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Biblical Authority


PacMan

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ELF,

You wrote:

Wow, Pot meet Kettle...

How ridiculous. Vance admitted he didn't even bother reading my whole post. You may be of the opinion that I haven't tried hard enough to understand your beliefs, but you cannot plausibly claim that I answer people's posts before reading them.

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Continues pt 2 from above-

PacMan in quotes unless otherwise noted.

HP Quote

Evangelicals often find themselves in these roles as the Holy Ghost prompts them, situating the Christian in these priestly activities.
<<<And use them to molest boys lost in the mega-churches of the South. Again, you need to explain where the safety stop on the slippery slope is or it is unacceptable because God wouldn
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Hick,

I wanted to comment on a previous statement you made in the Cornelius thread, which is more relevant here:

Note, from Ephesians 4:

There is one body, that is, one church. And they have apostles, etc. Such are required within the church 'till we all come in the unity of the faith.' Please explain how you get around this, because I find it very explicit and very clear.

PacMan

Another Thread?

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Pacman,

It's interesting that Rob and Hick are promoting a God who "changes" methods half way through the story.

Mal. 3: 6

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

I also have to disagree that Christs calling to be a High Priest by anointing and by the laying on of hands is not recorded in Scripture.

Heb. 1: 9

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Who was it that put his hands on Christ and anointed him with the oil? Why, His Father did of course!

Lev. 8

12 And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron

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Not just any "believer". Paul had been sent by authorized representatives. (see Acts 16:3)

Paul was sent by groups of Christians as in Acts 14:23. These assemblies of Christians prayed for directions by the Spirit. Paul was not sent out by other Apostles or a head Apostle other than Christ, the Apostle. This implies the authority of Christians in general.

Likewise, the call of Paul to be an apostle came directly from the Lord without either priesthood or church authority (Galatians 1:1,11,12). In fact, when he and Barnabas were called on their first missions, they were called by God's prophets in Antioch, not from Peter, James, or John in Jerusalem (Acts 13:1-4).

Acts 13: 4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia;

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Paul was sent by groups of Christians as in Acts 14:23. These assemblies of Christians prayed for directions by the Spirit. Paul was not sent out by other Apostles or a head Apostle other than Christ, the Apostle. This implies the authority of Christians in general.

Likewise, the call of Paul to be an apostle came directly from the Lord without either priesthood or church authority (Galatians 1:1,11,12). In fact, when he and Barnabas were called on their first missions, they were called by God's prophets in Antioch, not from Peter, James, or John in Jerusalem (Acts 13:1-4).

Acts 13: 4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia;

You forgot about this part.

Acts 13

3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

And this part.

Acts 11: 19-20, 22, 26-27

22

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Apostle Barnabas was sent by the congregation at Jerusalem to Antioch.

The "congregation" was lead by Peter.

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Who rehearsed his Table Cloth dream.

Then he sent Baranbus, who then enlists Paul.

25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Yes Acts 13 Paul is appointed to go on His mission. But not from Jerusalem.

But by local Christians. This was a case of Christians who were not Apostles sending Apostles on a Mission. These lower office Christians laid hands on them when they were appointed and sent by the Holy Ghost.

You also missed the fact that those who layed their hands on Barnabus and Saul before they went on their mission... came from Jerusalem also.

27

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The "congregation" was lead by Peter.

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Who rehearsed his Table Cloth dream.

Then he sent Baranbus, who then enlists Paul.

25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

You also missed the fact that those who layed their hands on Barnabus and Saul before they went on their mission... came from Jerusalem also.

27

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--------------

Thanks for your response

I think you are imposing a construct with several layers of assumptions on top of what the Acts 13 account actually reports. And also it appears to me that you are neglecting other details in the Acts 13 text that discredit your above analysis.

Acts 13 does not say that prophets from Jerusalem sent Paul on his Mission.

It does not say Peter either.

No assuming needed... Where did these "prophets" in the church of Antioch come from?

Hint: Verse 1- "and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch"

They where the prophets who came from Jerusalem earlier. (Acts 11:27) Manaen was raised in the royal palace at Jerusalem after all.

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No assuming needed... Where did these "prophets" in the church of Antioch come from?

Hint: Verse 1- "and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch"

They where the prophets who came from Jerusalem earlier. (Acts 11:27) Manaen was raised in the royal palace at Jerusalem after all.

These are inspired Christians who have the gift of prophecy. They were numerous, not just one who filled a head office as in Mormonism.

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These are inspired Christians who have the gift of prophecy.

They do not appear to be filling the same role as the President of the LDS Church at all.

You're right... they appear to be acting in the capacity of one of the 12 Apostles, Prophets, Seers and Revelators of the LDS church.

Remember they came from Jerusalem to Anitoch being sent with Barnabus by Peter to fulfill his table cloth vision. To find and seek out Paul the chosen vessel to fullfill it.

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James sure seems to be acting in an offical High Leadership capacity here...

Acts 21

17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul.

33 Then the chief captain came near, and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and demanded who he was, and what he had done.

34 And some cried one thing, some another, among the multitude: and when he could not know the certainty for the tumult, he commanded him to be carried into the castle.

Notice how the edicts of how the Gentiles should conduct themselves is coming from James in Jerusalem? Remember Peter was party too the original edict sent to the Gentiles in verse 25 (see Acts 15)

Acts 15

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

So as we see Jerusalem was the spiritual headquarters.

Barnabus and Paul where both sent by the Apostles in Jerusalem along with Judas and Silas. How more specific do you need it to be Hick?

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You're right... they appear to be acting in the capacity of one of the 12 Apostles, Prophets, Seers and Revelators of the LDS church.

Remember they came from Jerusalem to Anitoch being sent with Barnabus by Peter to fulfill his table cloth vision. To find and seek out Paul the chosen vessel to fullfill it.

That is an amazing assertion.

The offices of the 12 were then filled by other men.

Simon Peter.

Andrew his brother.

James son of Zebedee.

John his brother.

Philip.

Bartholomew.

Thomas.

Matthew.

James son of Alphaeus.

Thaddeus.

Simon the Cananean.

And Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed him.

And there is a difference between an Apostle (missionary) and an Apostle of Christ, and Christ the Apostle. Paul ,like Peter, James and John, was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Barnabus is known as an Apostle (missionary) to Antioch and Cyprus( not formally an "Apostle of Christ").

Even by the time of the writing of the Apostle John's apocalypse the names of the original 12 were renouned- this is because the originals were 'Apostles of Christ'.

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James sure seems to be acting in an offical High Leadership capacity here...

Acts 21

17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul.

33 Then the chief captain came near, and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and demanded who he was, and what he had done.

34 And some cried one thing, some another, among the multitude: and when he could not know the certainty for the tumult, he commanded him to be carried into the castle.

Notice how the edicts of how the Gentiles should conduct themselves is coming from James in Jerusalem? Remember Peter was party too the original edict sent to the Gentiles in verse 25 (see Acts 15)

Acts 15

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

So as we see Jerusalem was the spiritual headquarters.

Barnabus and Paul where both sent by the Apostles in Jerusalem along with Judas and Silas. How more specific do you need it to be Hick?

Didn't you read Acts 13?-- Paul was sent by the Holy Ghost, under the hands of Christians whose rank is reckoned by Catholic and LDS hierarchy were lower than that of 'an Apostle of Christ'. The Apostles of Christ are not the same as simply being an Apostle(missionary)- like Barnabas. Paul calls himself "An Apostle of Christ" There were other Apostles too, but a limited number of 'Apostles of Christ'. Among all the teachers and prophets at Antioch that laid hands on Paul there was none that was an Apostle of Christ. This would be a situation in the LDS system where an LDS Ward Elder's quorum member would be ordaining someone the office of the 12 Apostles. And you are arguing that that is OK because the Elder used to live in Salt Lake City.

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Didn't you read Acts 13?-- Paul was sent by the Holy Ghost, under the hands of Christians whose rank is reckoned by Catholic and LDS hierarchy were lower than that of 'an Apostle of Christ'. The Apostles of Christ are not the same as simply being an Apostle(missionary)- like Barnabas. Paul calls himself "An Apostle of Christ" There were other Apostles too, but a limited number of 'Apostles of Christ'. Among all the teachers and prophets at Antioch that laid hands on Paul there was none that was an Apostle of Christ. This would be a situation in the LDS system where an LDS Ward Elder's quorum member would be ordaining someone the office of the 12 Apostles. And you are arguing that that is OK because the Elder used to live in Salt Lake City.

I read Acts 13... you missed the fact that these... "Christians" had already been sent from Jerusalem.

Acts 13

1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Acts 11

27

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