Those who knowingly reject the Covenant at the Last Day, however, will be held accountable, and truly become Sons of Perdition in the veritable Lake of Fire.

[frankenstein]

Can I get a reference for this one, Frank?

should read are not Sons of Perdition.

[David T]

Those are good ideas.

The issues that need resolving aren't only in the endowment. The only satisfactory answer I have found is that the temple drama must be showing progression from premortality through exaltation. Otherwise certain phrases simply don't make sense.

I have developed an especially profound love for the initiatory ordinances. Serving as an ordinance worker and memorizing the specific and unique phrasing was a highlight. Sometimes I will rehearse the entire process and specific promises in my mind. I think more members should spend more time in initiatories. They are extraordinarily profound, and are essential to understanding the full temple experience.

[mercyngrace]

I have developed an especially profound love for the initiatory ordinances. Serving as an ordinance worker and memorizing the specific and unique phrasing was a highlight. Sometimes I will rehearse the entire process and specific promises in my mind. I think more members should spend more time in initiatories. They are extraordinarily profound, and are essential to understanding the full temple experience.

[Katzpur]

Thank you all for your answers so far! I didn't expect to see so much dialogue on my question. In thinking about my OP, I am wondering if maybe we are given a strict Heaven vs Hell dichotomy in the Bible and Book of Mormon because that's really what we need. How effective would these scriptures be in providing the impetus for us to change our lives if they said, "But if you don't want to bother being obedient in this life, you can always repent in the Spirit World." Anyone who was to use that reasoning as a excuse not to repent would probably not be any more repentant after death. It's a very comforting thought -- especially to those of us who have grown children who have made the choice to separate themselves from the teachings of the gospel -- to know that they will still have the opportunity to repent after this life is over, and it's really the only thing a truly just God could offer to those who hadn't had the chance to hear the gospel during their mortality. Maybe we need to go about our lives believing that Hell will be our fate if we do not live as we know we should here and now.

[Lightbearer]

So my question is, will those who are resurrected at the end of the Millennium end up being cast into Outer Darkness or be admitted to the Telestial Kingdom? I can't picture the Telestial Kingdom as being "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Or am I misunderstanding these verses (and the many others like them) completely?

From the additional light and knowledge we get from the Doctrine and Covenants we know the following:

(D&C 76:32-43) "They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come

[Rob Osborn]

From the additional light and knowledge we get from the Doctrine and Covenants we know the following:From the above we learn that the sons of perdition are the only ones who are not "redeemed... after the sufferings of his wrath" and also the only ones whom the atoning blood does not save from ultimate spiritual death. Yet apparently some must taste of this spiritual death (not as a never ending punishment, but as a penalty for not repenting when given the opportunity.) As declared here:So apparently those who go to the Telestial are heirs of some part of salvation even if they must suffer in hell to get it. Yet they ultimately, after they are sufficiently humbled are Christ's :

It should be noted that there are two spiritual deaths. The first spiritual death comes upon man in mortality when they become accountable and sin. Through repentance and baptism this spiritual death can be overcome either here in mortality or in the spirit world. This first spiritual death continues for the unrepentant up until they either repent or until they come forth in the resurrection which ends at the end of the millennium. There is no "second spiritual death" until all are resurrected and judged who can be. The second spiritual death is not covered, at least as far as we know, by the atonement and is suffered by all those who go with the devil and his angels into hell after resurrection and jusgment. It should also be noted that one cannot pay a penalty himself to reap salvation. It is true that some must pay some type of penalty in hell for their sins, but in order to be redeemed from that hell one must repent and be baptized in order to reap salvation.

Note here that the inhabitants of the Telestial world, while they are redeemed from hell, after the bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ, will not be able to come where God or Christ is (the Celestial Kingdom) and so at least according to D&C 76 the Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial are distinct kingdoms of glory... and yet there is administrations from higher kingdoms to the lower. I am sure there is a lot we cannot at present comprehend, yet the Lord will reveal it when we are prepared to understand and believe it.

For me and my understanding from a temple perspective and understanding, this makes no sense because on one hand we have to admit that no man can be saved to any glory unless he is spotless and yet on the other hand we subsequntly refute that by stating they must not be spotless because they cannot come back into God's presence. From the temple perspective, the telestial kingdom will not exist once the terrestrial kingdom comes about. So, when section 76 speaks of the telestial world I can't help but think that what Joseph saw was our world as it has been and currently is- the telestial kingdom. This knowledge was revealed in the temple I believe.

So it appears the timing of our accepting the atonement of Christ is vital to our ultimate glory, we in the Church teach those principles of Exaltation that are necessary for entering the highest kingdom in the Celestial Kingdom.

I honestly believe we teach how to achieve each kingdom and that ultimately those laws we learn, step by step, kingdom by kingdom culminate in the knowledge to possess the celestial kingdom. The temple teaches certain laws and ordinances and covenants that must be made in order to advance from one kingdom into the next. So, in reality we really do teach how to possess each of the three kingdoms- we do so in steps. As Jacob's ladder goes- we do it one rung at a time.

As for the timing, I am in disagreement here. The reality is that once someone has achieved the humility sifficient to repent and be baptized it places him as a son or daughter into the kingdom of heaven- he or she then has that special status. They become the same type of individual who are worthy to recieve all of the temple blessings. This is one area doctrinally speaking that the church really needs to clean up on, it has it's unique set of flaws.

That is the goal, but it is comforting to know that God has prepared a place for all, and that we will be judged according to our works. None are "lost" ultimately except the sons of perdition, those who have gone beyond the saving grace of Christ... because they are unwilling to except His grace or to follow Him. That is why they are eternally condemned, it is their own doing, because of their agency. The following I think explains this:So while we are required to abide by the law of the Kingdom to which we desire to enter, we still receive the gift of salvation... yet we are judged according to our works. Sons of perdition are not justifed or sanctified but are filthy still because they abide not the law of any kingdom... which is why the second death has all power over them and Christ cannot redeem them from that spiritual death (which he does for all others... even those who end up in the Telestial Kingdom after they suffer a portion of spiritual death) as it explains here: Note that according to D&C 76 those who go to the Telestial Kingdom will enjoy the administrations of the Holy Ghost (a member of the Godhead) and that even though they must first suffer that spiritual death in hell before being redeemed, yet they are not like the sons of perdition who are completely lost and cut off from God and His spirit. So to summarize, all will be resurrected including the sons of perdition, and all will be redeemed from spirtual death, except the sons of perdition, those who go to the Telestial will suffer spiritual death for 1,000 years (at least) until they have paid the uttermost farthing, and then they will bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ. Though they will be deprived of the glories of the Celestial and Terrestrial, thy will merit some degree of glory and will enjoy the administration of the Holy Ghost. I hope this helps, this is the understanding that I have of these issues and how it relates to us His children.

See, I disagree here. I believe this understanding doe snot include the understanding of what the temple teaches. Let's think logically here. We know that in order to be redeemed from hell one has to show compliance to the preparatory gospel which includes faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance and baptism by immersion and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now certainly this means nothing by itself- it is just a"prearatory gospel" meaning that it is done in order to and for the sole purpose of qualifying one to recieve the higher laws which is also for the sole purpose of advancing that individual to become like God.

The sufferings spoken of in section 19 are spoken of exclusively for those who go into the second death after resurrection. The exact specific wording used to describe their suffering is traced to scriptures depicting the state of the sole for the unrepentant after the millennium- after resurrection and judgment.

[David T]

Let's think logically here. We know that in order to be redeemed from hell one has to show compliance to the preparatory gospel which includes faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance and baptism by immersion and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now certainly this means nothing by itself-

It does mean something - these are the principles of Justification and Sanctification - that which permits and allows us to dwell in the Kingdom of God. 'Salvation' proper - Salvation from Outer Darkness, or Eternal Hell. It is the key message of the New Testament and Book of Mormon.

it is just a"prearatory gospel" meaning that it is done in order to and for the sole purpose of qualifying one to recieve the higher laws which is also for the sole purpose of advancing that individual to become like God.

IE, Exaltation, advancement in the differing degrees within the Celestial Kingdom, which, it appears to me, is what is taught in the Temple. This is pertaining to priesthood, angelic service, and kingship, and goes beyond simple 'citizenship' in the kingdom, which is provided for the Saved who chose not to progress in Exaltation.

At least, this is how I see it.

[Rob Osborn]

It does mean something - these are the principles of Justification and Sanctification - that which permits and allows us to dwell in the Kingdom of God. 'Salvation' proper - Salvation from Outer Darkness, or Eternal Hell. It is the key message of the New Testament and Book of Mormon.

IE, Exaltation, advancement in the differing degrees within the Celestial Kingdom, which, it appears to me, is what is taught in the Temple. This is pertaining to priesthood, angelic service, and kingship, and goes beyond simple 'citizenship' in the kingdom, which is provided for the Saved who chose not to progress in Exaltation.

At least, this is how I see it.

There is a reason it is calle dthe preparatory gospel. I do not believe it is possible for someone to exist in eternity to stagnate at this step. the gospel is not set up or intended this way. it is set up in a manner that shows how one should progress line upon line precept upon precept.

In reality the whole preparatory gospel is set up for the higher endowments which pertain exclusivley to exaltation- being married eternally and thus be gods ourselves. I personally believe that once one gets on the apth that eventually they either become Gods themselves or head off into perdition. Just my own prejudice there though. The whole endowment ceremony is focused on the "married couple' not on the singular individual. Perhaps in time it will become part of doctrine that true salvation from hell requires all of the temple endowments and sealings including the marriage covenant. Christ hinted to us in the NT that man is nothing without the women and neither the women without the man. i personally think he was referring to salvation here.

[David T]

There is a reason it is calle dthe preparatory gospel. I do not believe it is possible for someone to exist in eternity to stagnate at this step. the gospel is not set up or intended this way. it is set up in a manner that shows how one should progress line upon line precept upon precept.

I'd like to recommend C.S. Lewis' book The Great Divorce. It's worth purchasing, but you could pick it up from the library. It's quick read. While not scripture, I think it presents, in parable form, one of the most profound visualized insights into the afterlife that has ever been written, and one that can be especially profound for LDS. I find this book to be Lewis at his most profound.