Question on Salvation

[Katzpur]

Okay, I'm confused. I have always been of the opinion that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept Christ, either during mortality nor in the Spirit World prior to His Second Coming will be made to remain in the Spirit Prison for the duration of the Millennium, and that at the end of the Millennium, they too will be resurrected, will be made to stand before God to be judged and will then be admitted to the Telestial Kingdom. I have always believed, and have explained to non-members, that the only individuals who will be cast into Outer Darkness are those who commit the unpardonable sin, or blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. While I can't actually recall ever having heard blasphemy against the Holy Ghost defined by the brethren, by piecing things together bit by bit, I have concluded that there aren't really a great many people who have even been in a position to commit this sin -- that it would require that the individual have the kind of knowledge given to just a few people (e.g. Joseph Smith, the Apostles who witnessed Christ's Transfiguration, etc.) and then deny what they absolutely knew to be true.

Anyway, I am in the process of re-reading the Book of Mormon. I keep coming to passages that seem to contradict what I have always been taught and teach instead something more along the lines of the mainstream Christian "Lake of Fire" and an eternal punishment. The passage I just read, which prompted this question, was Mosiah 26: 25-27. This passage reads:

And it shall come to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come forth and shall stand before me. And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed. And then I will confess unto them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

So my question is, will those who are resurrected at the end of the Millennium end up being cast into Outer Darkness or be admitted to the Telestial Kingdom? I can't picture the Telestial Kingdom as being "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Or am I misunderstanding these verses (and the many others like them) completely?

[TAO]

Good question, that it is. Let's look at verse 28 though for a bit.

Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.

Therefore, they who know him not are those who do not accept the gospel in this day or the last.

Follow this via reference to Luke 13:27-28

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thust out.

Thus, the eternal punishment, the everlasting fire is... first off spirit prison.... and then... not being in the presence of the Son. Which I have to imagine is a bit depressing.

[Rob Osborn]

Okay, I'm confused. I have always been of the opinion that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept Christ, either during mortality nor in the Spirit World prior to His Second Coming will be made to remain in the Spirit Prison for the duration of the Millennium, and that at the end of the Millennium, they too will be resurrected, will be made to stand before God to be judged and will then be admitted to the Telestial Kingdom. I have always believed, and have explained to non-members, that the only individuals who will be cast into Outer Darkness are those who commit the unpardonable sin, or blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. While I can't actually recall ever having heard blasphemy against the Holy Ghost defined by the brethren, by piecing things together bit by bit, I have concluded that there aren't really a great many people who have even been in a position to commit this sin -- that it would require that the individual have the kind of knowledge given to just a few people (e.g. Joseph Smith, the Apostles who witnessed Christ's Transfiguration, etc.) and then deny what they absolutely knew to be true.

Anyway, I am in the process of re-reading the Book of Mormon. I keep coming to passages that seem to contradict what I have always been taught and teach instead something more along the lines of the mainstream Christian "Lake of Fire" and an eternal punishment. The passage I just read, which prompted this question, was Mosiah 26: 25-27. This passage reads:

And it shall come to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come forth and shall stand before me. And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed. And then I will confess unto them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

So my question is, will those who are resurrected at the end of the Millennium end up being cast into Outer Darkness or be admitted to the Telestial Kingdom? I can't picture the Telestial Kingdom as being "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Or am I misunderstanding these verses (and the many others like them) completely?

I too went down this road trying to have a better understanding of the concepts of salvation in our religion. So far, from what I have gathered, there does seem to be a discrepency in our LDS doctrine concerning those who never repent. Strictly from the Book of Mormon perspective, no salvation is offered the dead who died in their sins. From the pages of our current BoM, there is no mention of repentance after death. I presume the BoM prophets either did not understand the afterlife or just did not know what it was for. Modern latter day doctrine informs us that repenatce and forgiveness is granted to those who died in their sins but later repent in the spirit world.

Of course this is a very touchy topic around here because of the discrepencies involved. On one hand we teach that there is salvation for those who choose not to repent and suffer for their own sins in full being redeemed at the end of the millennium, and on the other hand we teach that there can be no salvation where there is no repentance and acceptance of Christ, who of course is the only one who can save, and save only the repentant at that.

So, what are we as LDS to do. Well we certainly must stand by our revealed leaders and uphold their words. And, as LDS we must also actively seek out the truth on our own. If it means coming up with contradictory doctrines such as we are speaking of then of course the proper channels must be accessed and worked through to see the necessary changes.

In my heart I honestly believe that there can be no salvation from hell eternally if one chooses not to accept Christ, his gospel, and remains unrepenatant at the time of resurrection after the millennium. There are a lot of our scriptures that support this view and I believe it is correct. I also believe it is correct to teach this as sound doctrine although it is a controversial doctrine in some eyes of the church. It gets on dicey ground because of the obvious discrepency though.

[TAO]

Strictly from the Book of Mormon perspective, no salvation is offered the dead who died in their sins. From the pages of our current BoM, there is no mention of repentance after death.

Erm... there isn't repentance after death. There isn't any sin for ignorance though. See Mosiah 3:11.

For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.

Also note that humility is the spirit which allows you to be forgiven of sins you have 'forgotten about'. Having a humble heart sort of acts like a blanket repentance - because you would repent of all your sins if you could. Alma 5:27.

Have ye walked, keeping yourselves ^ablameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently ^bhumble? That your garments have been ^ccleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to ^dredeem his people from their sins?

[mercyngrace]

Rob,

There are no discrepancies. The BOM allows for repentance after death. Consider the scripture oft used to deny post-mortal repentance:

Alma 34:33-35

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

This life continues until the eternal world or post-resurrection period. The spirit world is part of this life. This is further confirmed when we read of the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. We know early Christians performed ordinances for the dead. We perform them now. Labors are performed in the Spirit world. The only time no labors can be performed is after the final resurrection when Christ has completed His work, trodden all enemies underfoot, and presented the Kingdom spotless to His Father. These events are specifically chronicalled in D&C 76.

We are warned not to procrastinate our repentance until death. We usually presume this is mortality and even the footnotes link to the TG entry for that word but there is only one death which only claims the unrepentant and at which point Satan seals those who belong to him. This is the second death, which only Sons of Perdition suffer.

This is indeed the final state of the wicked. Final because there are none other wicked but followers of perdition. The rest are now "spotless".

I'm increasingly convinced that all scriptures can be reconciled.

MnG

[Rob Osborn]

Rob,

There are no discrepancies. The BOM allows for repentance after death. Consider the scripture oft used to deny post-mortal repentance:

Alma 34:33-35

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

This life continues until the eternal world or post-resurrection period. The spirit world is part of this life. This is further confirmed when we read of the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. We know early Christians performed ordinances for the dead. We perform them now. Labors are performed in the Spirit world. The only time no labors can be performed is after the final resurrection when Christ has completed His work, trodden all enemies underfoot, and presented the Kingdom spotless to His Father. These events are specifically chronicalled in D&C 76.

We are warned not to procrastinate our repentance until death. We usually presume this is mortality and even the footnotes link to the TG entry for that word but there is only one death which only claims the unrepentant and at which point Satan seals those who belong to him. This is the second death, which only Sons of Perdition suffer.

This is indeed the final state of the wicked. Final because there are none other wicked but followers of perdition. The rest are now "spotless".

I'm increasingly convinced that all scriptures can be reconciled.

MnG

There very much is a discrepency. The BoM states nowhere that those who knowigly die in their sins can repent in the spirit world. The BoM states that the fate of these souls is forever sealed to hell. Now of course modern scripture such as in the D&C state otherwise- that repentance and forgiveness and salvation from hell can be granted to those who knowingly die in their sins.

The boM is largely cluless when it comes to the work for the dead- it doesn't teach any doctrine on that matter. It was thus presumed that "this life" was the "only opportunity" to repent for those who knew what sin was.

The discrepency lies in the fact that the BoM does not teach that repentance is available after death for those who died in their sins for those specifically having rejected the propphets in mortality.

The discrepency continues because futher, it is taught that Christ will redeem those unrepentant souls who choose never to repent but are nevertheless not sons of perdition either. Here is the problem-

How can Christ save anyone who does not comply with his gispel? He has already said over and over again that he has no power to save those who do not repent and turn to him.

So, in reality, there is repentance after death even for those w as the BoM said were sealed to Satan because of their refusal to repent in mortality.

There are other issues dealing with heaven and hell that I will bring up later.

[mercyngrace]

There are other issues dealing with heaven and hell that I will bring up later.

Please do!

Obviously, I'm seeing the BOM through the lens of the D&C and my footnotes so when I read that Nephi was given the sealing power and when I read Malachi 4 quoted in the BOM or the account of the Nephites in Zion (4 Ne. 1) marrying and given in marriage "according to the multitude of the promises the Lord had made unto them", I see temple ordinances. Not sure anyone has made that argument before, it's not something I've put time into studying yet. (Adding to my to-do list )

And take the explanations of Alma 40. They clearly refer to the suffering of the wicked in the spirit world (that space between the resurrection of the spirit and of the body, he calls it, iirc). Consistent with hell as described in D&C 76.

It's interesting that in Alma 41 first we read men are judged by their works then we read they are judged by their desires. There is even a refence to those who are redeeemed from "that endless night of darkness" (hell).

I haven't studied it enough to make an argument so I won't but if you're willing, I'd love for you to walk me through what you are seeing so I can learn something.

Do you think the BOM warnings are especially dire because they are directed to an audience that already had the gospel? There is a presumed baseline of knowledge, perhaps? Again, just wondering.

Also, in the BOM, Nephites built temples, tabernacles, and sanctuaries. What is the difference between these in terms of the Nephite church? Just wondering, I don't know that I've even read anything differentiating these buildings.

[mercyngrace]

double post

[Rob Osborn]

Please do!

Obviously, I'm seeing the BOM through the lens of the D&C and my footnotes so when I read that Nephi was given the sealing power and when I read Malachi 4 quoted in the BOM or the account of the Nephites in Zion (4 Ne. 1) marrying and given in marriage "according to the multitude of the promises the Lord had made unto them", I see temple ordinances. Not sure anyone has made that argument before, it's not something I've put time into studying yet. (Adding to my to-do list )

Seeing the gospel through different lens' is a reality in LDS life. We have an abundance of knowledge and yet very few have set the time aside to hash it all out! And, I am not kidding at all there! There are at least 4 sets of lens' that we view the gospel through. Specifically, there are 4 sets of diffewrent glasses just to view the differences in how we view heaven and hell and basic salvation and some of those views clash with each other.

The first view is that taken from our lesson manuals which is basically the interpretation of the plan through the D&C lens. Everything in this view gets the D&C view. This is the typical 3 world salvation model where the very righteous are saved to the Celestial, the not so righteous to the terrestrial world, and the wicked to the telestial world which consequently are cut off from Gods direct presence. Through this lens, the mormon definitions of salvation s told in the New Testament and the BoM are slightly altered to mean different things than traditional Christianity. For instance- the word "damned" can now mean a degree of salvation, just in a lower order of kingdom. This view clashes with other perspectives that thus follow-

The second view is that seen from an early protestant view early in the church and is detailed specifically from an interpretation of the New tTestament coupled with the BoM. Under this view there is only one heaven and one hell. Although scholars have made references to there being mention of degrees of heaven mentioned in these texts, it is only done so without and in disregards to our current interpretation view of #1 mentioned above. I say this because there has to be a separation of explanations in order for the texts of the NT and BoM to make sense. In this view, there are only righteous on the right hand and the wicked on the left hand. Those on the right are the sons and daughters of God and return to live in his physical presence while those on the left are cast aside into outer darkness. In this view there are not three separate worlds for the saved but rather just "one" it being this earth after the millennium. In this view however, there is the mention of differing types of glory or reward within that one heaven. In this view all that is required to enter heaven is repentance and baptism and remaining on this path. What this view often fails to get accross is the fact that this is just the preparatory salvation work that is basically silent on the perfecting ordinances that are missing (temple)

The third view is that of the temple. In the temple it is still a strict heaven and hell dichotomy. But, here we seem to bridge a gap between view number 1 and view number 2. Now it is explained what the three separate worlds are in relation to our personal salvation and perfecting ordinances. This is the view not accepted by the vast majority because it is hard to discern the truths revealed. Because everyone is viewing the gospel through view #1, they fail to make the correct connection of what the temple is saying in regards to the three different worlds- the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial. The temple teaches that the two lower worlds are in fact just stages of our earth in it's temporal existance and that we each must pass through these lower kingdoms in order to end up in the celestial world. The temple teaches (and it is no secret) that this earth right now is the telestial kingdom. Although the kingdom of God is set up on this earth and a part of this experience here, it is not considered the "kingdom of heaven" as is frequently mentioned in the BoM and NT. From this kingdom we progress into the terrestrial which of course will be the earth during Christ's 1000 year reign. From there we finally go back into the Father's presence in the celestialwhich is once again this earth after the millennium. I must now explain why the "three heavens" as mentioned in the bible makes relevence to view number 2 and view number 3.

Joseph Smith in interpreting the vision of OT prophet Jacob, (Jacob's ladder) he mentions that the vision Paul saw was in regards to Jacobs ladder and that the lowest rung was the telestial kingdom, the middle rung was the terrestrial kingdom and the top rung, or "third heaven" was the celestial kingdom. Speaking of heaven and perfection, Joseph also mentioned in his life about climbing a ladder "one rung at a time". This of course now fits into both view #2 and view #3 because in the end there will only be one heaven (one world) and yet all three heavens are now explained. This view also ties in with view #4 which we will get to shortly.

In view #4 we have the tieing in of all the views. Coupling the D&C with the Bible and BoM and PoGP along with the temple and lesson matarials we can explain where our doctrine is heading and what it means. This view creates the proper bridge to realize that even though we have official doctrine, it does not mean that it is "official truth". It means that our doctrine is evolving. This view helps us to realize the importance of the work of salvation. Everything mentioned in the BoM and NT regarding the preparatory work is a requirement for access to the salvation that God offers through holy covenant in his temples. The temples are the "garners" spoken of in his parable of the wheat and the tares and also mentioned in latter day times in the D&C. All of our names must be secured in the temples of the Lord while all the tares, who are those unrepentant are burned at the end of the harvest. The important thing to realize here is that the harvest has been started but will continue through the millennium until Christ shall have gathered all of his flock safely in and are written in his holy book of life. This is the view where the main emphasis to Gods work is taking place in the perfection stage during the millennium. You see, none of us are worthy, even at death to enter back into his presence because we have not worked out our perfection yet. Besides this the earth must pass through its own stages of glory or "heaven" to be finally crowned with Gods presence. Right now we are basically in Paul's "first heaven". This heaven will pass away by fire and a new earth and new heaven shall come- the second heaven where we perfect the kingdom, or should I say- when Christ perfects the kingdom.

Now, what is important to realize here is that when Christ comes back to reign on the earth he will bring with him all the righteoussaints. They will all be resurrected. Also, those who repented, paid their penalty, and accepted the gospel in the spirit world will come forth from their graves to also reign on the earth and help with Gods work in the perfecting the kingdom. Obviously they will be doing the Lords work because they indeed have been through all the preparatory work that places them in a spotless manner in order to carry out holy ordinance works. This is the kingdom that Christ is perfecting and will present to the Father spotless at the end of the millennium. This whole kingdom, just as the temple entails will advance along with the earth from the terrestrial phase to the celestial where the Father and his savior- Jesus Christ will sit upon their throne to go no more out.

As you can see, depending on which glasses you have on, there is a varried view of heaven that our doctrine supports.

And take the explanations of Alma 40. They clearly refer to the suffering of the wicked in the spirit world (that space between the resurrection of the spirit and of the body, he calls it, iirc). Consistent with hell as described in D&C 76.

In a sense yes, but, it makes no mention of there being any work done for those who depart into hell (spirit prison). It only states that they remain there until they are resurrected. But, from latter day scripture, it makes clear that once one has repented and paid his small penalty he can leave spirit prison. So, even though the BoM and latter day scripture do describe the correct dichotomy of there being both a prison and a paradise, they describe the penalties and redemption differently.

It's interesting that in Alma 41 first we read men are judged by their works then we read they are judged by their desires. There is even a refence to those who are redeeemed from "that endless night of darkness" (hell).

Again no mention is made to the work for the dead here, only that men will be returned to their bodies and be judged entirely off of what they did or desired to do in mortality. From latter day scripture we know that men will be judged at that day by what they have become (at that moment). Being delivered from the endless night of darkness is in reference to the second death which comes after resurrection and judgment.

I haven't studied it enough to make an argument so I won't but if you're willing, I'd love for you to walk me through what you are seeing so I can learn something.

Do you think the BOM warnings are especially dire because they are directed to an audience that already had the gospel? There is a presumed baseline of knowledge, perhaps? Again, just wondering.

Also, in the BOM, Nephites built temples, tabernacles, and sanctuaries. What is the difference between these in terms of the Nephite church? Just wondering, I don't know that I've even read anything differentiating these buildings.

The BoM warnings are very much relevent even in our day. But they must be view with the additional knowledge of the work for the dead. I presume that their temple worship was much different than our temple work today. Our temple work is directed at the work for the deceased whereas their temple work was directed at other obvious endeavors otherwise they would have had a knowledge of the work for the dead and mentioned it in their scriptures, of the which they did not. Even in the early Latter day Church our temple worship changed quite drastically. Work for the dead wasn't a part of early latter day temple worship. The full endowment took years and years until it was put in place and the work for the dead was established in the temples. Even now, the endowment ceremony has changed, the annointing part has changed. there will continue to be changes. Temples I imagine have played a myriad of roles through the ages to meet the demands of different cultures and thus obvious different circumstances and problems.

[mercyngrace]

Thanks for explaining, Rob. I do see what you are trying to say. I've been actively trying to tie the scriptures and the temple together for so long, I guess I've forgotten how to see them any other way.

Also, just a quick comment regarding the temple. I find that the longer I attend, the less comfortable I am with the teaching I did as a missionary about the post-mortal life. I do see something very different taught in the temple than what I taught and was taught a couple of decades ago. Only in the past few years have I come to understand that D&C 76 wasn't saying what I always thought it was and that the temple tuaght something completely different than I had supposed.

Just a quick thought -

Could the nature of each record be the determining factor in what doctrine is explained therein? Certainly my journal reads differently than specifically recorded revelation. Also, the law we live under affects how we understand doctrine, if my own writings are any indication.

[Rob Osborn]

Thanks for explaining, Rob. I do see what you are trying to say. I've been actively trying to tie the scriptures and the temple together for so long, I guess I've forgotten how to see them any other way.

Also, just a quick comment regarding the temple. I find that the longer I attend, the less comfortable I am with the teaching I did as a missionary about the post-mortal life. I do see something very different taught in the temple than what I taught and was taught a couple of decades ago. Only in the past few years have I come to understand that D&C 76 wasn't saying what I always thought it was and that the temple tuaght something completely different than I had supposed.

Just a quick thought -

Could the nature of each record be the determining factor in what doctrine is explained therein? Certainly my journal reads differently than specifically recorded revelation. Also, the law we live under affects how we understand doctrine, if my own writings are any indication.

Different law is an interesting aspect, especially in mormon doctrine. Take the telestial law for example- Many have wrongly supposed that telestial law is the law of carnality, the law of the world, etc. BRM in his book "Mormon Doctrine" explains it is a law of wickedness. But, in the temple we learn that the law of the telestial kingdom is basic praparatory gospel obedience and that obedience to this law allows us the blessing of the companionship of the Holy Ghost. Terrestrial law includes all the preparatory gospel obedience plus administering gospel obedience including laws of the Melchezidek priesthood. Celestial law is full obedience to both telestial and terrestrial law including also the patriarchal order of the priesthood, the law of consecration, etc. Each law is a refinement of perfection and with obedience to each higher law comes new information as we see in the temple.

[David T]

Thanks for explaining, Rob. I do see what you are trying to say. I've been actively trying to tie the scriptures and the temple together for so long, I guess I've forgotten how to see them any other way.

Also, just a quick comment regarding the temple. I find that the longer I attend, the less comfortable I am with the teaching I did as a missionary about the post-mortal life. I do see something very different taught in the temple than what I taught and was taught a couple of decades ago. Only in the past few years have I come to understand that D&C 76 wasn't saying what I always thought it was and that the temple tuaght something completely different than I had supposed.

Don't be so quick to assume that the Three Degrees presented in the temple are the same 3 Degrees as presented in D&C 76, even though they have the same labels..

Keep in mind that the Temple itself represents the Celestial Kingdom, and progression within that kingdom. Remember how there are Three Degrees within the Celestial Kingdom? Take that with you, and it may re-orient your temple experience, and how the journey is interpreted.

Also interesting is the concept that temple tradition, as presented and preserved in apocalyptic texts such as 2 Enoch, present a individual clothed with a heavenly garment, anointed (becoming an angel/king/priest) , and then brought into the Holy of Holies where they are given a vision of creation upon the veil, followed by the secrets of Wisdom, Creation, Covenant, and Theosis.

Names are symbols as well, and often are re-applied to turn your mind towards a similar concept to teach a different concept.

[Rob Osborn]

Don't be so quick to assume that the Three Degrees presented in the temple are the same 3 Degrees as presented in D&C 76, even though they have the same labels..

Keep in mind that the Temple itself represents the Celestial Kingdom, and progression within that kingdom. Remember how there are Three Degrees within the Celestial Kingdom? Take that with you, and it may re-orient your temple experience, and how the journey is interpreted.

Names are symbols as well, and often are re-applied to turn your mind towards a similar concept to teach a different concept.

The temple represents the entire plan of salvation- from beginning to end. The wording of the endowment is very specific that this earth- the lone and dreary world is "the telestial kingdom".

We should keep that perspective in mind when we go through the endowment-0 that we are literally advancing from one kingdom of glory to the next.

[David T]

The temple represents the entire plan of salvation- from beginning to end. The wording of the endowment is very specific that this earth- the lone and dreary world is "the telestial kingdom".

We should keep that perspective in mind when we go through the endowment-0 that we are literally advancing from one kingdom of glory to the next.

A Baptized member who is faithfully following the commandments and Temple Recommend questions have already entered the Covenant of Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. They are heirs to the Celestial Kingdom, and in terms of the Temple, are already there. It is clear to me that the Covenants entered into in the temple pertain to degrees of Exaltation, not simply entrance into the Celestial Kingdom ('Salvation').

the first degree of the Celestial Kingdom, preliminary membership in the Church, for those who have not yet received and kept the ordinances of Exaltation, is, for those going through the Temple for the first time, "The world in which they now live", pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Again - the covenants made outside the Temple qualify one for Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom -life in the presence of God. The and covenants of the Temple are preparation for exaltation (advancement) within the Kingdom.

[mercyngrace]

Don't be so quick to assume that the Three Degrees presented in the temple are the same 3 Degrees as presented in D&C 76, even though they have the same labels..

Keep in mind that the Temple itself represents the Celestial Kingdom, and progression within that kingdom. Remember how there are Three Degrees within the Celestial Kingdom? Take that with you, and it may re-orient your temple experience, and how the journey is interpreted.

Also interesting is the concept that temple tradition, as presented and preserved in apocalyptic texts such as 2 Enoch, present a individual clothed with a heavenly garment, anointed (becoming an angel/king/priest) , and then brought into the Holy of Holies where they are given a vision of creation upon the veil, followed by the secrets of Wisdom, Creation, Covenant, and Theosis.

Names are symbols as well, and often are re-applied to turn your mind towards a similar concept to teach a different concept.

I don't presume they are the same nack. I presume we teach this badly. In fact, I know we teach this badly because I've had countless conversations in which faithful temple-attending members of the church can't agree on the most basic points.

[David T]

I don't presume they are the same nack. I presume we teach this badly. In fact, I know we teach this badly because I've had countless conversations in which faithful temple-attending members of the church can't agree on the most basic points.

Gotcha. I just don't see how the Missionary lessons present anything in conflict with this. Their goal, however, is not teaching the goal of Salvation, but rather Exaltation.

It is true that the Church as a whole tends to skip over (mere?) Salvation, and place the focus on Exaltation - which is proper (it is the intended destination) - but in doing so, I do think many members conflate the concepts of Salvation and Exaltation.

This is perhaps what causes confusion for many with the Temple Experience. Exaltation is too often equated with the Celestial Kingdom, rather than the highest degree therein.

[mercyngrace]

Gotcha. I just don't see how the Missionary lessons present anything in conflict with this. Their goal, however, is not teaching the goal of Salvation, but rather Exaltation.

It is true that the Church as a whole tends to skip over (mere?) Salvation, and place the focus on Exaltation - which is proper (it is the intended destination) - but in doing so, I do think many members conflate the concepts of Salvation and Exaltation.

This is perhaps what causes confusion for many with the Temple Experience. Exaltation is too often equated with the Celestial Kingdom, rather than the highest degree therein.

Joseph Smith "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him." TPJS

[David T]

Joseph Smith "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him." TPJS

Yes, from Rigdon's Lectures on Faith (I've actually been in the process of reading them through again).

The context is that they were drafted In 1834-1835, before the principles of Exaltation as a division of Salvation was revealed or made clear (this is significantly previous to the Endowment and Sealing ordinances being presented as we understand them today).

This principle was specifically abrogated by D&C 132:17, which clearly teaches of the existence of un-exalted Salvation.

[mercyngrace]

Yes, from Rigdon's Lectures on Faith (I've actually been in the process of reading them through again).

The context is that they were given In 1834-1835, before the principles of Exaltation as a division of Salvation was revealed or made clear (this is significantly previous to the Endowment and Sealing ordinances being presented as we understand them today).

My point is simply that some confusion among the saints is understandable which I think underscores my point. We don't teach this well.

[David T]

My point is simply that some confusion among the saints is understandable which I think underscores my point. We don't teach this well.

Well, to be fair, the Lectures on Faith were dropped from the canon, as several specific principles taught therein were abrogated by further revelation. I'm not aware of any current Church curriculum that cites this passage in terms of defining Salvation (although McConkie was a big advocate of removing the Salvation/Exaltation dichotomy - a key reason, I think, for the cultural prevalence of the misunderstanding).

[mercyngrace]

Well, to be fair, the Lectures on Faith were dropped from the canon, as several specific principles taught therein were abrogated by further revelation. I'm not aware of any current Church curriculum that cites this passage in terms of defining Salvation (although McConkie was a big advocate of removing the Salvation/Exaltation dichotomy - a key reason, I think, for the cultural prevalence of the misunderstanding).

I think we are still coming to understand things Joseph Smith knew.

For example, in 1973, Elder Boyd K. Packer is recorded as saying in explicit reference to the second death, Whether or not you overcome the spiritual death

[Rob Osborn]

I think we are still coming to understand things Joseph Smith knew.

For example, in 1973, Elder Boyd K. Packer is recorded as saying in explicit reference to the second death, Whether or not you overcome the spiritual death

[frankenstein]

So my question is, will those who are resurrected at the end of the Millennium end up being cast into Outer Darkness or be admitted to the Telestial Kingdom? I can't picture the Telestial Kingdom as being "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Or am I misunderstanding these verses (and the many others like them) completely?

Telestial Kingdom is reserved for those who have not a testimony of Christ but are *not Sons of Perdition.

Outer Darkness is for Satan, his followers and Sons of Perdition.

EDITED: after being shown by mercyngrace that there was a key word missing.

[mercyngrace]

It bothers me that we teach that a person who having rejected the gospel in this life can repent in the spirit world, turn to Christ, be baptized and show obedience to the house of God (temple ordinances) and yet be denied the eternal kingdom of the Father (the celestial). What makes them any different? Have they not made the same exact covenants? Have they not repented of all their sins? Are they not spotless? Why let them reign on the earth for a thousand years as resurrected beings with Christ if they just get kicked off in the end? It truly baffles my mind that we have not graduated beyond this point. Perhaps it all has to do with a reluctance to accept the temple endowment in what it really means because we are just too timid to just talk about it in basic dialogue.

Or fear of God being too merciful. Or fear that people will remain in a state of wickedness and believe they can be saved in their sins. Or maybe we just think this would make the gospel too good to be true.

1929 Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said:

[mercyngrace]

Telestial Kingdom is reserved for those who have not a testimony of Christ but are Sons of Perdition.

Can I get a reference for this one, Frank?